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Post by Golfnerd on Apr 28, 2006 23:56:07 GMT -8
Discuss
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Post by Blake on Apr 29, 2006 10:17:46 GMT -8
When using the word "Rapture" most people think about people mysteriously vanishing a la Left Behind... Rapture actually means "To be Caught Up" in reference to 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The picture that verse paints is not of a poof christians disappear but obviously to a very decisive Second Advent where Y'shoshua HaMoschiach leaves the right hand of the El-Shaddai and comes to Earth to collect his people, ressurecting those who have fallen asleep and begin the Messianic Millenium. The very essence of the word Rapture implies someone visibly rising to the heavens to meet their Saviour. The Secret Rapture has absolutely no basis in Scripture and is an obvious symptom of the complacentness that Christianity has fallen too. "Don't worry, say this prayer and your saved! Sin all you want, you'll be taken in the secret rapture and won't suffer anything hard!" A great salespitch which makes the Southern Baptist Convention a lot of money in the tithes of deceived. What about all the martyrs that suffered under Roman Oppression. Fed to the Lions, crucified, tortured in many grievious ways. Remember the martyrs that fell to Descendant of Rome, the Catholic Church. What makes anyone think God would allow them to suffer, and spirit away those of this wicked generation? The Time of Trouble is near, be prepared! Gird yourself with the things of HaShem. Streangthen your faith and walk in path laid out by the Holy  . If you can't pass the small tests of obedience, how could you hope to remain faithful when your life is at stake? |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 29, 2006 18:07:36 GMT -8
Well put!
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Post by messimom on Apr 29, 2006 18:28:33 GMT -8
I don't think there will be a rapture per say. I believe we may meet Yeshua in the air as quoted above by blake, but scripture seems to indicate to me anywhere that the millenial reign is detailed that Yeshua will be more down here with us, than us up there with Him.
Now, rapture in the sense of being saved from evil, harm, HaSatan...I agree. I just don't think we'll have see through bodies, floating around and all on puffy clouds in "heaven".
Messimom
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 30, 2006 7:24:48 GMT -8
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Post by Blake on May 1, 2006 9:40:14 GMT -8
I don't think there will be a rapture per say. I believe we may meet Yeshua in the air as quoted above by blake, but scripture seems to indicate to me anywhere that the millenial reign is detailed that Yeshua will be more down here with us, than us up there with Him. Now, rapture in the sense of being saved from evil, harm, HaSatan...I agree. I just don't think we'll have see through bodies, floating around and all on puffy clouds in "heaven". Messimom From my understanding of the Scriptures (which by no means in infallible) the Millenial reign will not be on this Earth but from the abode of Heaven. The verse I previously quoted mentioned nothing of the Messiah's feet even touching this Earth. I believe this is the key to understanding the nature of the Lawless One, the Spurious Messiah who walks the Earth and will deceive many. Why would be rise to the heavens with the righteous dead, just come right back down? What would the importance of the 1000 years if the New Jeruselum is established at its beginning? The Messiah's kingdom will last forever, and I see it as not happening until the end the millenium. Messiah sits at the right hand of El-Shaddai! Surely the glory and radience of his coming would destroy those who did not receive incorruptible bodies in the twinkling of the eye. "Then the Torahless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming;" 2nd Thessalonians 2:8 It is important to emphasize also that we will not float around playing harps during this time, but rest from our work of spreading the Godd News and asking the questions of the Almighty and examining the judgment so we can testify for all of eternity the perfect Justice of HaShem. The timeline as expect it goes like this: Ya'akov's Time of Trouble (Sometimes called the Tribulation) The Second Advent, Ressurection of the Righteous, First Death of the Wicked The Millenium the saints will spend in heaven, in which the Earth lays desolete where HaSatan is imprisoned. The Establishment of the New Yarushalim, the Messiah and Saints return to the Earth and Ressurection of the Wicked of all the generations and the little season HaSatan will be loosed. HaSatan riles up the nations to make war on the New Yarushalim, the last Great Battle of Har-Megiddo which will not fought with swords or guns, but with the cleansing flames of a Lake of Fire in which the wicked shall suffer each according to their sins and then shall be utterly destroyed along with fallen ones. The great Deceiver Azazel shall burn not only for his own sin, but for all the sins he caused the righteous to commit as well fulfilling the symbolism of Yom Kippur. The wiping of the tears from the Saint's eyes, then the renewal of Heaven and Earth to is Edenic harmony and perfection. Sin and evil will be only memories, the wicked ashes under our feet. Humanity will sing praises for all of eternity, testifying to the angels who didn't fall the perfect justice of HaShem in contrast to the suffering of rebellion. Oh I how I look foward to that day! No more suffering, no more death, no more pain. The moment after our tears are dried, we shall never shed tears again! |
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Post by Golfnerd on May 7, 2006 1:59:29 GMT -8
then have you considered Isaiah 60:8? Since we are going to have a glorified body just as Yehsua's, and we know that He just "appeared" in the room with the apostles, don't you think that we may have "special" properties? |
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Post by messimom on May 7, 2006 10:27:46 GMT -8
It was actually me who made the comment, not Natanel, just to clear up any confusion there may have been.
Now, let me say, I don't disagree with you about the glorified bodies. And we may very well have special properties. What I was referring to more is the idea that I believe we will also remain on a glorified earth. We will not live in heaven (save those specifically spoken about in Revelation--144,000 I believe). I was poking fun at the traditional view of dead people floating on puffy clouds with feather wings, shiny brass halos (pagan) and harps in the hand.
I think it will me much more like the Earth restored to the Garden of Eden. And from what I can see, all will be vegetarian again, for the lamb to lay down with the wolf, etc.., and for a child to be in charge of them. So, the food chain will be drastically different also. Since the scriptures do not go into great detail about our perfected bodies, I don't think we have half a clue as to what we'll be like when we're perfected. We could have the ability to go through walls, fly or float distances. Also consider, there won't be a need for verbal communication between people. We may have 100% use of our brains and be telepathic, hey, maybe even telekinetic. Who knows? And there can be nothing but speculation at this point.
I haven't done any studies on the state of our beings after the return of Yeshua, so I don't claim to have insider knowledge on this subject by any means. These are just observances I have made througout my reading.
Shalom
Messimom
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 21, 2006 23:13:03 GMT -8
I believe Avinu will honor Yeshua's prayer.... "I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one." - Yochanan (John) 17:15 Anyone want to debate with Yeshua HaMashiach  Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Firestorm on May 23, 2006 13:18:39 GMT -8
???Long before I became Messianic I'd always believed Scripture should be looked at as a continuum. I can't see any ongoing thread in it on the theme of millions of people suddenly disappearing.
Surely something this significant would be alluded to at several points in the Tanach & Brit Hadasha.
The only thing I see is somebody taking a couple of verses out of context and imposing a fantastic interpretation upon them. Maybe many of you think I'm out to lunch here, but I concur with Blake that the Rapture is a wishful pipedream of a thoroughly materialistic church in extreme denial.
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on May 23, 2006 13:56:24 GMT -8
???Long before I became Messianic I'd always believed Scripture should be looked at as a continuum. I can't see any ongoing thread in it on the theme of millions of people suddenly disappearing. Surely something this significant would be alluded to at several points in the Tanach & Brit Hadasha. The only thing I see is somebody taking a couple of verses out of context and imposing a fantastic interpretation upon them. Maybe many of you think I'm out to lunch here, but I concur with Blake that the Rapture is a wishful pipedream of a thoroughly materialistic church in extreme denial. MT.24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is the word of Yeshua, the second coming and the resurrection of the dead. I believe him. Shalom |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on May 24, 2006 4:02:06 GMT -8
Yeah, I would agree that we're pretty much staying put.
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Post by Dogface Of Judah on May 24, 2006 17:53:32 GMT -8
Interesting view. Not so sure.
Ed
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Post by Pioneer on May 24, 2006 19:43:26 GMT -8
Interesting view. Not so sure. Ed Not so sure, What? You doubt that the speaker knows when the resurrection will take place? Or what? |
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Post by Dogface Of Judah on May 25, 2006 1:07:35 GMT -8
Ah!! I knew i would get some heat on this one.  . I will get back with you all soon. Just relax   Ed |
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