Is Torah Only for the Jews?

[Mpossoff]

Why or why not?

There seems to be two schools of thought within the Messianic movement.

One is One Law. Below is an explanation of the One Law.

Genitle inclusion is the mystery of the Gospel. More importantly, the inclusion, the grafting in, is the supernatural act of God.

For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this mystery (lest you be wise in yourselves), that hardness has come upon Israel in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;
And thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion; He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
And this is the covenant from Me with them, when I take away their sins."
According to the gospel thay are enemies for your sake, but according to the selection they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
For the gracious gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom. 11:25-29)

Inclusion in Israel is not the result of choosing to follow the Noach-ide laws or to go to synagogue or to convert to a sect of mainstream Judaism. These are all ways certain people have chosen to define other people in relation to themselves. Rather, God makes the covenant, takes away sins, irrevocably calls, and grafts in. In Messiah Yeshua, the status of the Gentile as a full participant in Israel is not predicated upon any tractate of the Talmud or other halach-ic ruling. No, the Gentile's position was bought with the blood of Messiah himself!

The true mystery and miracle is that those who were born Gentiles and who were without hope or God in the world, have been raised up and placed as part of the redeemed people of God. This is why Paul admonishes the gentiles to remember where they came from; so that they would not boast in themselves but in Him. What He has done was (and is), in man's eyes, impossible. But with God, all things are possible.

The other view is that there are different relationships of Jew and non-Jew in God's covenant.

Let's base this on scripture and not anything that mainstream Judaism and/or Orthodox Judaism.

Scripture.

Marc

[Mpossoff]

Here's some snippets from the view of the is for the Jews only.

What is meant by using Jew is:

that it is normally used both in Scripture and ordinary speech, to speak of the religious-national group claiming descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Normally this term is synonymous with “Israel” (as a people, not as the land), both in ordinary usage and in Scripture. (Thus, Paul repeatedly calls himself both a Jew and an Israelite; compare also Matthew 2:2, 6; 27:37, 42; Acts 2:5, 22, 36; 21:27-28.)

The repeatedly emphasizes the distinct identity and continuity of Israel. In Balaam’s vision, for example, Israel is called “a people that shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations” (Numbers 23:9, JPS). Deuteronomy 4:6-8 attributes Israel’s distinctiveness among the nations to its possession of .

Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him? And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

Israel, as we shall see, comprises the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, plus those who have joined themselves to them through circumcision. It is not a multi-national spiritual entity, but a recognizable people group among the nations of the world, tracing its physical descent from the patriarchs. It is this group that God promises to preserve and uphold throughout history.

Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever” (Jeremiah 31:35-36).

Unless one advocates some form of replacement theology, it is clear that Jeremiah is portraying a continuing Jewish identity as God-given, important, and to be preserved.

Marc

[Mpossoff]

“For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath”

One Law

Some who advocate a Jewish roots movement believe that Ya’akov is saying that Gentiles should be accepted “as is” because they will still hear the teachings of every week and gradually become more observant. In this view, circumcision and obedience cannot be required for salvation, but they (or at least obedience) are still the ideal, and can be instilled in Gentile believers through a gradual process of connection with the synagogue.

In other words, the Jewish elders were telling the non-Jewish believers that, as they participated in the holy community and in the synagogue on a weekly basis, they would grow in their understanding of the . Thus, in their wisdom, they knew the reality of Yeshua’s teaching that “My sheep know My voice and follow Me.” The is the voice of Yeshua, and these young lambs would hear and follow.

One applies all of automatically to all believers.

only for the Jews

The context, however, suggests that Ya’akov is saying something quite different. He is arguing that the Davidic dynasty—“the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down”—has been “rebuilt” through the appearing of Messiah. This is why the Gentiles are now seeking the Lord, as Gentiles, just as the prophet Amos foretold (15:16-17). Gentiles coming to know the God of Israel directly, apart from observance, is a sign that the Messiah has come.

Ya’akov says that Moses has been preached “throughout many generations,” but only now that Messiah has appeared is there a great ingathering of Gentiles. His emphasis is not that Moses is currently being read in the synagogues and available to the Gentile believers, but that Moses has been read in the synagogues for generations, without bringing the glorious changes, foretold by the prophets, that are now evident with the appearing of Messiah. Why would Ya’akov emphasize the generations-long study of Moses if his point were to encourage present-day Gentiles to come under his influence? Instead, he is contrasting this long and venerable tradition with the new conditions that prevail with Messiah’s appearing.

This interpretation is sustained when we read the letter that the Jerusalem elders sent out to “the brethren who are of the Gentiles” (15:23-29). This letter explicitly repeats the ruling of the Jerusalem council that Gentiles are to “abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” Then it concludes with no mention of hearing Moses in the synagogue, which concluded the original decision. The letter simply says: “If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” That’s it; no encouragement or even mention of participation in the synagogue at all. There is certainly no evidence that “the Jewish elders were telling the non-Jewish believers that, as they participated in the holy community and in the synagogue on a weekly basis, they would grow in their understanding of the ,” as in the quotation above.

Despite differing interpretations of Acts 15:21, one point is undeniably clear. applies to Gentiles differently than it applies to Jews, even within the body of believers. Ya’akov is certainly not anti-, but he gives a different weight among Jews than among Gentiles. The Jerusalem elders reiterate the contrast between Jewish and Gentile observance within the believing community in Acts 21:20-25. The frequently cited ordinance that “You shall have the same law for the stranger and for the native-born…” permitted Gentiles to participate in the life and worship of Israel, including circumcision. Only through such participation could one draw near to the God of Israel in the days before Messiah came. Now that Messiah has come, however, Gentiles have direct access to the God of Israel without becoming part of Israel, that is, being circumcised. Therefore, the Jerusalem Council specifically exempted the Gentile believers from the “same law” that would have applied to them if they sought to approach God through connection with Israel. “Therefore,” Ya’akov says, “I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood” (Acts 15:19-20) – certainly not the same law that applied to the Jewish believers.


Marc

[Mark]

Marc,

I haven't gottime this mrning to give your post the attention that it deserves. I understand your position. Please answer, does Adonai have a different standard or definition of sin and righteousness for the gentile than He does for the Jew?

[Mpossoff]

Mark I'm not in any position. I'm wishy washy.

I'm just posting both sides.

Marc

[Nachshon]

My main objection to the idea that is for the Jews only is this: we are told to go and make talmidim of all nations, and it is enough for a talmid to do what his master does, yes? Then we cannot make men talmidim of R. Yehoshu'a unless they are to follow the .
Like Marc, I don't have time at the moment to give your post the time it deserves. I apologize.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

HI Marc,

I have to admit that I was pretty annoyed when I went to work yesherday morning. I spent much of the day arguing against your position to people who stared blankly at me, wondering when I would go away and rant at someone else. We've all worked together for about ten years now, so they're used to me.

My biggest frustration is a very common habit in dispensationalist theology of changing the verb tense of a word so that they can accomodate their platform. In this case, it is changing the word "have" to "had". To interpret what James is saying Acts 15:21 in the past tense, Moses has been taught in the syangogues..." is a complete misrepresentation of the text.

We see the same tactic used in Romans 1:16 where we see the phrase "to the Jew first." The word "first" is defined (by the Church) ordinally (in sequence). For "first" to be defined ordinally, the phrase would follow would be "but now to the gentiles." Yet the text says, "but also to the gentiles" which makes the word "first" positional. This should be no surprise to us if we believe the words of our Messiah. In John 4:22, Messiah said (speaking as a Jew), "You don't know what you worship. We know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews."

All of this is to say that the gentile Church rejects, in rejecting the Jewishness of their faith, rejects the Bible as it is written, and demands that God accepts their form of worship on their terms, not on His.

In 2nd Thessalonians 2:15, Paul tells the gentile Church to "remember the traditions that I have taught to you..." What traditions, Christmas? And yet, if the command was that the gentiles should only avoid eating meats strangled, offered to idols, blood and fornication, what business does Paul have teaching them anything else?

In reference to Acts 15, a verse that most Bible teachers hope you never find is Galatians 2:10, when in describing the meeting in Acts 15, Paul says that the only requirement placed upon the gentiles is that they remember the poor. Now in English, it sounds like someone doesn't have their story sraight. Financial benevolence is not even mentioned in Acts 15. Buutin Greek, the word ptokhos means beggerly or destitute which describes the spiritual condition of the gentile community ripe in pagan idolatry. The description of the items in Acts 15 where specifically describing the pagan worship of the day. The requirements places in Acts 15 simply state that you can't serve Adonai and pagan idols at the same time.

The Christian position also conveniently changes the question between Acts 15:1 and Acts 15:20. The questioni was regarding requirements for entering into a relationship with Adonai, not for continued walking in it. Does one have to stop sinning before they can be saved? Absolutely not. Does one have to reject idolatry? Absolutely. The Acts 15 question is about what it takes to enter into the relationship.

Lastly, the phrase "ye do well" is not the same as "it is sufficient". We actually use the same idiom with our children today. If your third grade son comes home with an "A" on his report card, you say, "Great job!" But that doesn'y mean quit school. It means you're doing well. Keep going! The position that the Church takes in Acts 15 completely ignores all of the New Testament admonitions to avoid sin. One of my favorite examples when Acts 15 is brought up as a defense of antinomianism (rejection of ) is to say, "You mean homnosexuality is really okay?"

It is important to recognize who we are in the body of Messiah, whether Jew or gentile. The covenant relationship is given to the Jew, the promise is with Israel. We, as gentiles, are extended grace. Hallelujiah! This in no way lessens or limits the nature of the love of God, it rather extends it manifold. We are allowed access into the inheritance of God given to His people. Yet, we are allowed access and inheritance THROUGH His people. And he who enters in not through the gate sis counted as thief and a robber. I could expand more on this, but , as usual, I'm way over time.

Have a good prayer on this,

Mark

[Yitzchak]

Marc,

I have waffled on this position many time, but of late have been fully convinced by G-d through the scriptures that the is for both Jew and Gentile.

It is really quite simple. In Gen 35 HaShem makes the same promise to Yaacov that He had made to Avraham, and Yitzchak. However, the words used are just a little bit different. HaShem tells Yaacov, "I will make of you goy u'kahal goyim." What this states is that G-d is going to make of him a nation, and an assembly, company, or commonwealth of nations.

This is the first place that we see the promise made of the entity that G-d desired to establish. The only entity that G-d ever desired was the "commonwealth of Israel." The "church" was never part of G-d's plan.

When we understand the idea of the commonwealth being the entity that G-d desired, and that it was through physical Israel that G-d desired to bring forth this "commonwealth", then all one has to do is look to the rest of the scripture.

The most significant scripture to support this is Ephesians 2. Here Shaul tells the Ephesians that those who were Gentiles were formerly without hope, without G-d, aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, far from the promises and covenants of G-d. However, he goes on to tell them that they have now been brought near by the blood of Messiah. What have they been brought near too. Well, quite simply to all that were alien to, and far from. They are now brought near to the promises, to the covenants, and to the commonwealth. The language of this chapter actually says that they become citizens. Citizens of what? You guessed it, the commonwealth of Israel.

Now, if we recognize that the is a national constitution, given to Israel as a means to properly govern themselves, then it is also the constitution of the commonwealth. Thus, based purely on scripture, we see two things emerge. One is that the as the national constitution of Israel must remain in force, and two that all who come into the commonwealth of Israel become subject to not only the leader of the commonwealth, but His established Law. That established Law is the .

The problem we have today is that most people do not realize that they are part of the commonwealth when they come to faith in Messiah. Some believe that the church is the commonwealth, but they are wrong. Some recognize the commonwealth, but do not recognize its Law. We must be the ones to teach the truth regarding what the scriptures say.

While there are distinct callings for those born Jewish, and those not born Jewish, the bottom line is that when one comes to the commonwealth, and comes to the realization that is the Law of the commonwealth, it is incumbent upon them to obey this Law, whether Jew or Gentile.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mpossoff]

yitzchak said:

Marc,

I have waffled on this position many time, but of late have been fully convinced by G-d through the scriptures that the is for both Jew and Gentile.

It is really quite simple. In Gen 35 HaShem makes the same promise to Yaacov that He had made to Avraham, and Yitzchak. However, the words used are just a little bit different. HaShem tells Yaacov, "I will make of you goy u'kahal goyim." What this states is that G-d is going to make of him a nation, and an assembly, company, or commonwealth of nations.

This is the first place that we see the promise made of the entity that G-d desired to establish. The only entity that G-d ever desired was the "commonwealth of Israel." The "church" was never part of G-d's plan.

When we understand the idea of the commonwealth being the entity that G-d desired, and that it was through physical Israel that G-d desired to bring forth this "commonwealth", then all one has to do is look to the rest of the scripture.

The most significant scripture to support this is Ephesians 2. Here Shaul tells the Ephesians that those who were Gentiles were formerly without hope, without G-d, aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, far from the promises and covenants of G-d. However, he goes on to tell them that they have now been brought near by the blood of Messiah. What have they been brought near too. Well, quite simply to all that were alien to, and far from. They are now brought near to the promises, to the covenants, and to the commonwealth. The language of this chapter actually says that they become citizens. Citizens of what? You guessed it, the commonwealth of Israel.

Now, if we recognize that the is a national constitution, given to Israel as a means to properly govern themselves, then it is also the constitution of the commonwealth. Thus, based purely on scripture, we see two things emerge. One is that the as the national constitution of Israel must remain in force, and two that all who come into the commonwealth of Israel become subject to not only the leader of the commonwealth, but His established Law. That established Law is the .

The problem we have today is that most people do not realize that they are part of the commonwealth when they come to faith in Messiah. Some believe that the church is the commonwealth, but they are wrong. Some recognize the commonwealth, but do not recognize its Law. We must be the ones to teach the truth regarding what the scriptures say.

While there are distinct callings for those born Jewish, and those not born Jewish, the bottom line is that when one comes to the commonwealth, and comes to the realization that is the Law of the commonwealth, it is incumbent upon them to obey this Law, whether Jew or Gentile.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

Yitzchak I too have been wrestling with this. I have come to the same conclusion as you.

Here is a quote from another board:

Genitle inclusion is the mystery of the Gospel. More importantly, the inclusion, the grafting in, is the supernatural act of God.

For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this mystery (lest you be wise in yourselves), that hardness has come upon Israel in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;
And thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion; He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
And this is the covenant from Me with them, when I take away their sins."
According to the gospel thay are enemies for your sake, but according to the selection they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
For the gracious gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom. 11:25-29)

Inclusion in Israel is not the result of choosing to follow the Noach-ide laws or to go to synagogue or to convert to a sect of mainstream Judaism. These are all ways certain people have chosen to define other people in relation to themselves. Rather, God makes the covenant, takes away sins, irrevocably calls, and grafts in. In Messiah Yeshua, the status of the Gentile as a full participant in Israel is not predicated upon any tractate of the Talmud or other halach-ic ruling. No, the Gentile's position was bought with the blood of Messiah himself!

The true mystery and miracle is that those who were born Gentiles and who were without hope or God in the world, have been raised up and placed as part of the redeemed people of God. This is why Paul admonishes the gentiles to remember where they came from; so that they would not boast in themselves but in Him. What He has done was (and is), in man's eyes, impossible. But with God, all things are possible.

How do we get people to realize this? This is my passion to help people at least see it.

Marc

[Mpossoff]

Hi all this is a post by a Messianic Rabbi any comments?

I'll just give a quick answer at this point and hope that it helps. I think
the definitions for sin and righteousness would be the same for Jews and
Gentiles. Paul in particular, especially in Romans, is quick to point that
out. At the same time, some specific requirements for righteous living are
different. Most to the point, in Acts 15 it is assume that Jews will
continue to practice b'rit milah, circumcising their sons on the 8th day,
and this assumption is reflected throughout the New Testament, including in
Paul's letters. But Gentiles are not required to practice b'rit milah, and
are actively discouraged from doing so in Galatians. Different definitions
of righteousness? No, but different requirements for different people
seeking to live a righteous life. In a similar way we see different
requirements for men and women in some areas, although both are fully heirs
of life in Messiah.

Marc

[Mark]

A couple of problems I have with the "Messianic Rabbi's" position. The first is a typically dispensationalist handling of Paul's letter to the Galatians. ( I recommend spending some time with that thread). Circumcision, in a biblical context, was not what was being discouraged in Galatians; rather a misapplication of Scripture in order to dominate and manipulate the congregation.

The second thing that is completely ignored by those who wish to leave room for the gentile perspective (lifestyle) is the idea of "one body" found in Ephesians 4:1-6. The Bible does not any any way promote or condone segregationalism or caste society. The gentile is fully invited in, to be totally engrafted into this intrinsically Jewish faith. Keep reading, in Epheisians 4:17, Paul makes a clear distinction between the gentile and Jewish lifestyle, encouraging the gentiles in the congregation to take on a Jewish identity in their behavior.

Adonai is no respecter of persons. He also doesn't have differing weights of righteous behavior- those for Jew and those for gentile. In fact, He has chosen and blessed the Jewish people, calling them by His Name. The Church rejects this philosophy but Scripture is very clear: to fully participate in the worship of the God of the Jews is to be fully assimilated into the faith and practice of biblical Judaism.

[rory]

A snippet from:
www.therefinersfire.org/lets_get_biblical.htm

We love our Christian brethren, but the time has come to put an end to the "Jesus nailed it to the cross" argument and get Biblical: "Jesus" had another Name while He walked this Earth: Yeshua. He nailed to the cross the requirement to kill an innocent animal to atone for our sins; nothing more, nothing less. Belief in Yeshua means salvation/eternal life. But that in no way negates the need for , God's original teachings. The Bible tells us that anyone who wants to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be observant:

Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"

Some insist that " was only for the Jews", but as we can see from the above, that is not true. The "foreigners" include everyone who has chosen to believe in Yeshua! The Bible tells us God is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8); that Yeshua is God Incarnate; and that He and His disciples were all observant, seventh day Sabbath and Feast-keeping, kosher Jews. The Bible also tells us that His original followers in the First Century were all observant, as well. So what supposedly happened to change that?

Jeremiah 31:32 tells us that YHWH made His "new covenant" with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah; He did not make a "new covenant" with the Gentiles because He did not have an "old covenant" with the Gentiles! He did, however, extend His grace and mercy to the Gentiles who, once they become believers in Yeshua the Jewish Messiah, automatically become part of "Israel"! And God told Israel: "I give you good instruction: Do not forsake my " (Proverbs 4:2).

Therefore, it's high time to set the record straight and let the world know that Jesus "nailed to the cross" not , but the "documented opinions of Man" - the man-made traditions and interpretations that had forced their way into the Word of God. Yeshua even said He came NOT to abolish but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17-20). "Fulfill" did not mean "put an end to"; but rather, to "establish" or "confirm"! is our only blueprint for moral behavior, so why would it have been abolished at the cross? That makes no sense! Rav Sha'ul (Apostle Paul) said the following which most Christians seem to overlook: Romans 3: 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

[Prodigal Girl]

rory said:

A snippet from:
www.therefinersfire.org/lets_get_biblical.htm

We love our Christian brethren, but the time has come to put an end to the "Jesus nailed it to the cross" argument and get Biblical: "Jesus" had another Name while He walked this Earth: Yeshua. He nailed to the cross the requirement to kill an innocent animal to atone for our sins; nothing more, nothing less. Belief in Yeshua means salvation/eternal life. But that in no way negates the need for , God's original teachings. The Bible tells us that anyone who wants to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be observant:

Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"

Some insist that " was only for the Jews", but as we can see from the above, that is not true. The "foreigners" include everyone who has chosen to believe in Yeshua! The Bible tells us God is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8); that Yeshua is God Incarnate; and that He and His disciples were all observant, seventh day Sabbath and Feast-keeping, kosher Jews. The Bible also tells us that His original followers in the First Century were all observant, as well. So what supposedly happened to change that?

Jeremiah 31:32 tells us that YHWH made His "new covenant" with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah; He did not make a "new covenant" with the Gentiles because He did not have an "old covenant" with the Gentiles! He did, however, extend His grace and mercy to the Gentiles who, once they become believers in Yeshua the Jewish Messiah, automatically become part of "Israel"! And God told Israel: "I give you good instruction: Do not forsake my " (Proverbs 4:2).

Therefore, it's high time to set the record straight and let the world know that Jesus "nailed to the cross" not , but the "documented opinions of Man" - the man-made traditions and interpretations that had forced their way into the Word of God. Yeshua even said He came NOT to abolish but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17-20). "Fulfill" did not mean "put an end to"; but rather, to "establish" or "confirm"! is our only blueprint for moral behavior, so why would it have been abolished at the cross? That makes no sense! Rav Sha'ul (Apostle Paul) said the following which most Christians seem to overlook: Romans 3: 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

I disagree that what was nailed to the cross was the commandments, teachings of men. Although that is a creative interpretation, I do not believe that following traditions per se or the commandments of men are what necessitated His death on the cross, but our sin, our breaking of HIS commandments. Yes, sometimes sin does involve following after WRONG teachings of men. But to say that all teachings and traditions are wrong, is just not accurate. It is those teachings which contradict the commandments which are at issue. The focus should always be on HIS commandments and our relationship to them. EVERYONE from EVERY culture has all kinds of teachings and traditions. They are not necessarily bad or evil of themselves. Only when they contradict HIS word. There is WAY too much overcriticism coming from the church, of any "Jewish" customs and traditions. Yet any "Christian" (in particular, American evangelical) oriented cultural customs and traditions are beyond reproach.

[Mark]

Hi Prodigal,

I want to tell you that I agree with what the author said in the clipped article, that it was not that was nailed to the cross in Colossions 2:14.

The subject matter of the text is not whether or not people live in obedience to ; but rather if gentiles have access into the community of Elohim without proscelyting to Judaism. To suddenly nail all of the ordinances of God to the cross would be sharp left turn in the subject matter.

Secondly, has never been described as being against us. Contrarily, Paul describes it as holy and just and good (Romans 7:12).

Finally, the word translated "ordinances" in Colossians 2:14 is the Greek word "dogma" and is never once used in either the Greek New Testament nor the Greek Septuigent of the Old Testament to describe ; but is consistently used to distinguish from laws and injunctions given by men.

Paul uses the same terminology to give this message to the Ephesians:
Eph 2:10-17 KJV For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Hope this is helpful,

Mark

[Vaneide]

mark said:

A couple of problems I have with the "Messianic Rabbi's" position. The first is a typically dispensationalist handling of Paul's letter to the Galatians. ( I recommend spending some time with that thread). Circumcision, in a biblical context, was not what was being discouraged in Galatians; rather a misapplication of Scripture in order to dominate and manipulate the congregation.

The second thing that is completely ignored by those who wish to leave room for the gentile perspective (lifestyle) is the idea of "one body" found in Ephesians 4:1-6. The Bible does not any any way promote or condone segregationalism or caste society. The gentile is fully invited in, to be totally engrafted into this intrinsically Jewish faith. Keep reading, in Epheisians 4:17, Paul makes a clear distinction between the gentile and Jewish lifestyle, encouraging the gentiles in the congregation to take on a Jewish identity in their behavior.

Adonai is no respecter of persons. He also doesn't have differing weights of righteous behavior- those for Jew and those for gentile. In fact, He has chosen and blessed the Jewish people, calling them by His Name. The Church rejects this philosophy but Scripture is very clear: to fully participate in the worship of the God of the Jews is to be fully assimilated into the faith and practice of biblical Judaism.

Shabbat Shalom, Mark

Since I have been search the scripture and tray to understand what it say I also start to believe like that too. Unfortunately there are lots of messianic Jews who believes that gentile doesn't have to keep the entire like Jews does. For me if it's a obligation for Jews its also for the gentile, who also believes in the same Elohim and loves Him.

Vaneide.