Shalom all,
well I think this is an important topic and leads to some bad theologies out there depending on how this question is answered. let me just catch up to speed,
I agree the Son wasn't praying to himself, Reuel you said that it is as the body that communicates with the brain but is one being, actually I see it this way, you can cut off your arm and your brain still works, but you can't cut off your brain and have a functioning arm. there is only one athority in the body and that is the brain, it directs everything else, an arm is not a being by itself nor does the brain turn into the arm, the arm is a servant of the brain. anyway that seems kinda out there, let's get to some scriptural work on this subject.
the first note is the model of the Father turning into his son to dwell with us doesn't fit the model we have for the Father, which is he doesn't dwell with the unclean, this model is all through the temple scriptures, if it is unclean he does not dwell to help clean it up, actualy the priests that serve him must get it clean for him to dwell there. next the same point is in
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
how can he interceed for us at judgment if he is the Father to interceed you need 3 people 2 parties and a neutral party. and think of the time setting, those who believe the Father is the son well if that is true he was the Father then came in flesh ok then when does he go back to the Father or if he doesn't then why is he needed to interceed for us to himself there would be no real intercession. second lets look at the time when he as people qoute became flesh and dwelt with us,
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
two things here first he says he spoke through prophets, so are the prophets a manifestation of YHWH, because this whole sentence compares that he spoke through prophets first then speaks to us through his Son, doesn't mention becoming his son, next, if he did become flesh to dwell with us when he was born, then why does he say he used him to make the worlds, it discreditd that he had to manifest himself to dwell in flesh, because he had no need to pretend to be his son in creation there was no flesh made yet.
next we have more problems ,
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
here the Son is compared to angels getting a better inheritance and name, then in this time when he is begotton he says he will be a Father to him, if it is him why is he making this promise to himself, if this is pre birth he would be the only one listening, second why would he tell his own angels to worship him if he was God they would already know to worship him.
next comment is that sitting on the right hand is just a hebrew saying, but
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
here is saying the Father never told this to any angel, a second witness to this not just being a hebrew idiom is this
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
here he is not talking but seeing a vision and in the vision he sees the Son of man standing on the right hand of God, let's see what Messiah says to his disciples about the time in the kingdom AFTER he reveals himself to all.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
was he just dodging the question knowing it was his decision? Again we see in mark
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
how do you sit next to yourself? lets see it plainly as I think the teaching of the Father being the Son is as unnatural as it sounds.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Notice David puts a distinction between theLORD (YHWH) saying to his Lord (Yahushuah) and the conversation is between the Father telling his son to sit next to him. also it says God Made Jesus, usually the creator makes the created. The problem with this teaching is there are countless flat out easy to understand verses contrary to it, and just a few verses they can't understand so they came up with the Father equals the Son. like john 1. but lets keep looking at the scriptures. this is not meant to talk about someones belief, but talk to the teaching and were it comes from.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
here they are real clear about specifically who they are talking about the God of their Fathers and Jesus. interesting here they mention 2 thrones
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
if in this time of final ruling and he revealed himself to us why mention both with the key word and IF the Father was the son wouldn't just say from the throne of GOd, but there are two thrones here the main throne that the Father sits on, the highest authority and the the throne on the right for his son, just the same in history where the main throne sits forward and then there are smaller thrones for the sons of the king to the right and left.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
who is the God of God? if he is the same person, now he would have another above him and the first commandment gets weird. or just as it says the Son's God is his Father.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
my question is here it is kindom time and Yahushuah takes the book of life from who sitting on the throne? either it's his Father, not himself or someones sitting my chair
someones eating my porrage!
not to beat the dead horse, but one more
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
if he is God why does he then give himself authority and make the angels listen to himself, the concept falls apart. if he is God they are already subject to him, and who then if he is God is above him to make them obey Him, it is the Father who then gives him authority and in turn makes the angels subject to his son.
Ok worlds longest post probably, but there are alot more scriptures to discredit the Father being the Son. Nottzriyehudi I am interested in talking with you about the 4 levels as this is an area I study and would love to chat, my email is raw_q@hotmail.com and please get ahold of me. Shalom all
Thanks for pointing those out.
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someones eating my porrage!
