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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 2, 2004 20:24:40 GMT -8
Whom do you say Yeshua The Messiah is?
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Post by el Gusano on Aug 2, 2004 20:34:29 GMT -8
You better watch out with questions such as that: I had a friend who was asked to leave a church because he asked, "what must I do to be saved?"
Seriously, questions such as this can be quite controversial, even if they don't appear to be on the surface. Should lead to some edifying discussion.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 2, 2004 20:45:27 GMT -8
Whom do you say that Yeshua The Messiah is?  |
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Post by el Gusano on Aug 2, 2004 22:33:08 GMT -8
May I let Peter speak for me?
Mt 16:16
Now answering, Simon Peter said, "Thou' art the Christ, the Son of the living *God."
Note the emphatic use of four definite articles? It says the Christ, the Son, the God, the Living. I don't think there's any room for doubt here, eh?
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Post by azumah on Aug 3, 2004 15:18:34 GMT -8
Exactly who HE says HE is.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 3, 2004 15:29:10 GMT -8
Who does He say He is?
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Post by azumah on Aug 3, 2004 15:49:58 GMT -8
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Post by holdingontoTruth on Aug 3, 2004 21:15:21 GMT -8
Shalom, I am new.
Here are two important verses about the Messiah and what his early followers saw him as..
Peter's witness
Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, here these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know;"
Paul's witness
Acts 17:31 "Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the word in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; concerning which he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
Andrew in Nor Cal.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 4, 2004 10:01:26 GMT -8
Shalom, and welcome Holdingontotruth,  Is it possible that this "man" be a direct manifestation of the living G'd...the very essence of Elohim? Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by azumah on Aug 4, 2004 12:45:59 GMT -8
Amen Brother!
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Post by holdingontoTruth on Aug 4, 2004 21:35:17 GMT -8
Reuel,
In answer to your question...I will just stick with the text.
John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth"
Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?”<br>
Hosea 11:9 “I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim; for I am God, and not man, the Holy One in the midst of thee, and I will not enter into the city.”<br>
shalom,
holdingontoTruth
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 4, 2004 22:40:18 GMT -8
Yes, and is it possible that Yeshua was not mearly a man like you, or I...but, a direct manifestation of The Father? Let's take a look...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G'd, and the Word was G'd.
The same was in the beginning with G'd.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
John 1:1-5
Two things to point out in the above passage...(1) The Word (Yeshua) was in the beginning with G'd, and the passage witnesses that the Word was G'd. Not only that, but all things were created by the Word. We see it again in the next passage. Let's continue reading...
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of G'd, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of G'd.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
- John 1:10-14
According to the above..."the Word was made flesh".
When looked upon in this light, perhaps the verses you quoted take on a different meaning than what you are seeing. Again, the above passages clearly show that "the Word" (Yeshua) created all things, and indeed became flesh. Now, the TeNaKh says that G'd created all things...
"To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth."
- Isaiah 40:25-26
I believe the answer to the first sentence would be... Yeshua The Messiah, as He is the only one that is actually one with The Father...
"I and my Father are one."
- John 10:30
Yeshua is the only one that this can be said of for we can see again in the following passage the witness to the fact that through Yeshua HaMashiach all things were created...
"Who is the image of the invisible G'd, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
- Col. 1:15-17
Yeshua The Messiah is a direct manifestation of the Almighty Father. He "is the image of the invisible G'd".
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Aug 5, 2004 6:50:26 GMT -8
Yohshuah HaMoshiach At Moshiach Echad, He is the only Moshiach and He and His father are one in mind, but not in body; if such a term can be used when speaking of the divine. He cannot be reborn and he is the savior of us from the Evil Inclination.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 5, 2004 8:02:26 GMT -8
Was Yeshua not one in Spirit with the Father? Did Yeshua HaMashiach have an Evil Inclination? Any comments on the passages above beside John 10:30?
Shalom achi,
Reuel
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Post by holdingontoTruth on Aug 5, 2004 21:41:53 GMT -8
Yeshua may have been in literal existence in the beginning...as 'the Word' ..as some type of being...'heavenly man' or something...I don't know.
It may also be that this whole section in John 1 is teaching us that it was with the Messiah in mind..and through that thought and for Him that all was made. This would also fit the Talmud statement that the Name of the Messiah was known/created before the earth was created. We know YHVH created through speaking...so that answers the Word question. It may just be a concept that is being personified...like Wisdom is in Proverbs...called a 'she' etc. We never take 'her' and make her a literal person or member of a 'Godhead' do we?
Also, remember the text that says Messiah was crucified before the foundation of the world? Do we take that literally? I don't. I take it to mean that the plan was in place from the beginning.
If Yeshua was in the beginning...literally...He was still brought forth from the Father...who is greater than Him. Brought forth implies that there was a time when he did not exist. The fact that he has a Father...shows that his Father was before him.
There is something though that people should really think about. Yeshua was a man. The text says it over and over again. Yet when it is brought up...people ask..was he really a 'man' ? Yes, he was a man. An annointed man..filled to fulness with the Spirit of God. I think of Him like the Temple. A Holy Place...where God manifests...people go there to meet YHVH. The temple was never thought of as God himself...but the 'door' so to speak...into His presence. This is how I see Yeshua.
He is also show to be our Cohen Gadol (high priest). A Cohen Gadol is the mediator...and is always human. He offers intercession on our behalf..to our God and His God.
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua"
We are told in 1 John that we need to believe Yeshua is the Messiah and that He came in the flesh. I believe this. He did not just appear to be a man..but truly was a man. He was tempted in every way like we are..but without sin.
now..to this whole evil inclination thing...if the Jewish concept of yetzer tov/yetzer hara is true...then i guess Moshiach would have both too..if he was truly tempted as we are. I'm not sure.
holdingontoTruth
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from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
