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Post by jimmie on May 10, 2010 9:08:49 GMT -8
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Sin is the transgression of the law and the whole world is guilty of sin before God and Jews do not constitute the whole world, it seems simple that the law applies to all not just the Jews. The nation of Isreal’s purpose was to bring all people to that understanding not to become self center and construct barriers to their entrance into God’s rest.
Matt. 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Post by jimmie on May 4, 2010 14:03:54 GMT -8
Josh 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.
3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not show them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.
8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the people, that they abode in their places in the camp, till they were whole.
9 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.
10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
This is the third recorded passover observance. And all of the male children born during the wilderness journey were circumcised prior to partaking of the passover. Titus and the Ephesian, that Paul was accused of taking into the temple, had the same standing as did these Israelites who were not circumcised.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 30, 2010 10:09:48 GMT -8
Rom. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
I Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
If Christ ended the law, then didn’t he also end faith by granting salvation?
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Post by jimmie on Apr 30, 2010 9:12:39 GMT -8
You said you have more than enough on your hands trying to communicate your own ideas, without trying to learn Greek and Hebrew in addition. David, This is what I meant about not being able to get my concern’s/ideas across. What my words said to you is not even in the ball park of what I was trying to communicate. Which has happened several times on this thread. The reason I quote scripture is because it does a better job of expressing what is in my heart, things that I can’t get into words. At least not words that can be understood by others. If I may draw upon scripture for an analogy of how I feel. I Sam: 17:39 And David girded his sword upon his armour, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him. With my KJV, I am somewhat useful. When strapped with Greek, Aromatic, and Hebrew, I am totally useless. It took me two hours last night to prove to myself that the chiastic in Gen. 4 in the KJV existed in the Hebrew text. Man I sure wouldn’t want to try to use Hebrew to convince someone of something. It just doesn’t fit. But, if the “armour” fits you, by all means use it. Maybe someday, I will be able to “prove” it myself. Jimmie |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 27, 2010 14:07:49 GMT -8
Would you look in your Hebrew Bible at chapter four and see if there per-chance is a chiastic of the structure ABBAABBA that compares Cain(A) and Abel(B)? Knowing even less about poetry and literary styles than I do about Hebrew, I was researching chiastics and was directed to this one in the KJV. When you first brought it up, I thought you were talking about musical scales. Some of the time, I amaze myself as to how dumb I am. When I read Psalms and Proverbs next time, I imagine I will be able to spot a few on my own. is it really okay to trivialize the holy tongue as if it's less important than our own opinions? What are you talking about? |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 27, 2010 9:14:15 GMT -8
Okay, let me try to repeat what you are trying to tell me in my terms to see if I got it. I read some where on this site that the Hebrew term for God appears as an acrostic in the book of Ester. What you are saying is that an equivalent acrostic may not be able to be constructed in any English Bible even though the meaning of the text is accurately conveyed. This may not be a good example as we don’t know if the acrostic is intentional or not. Nor to we know if the Acrostic “SON” is intentional when we take the first letter of chapters 7,8, & 9 in the KJV. The three chapters, by the way, which just happen to show the salvation of the Jews. If I where to show that to my old Baptist preacher, he could preach on it for a month of Sundays. Now we've swapped horses. You're now saying "It's not necessary for me to learn Hebrew" and that's a horse of a different colour. I was simply arguing that it would be beneficial. If I said that, I apologize. You may have to learn Hebrew for a degree. I have a hard time getting my concerns/ideas across to others. |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 26, 2010 14:12:38 GMT -8
Nuance: A slight degree of difference in meaning
Idiom: A speech form or expression of a given language that is peculiar to itself grammatically or that cannot be understood from the individual meanings of it element.
An example of an English Idiom is “one who flew over the coco’s nest” for idiot. Now Idiom and Idiot have a common root that means private. However the idea of a private idiom can be preached form a roof top, whereas the thoughts of an idiot can’t be conveyed. Maybe I am handicapped by being unilingual, but to me a thought that can not be translated into another language is idiotic. Or, indeed the “idiom/thought” is elevated to being God which scriptures says we can’t understand.
I seldom try to imply or assume anything about some one else. I try to explain how their words are coming across to me. If something can’t be translated, it sounds private to me. The only thing I may have assumed about Mr. Nogalski is that he would be quite capable of speaking well over my intellect. I know myself much better than either you or Mr. Nogalski. I want you both to know were I’m coming from and be prepared to meet me on my ground and convince me were I am wrong. I am the one with the push here dummy degree. I can’t, at this time, be impressed with someone throwing around Hebrew words unless they are followed by English translations.
David said:
You have to understand, the more I learn about languages the more preposterous translation becomes to me.
I guess, I can’t understand what you say that I must. When I see that, it looks like Gnosticism.
II Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now, since we are both missing each others nuances and idioms, I would like to change my approach somewhat, so that my concerns are better expounded. I think. In the simplest English terms that I can muster:
Is Hebrew the Comforter?
John14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Is Hebrew the source of Christ’s knowledge/power?
Mark 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Must I speak Hebrew in order for someone to know that I have been with Jesus?
Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Will they listen if I speak Hebrew?
Acts 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
...
21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 26, 2010 9:15:44 GMT -8
To those who believe in the pre-millianal rapture:
Jer. 28:6 Even the prophet Jeremiah said, Amen: the LORD do so: the LORD perform thy words which thou hast prophesied,...
But I not convinced.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 26, 2010 9:07:11 GMT -8
David, Thanks for your time in discussing this subject with me. From the way you use the term “Idiom”, it makes it sound to me that II Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” is a false statement. I’m I seeing yet not seeing what you are trying to tell me? There is a principle that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. When you tell me that a thought exists in Hebrew, that can’t be conveyed into another language, that is when I have a problem. The translator may have to invent a new word in the target language, but the whole of the thought can be translated. I think the King of Babylon got the full meaning from Daniel about the hand writing on the wall. There was no need for Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to say, Daniel a better or more accurate translation would have been thus and thus. Again, I am not opposed to learning Hebrew. As I hang around this site, I am sure to pick up some Anglicanized Hebrew, but I don’t expect it to make me more legitimate in the eyes of God. While I would welcome any comments that Mr. James D. Nogalski may have on this subject, I ask you to consider David’s words: Ps 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. In order to understand those strong pastoral idioms in the bible, would some time spent in a pasture be valuable? The pasture is where I got my PHD (push here dummy) from. I may not be able to understand Mr. Nogalski. So ask him to keep it simple. I guess what I am trying to say is one can know the Hebrew language and still miss the “pastoral idioms”. The Bible is replete with those who spoke Hebrew but missed the point anyway. Webster did die after Gesenius but he was born 26 years earlier. Thus not as far removed historically as Gesenius. Why do you trust Gesenius more? If you read German and Gesenius helps you understand the God of Israel then Hallelujah. (Sorry about showing off 50% my knowledge of Hebrew in one word). I don't believe that Hebrew was chosen because it was holy. I believe that it is holy because it was chosen. I don't believe Israel is chosen because she is holy, I believe Israel is holy because it is chosen. Amen! (Rats, I done used up my entire repertoire of Hebrew words in one post.) Yes what God chooses he makes Holy. |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 23, 2010 13:42:13 GMT -8
David, Sign language interpreters get better that 50% of the information across to their audiences. I would think a translator would be able to approach 100% unless he had a motive to do otherwise. If 50% of the information is lost in translation, what good would it do a nation to spend millions of dollars to steal top secret documents from other countries? Only knowing one language may place me at a disadvantage but, I have never learned more from Strong’s work than I have Webster’s work when studying the Bible. Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? It seems pretty plain that every one heard what was said in their own language of which15 are listed. The only Jew that I know pass away a few years ago. He could chat several prayers and songs in Hebrew, but he had no more idea what he said than I did. Then, on the other hand, I meat a Christian who uses so much Hebrew when he speaks, I can’t follow what he is trying to say. And he wonders way English speaking people don’t respond to him when he witnesses to them. They can’t because they don’t understand what he is saying. I wonder how effective Paul would have been if he couldn’t speak Greek. I think it vital that every one be able to hear/understand the word of God in his own tongue. I don’t want anyone to think that I am opposed to learning Hebrew. I do however think my time would be better spent in other endeavors than to learn a language that I will most likely never get to speak to someone who uses it as his native tongue. The same God who created language chose to reveal Himself to our ancestors in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. All things proceed from Him, but some things are sacred, and others are ordinary." This is heart of the subject for me. Is scripture sacred because of the language that they were revealed to us in? Did God choose Hebrew to reveal Himself to us because it had some special attribute that others don’t? Did God choose Israel because they had some special attribute that other nations don’t? |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 22, 2010 7:07:37 GMT -8
I noticed that you use two different bible translations to show your “contradiction”. I would be interested to see if either are in harmony with its’ self as is the KJV.
I Kings 6:11 And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,
12 Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:
13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.
14 So Solomon built the house, and finished it.
Acts 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
47 But Solomon built him an house.
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Dwell: to live as a resident. God dose not live in temples made by hands.
Dwell: to fasten one’s attention upon. God will pay attention to those who keep his laws.
I see no contradiction in these passages.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 19, 2010 14:11:57 GMT -8
I need to make a correction to my last post. 24 hours should have been 48 hours. If you mean that Yeshua rose at the end of Shabbat towards the dawning of the first day around the time of havdalah, than I would agree with you. That is what I meant. I also like the table. There is one detail misssing on Nisan 10th. that is when the passover lamb was to be selected. Matt 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill him. |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 19, 2010 14:00:54 GMT -8
Reuel,
Denying that Jesus is the Son of God is breaking a command.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
The wages of sin is death. No matter how “small” or “great” the sin. Jesus fulfiled the requirement of death for the joint heirs. However there are some who have tasted the gift but are not joint heirs.
Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How could Jesus tell these people that he “never knew” them, if they were once counted as heir? If one divorces his wife he can never say he “never knew” her. These were never counted as joint heirs/sons.
David Ben Yosef,
Yes, words do have definitions. I look forward to your comments in regards to the meaning of salvation. I, too, have some reservations of how the state church defines it. I have “sold” a fire insurance policy or two myself.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 16, 2010 9:02:55 GMT -8
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It appears that Jesus expected some who broke some commandments and though others to do likewise would be in the kingdom of heaven.
I cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It appears that Paul expected some folks to be saved even though their works were not acceptable.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 15, 2010 14:40:38 GMT -8
ken,
The problem that I have with this time line is day number 6. Why didn’t the women come to anoint the body on the day six? Way pass it up and wait until the 1st to do so. Here is an alternate. My basic assumption is that Jesus’ time in the “heart of the earth” begins with the kiss of betrayal. He spends that night (1) in trial, the day (1) in trial and being placed on the cross. There is darkness from the 6th to 9th hour. That’s night (2). There is day light from the 9th to the 12th hour. That’s day (2). He spends Sabbath night (3) and day (3) in the grave. That’s thee days and nights in the heart of the earth in 24 hours.
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