Rapture?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In all reality the above verse could be describing what the TeNaKh very clearly describes and this is the regathering of Yisrael from the four corners of the Earth. The "elect" has always been synonymous with the Jewish people (a.ka. Yisrael).

I am "Pan Tribulation Rapture"...it will all pan out in the end

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Dogface Of Judah]

I like that Reuel and agree completely.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Noah was saved "from" the wrath of God in the flood, but he went through the hour! Lot was saved from God’s wrath, but he went through the hour. Jesus promises the Church He will keep them from the hour of trial coming on the whole earth.

The word "mystery" (Gk.musterion) in the New Testament refers to previously unrevealed Scripture. In other words Paul is telling us something here in approximately 59-60 A.D. that had never before been revealed by God: the subject of the rapture. This fact alone demands that none of the Words of Christ in Matthew 24 can refer to the rapture.

The scene before us is one in which the Lord is answering questions posed to Him by His disciples. And more than likely at this particular point the group was comprised completely of Jews. Jesus Christ has not yet died and the age of grace has not yet arrived, so 100% of what we find in the Gospel accounts is under law and not grace! None of the Old Testament prophets "saw" the Church Age because God did not reveal it to them—it was a divine "mystery"! And the Lord’s teaching here is perfectly consistent with that principle. He is instructing Jews as to what their "generation" will experience during the Tribulation Period, because the Church is nowhere in sight and yet to be revealed! Verses 4 through 13 describe conditions as the elect Jewish remnant will experience them during the dark days of the Tribulation Period—the "time of Jacob’s trouble."

Matthew 24, Verse 9, very clearly states that "….they will deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake." God is going to seal 144,000 Jews at the beginning of this awful time and it is to them this discourse is directed. Verse 13 has been misunderstood and misapplied by many in thinking that it we must "hold out to the end" in order to be saved, when in actual point of fact this is referring to the physical deliverance of the Jews who will still be alive at the Second Coming of Christ—at the end of the Tribulation Period!

Remember that this cannot possibly apply to Christians in any way shape or form, because at that particular point in time – when Jesus spoke Matthew 24 -- the Church itself was still a mystery. Notice what verse 14 says: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then the end shall come." The Gospel of grace was still unknown at that time! This "Gospel of the kingdom"—the message that both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ preached and the one to whom the Lord is referring—was "repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

And it will be preached again during the Tribulation Period by the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11:3. The end of the Tribulation Period—which will usher in the Second Coming of Christ—will not come until that specific gospel message has been heard by all the nations and through which they are told that the literal reign of Jesus Christ on earth is about to take place. At the time the Lord was telling His disciples this, He had just been rejected as King by the nation of Israel and knew that His words were for a future generation of their descendants. The Church is nowhere in view.

"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them" (Mark 13:9, KJV)

To the best of my knowledge, Jews have not made it a practice to bring Christians into their synagogues for any reason, much less to beat them! But during the Tribulation Period the 144,000 elect Jews will be persecuted by their own people as well as by the Gentiles.

Matthew 24 in its entirety is dealing with the Jews under law and not the Church under grace—both the Church and the rapture are, at that particular time, still mysteries hidden in the counsels of God.

The gathering together of God’s elect from "one end of heaven to the other" is "Immediately after the tribulation of those days…." This is Second Coming and not rapture. The "one taken and one left"—so often used to depict the rapture—actually refer to the separation of the sheep and goats pictured in Matthew 25:33, with those left being the ones to enter the millennial Kingdom. And that passage is, of course, in unbroken context and part of the Lord’s extended remarks regarding His Second Coming.

I personally believe we will see the Antichtrist and endure him for a while.

I also believe that the economic Babylon in Rev 18 is the United States which will be completely destroyed.

Messianic believers/Christians is what i mean by church age.




I have more, I maybe wrong.

Ed

[Pioneer]

DOJ, don't look now but your Christianity is showing!

[Dogface Of Judah]

Yes Pioneer i am a christian. I am being guided to this forum to learn. Are you saying true christianity is a bad thing?

Ed

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom chaverim,

We are all in a process of learning and should not be surprised if from time to time that we are wrong in regards to a sincerely held belief. I think we are in agreement that we will probably see much of the tribulation, but that The Father will shield us during that time.

Although, Yeshua did not come to start a new Religion and the Kohelet (Hebrew for Church) has always existed in one form or another. Again, Yeshua did not come to start a new religion...he came to teach Judaism done right.
In fact, what we know as Christianity today would be very foreign to Yeshua and His disciples. In regards to dispensationalism, The Father is the same yesterday, today, and forever and He does not change His mind. Messianic Judaism in general and this forum supports the following quote:

"Since Adonai is always the same, there are no ages of time or dispensations in which He works differently in principle. However, His Word declares an ongoing revelation, which accumulates throughout history. Dispensationalism calls biblical history “progressive revelation”, which implies that Adonai changes His principles as ages pass. We do not follow Dispensationalism. Our faith sees Adonai’s works as “cumulative revelation” to mankind. While Adonai’s principles remain constant, the revelation of Himself has been given out in pieces over time." - quote from MBI (Messianic Bureau International)

We can discuss this particular subject in more detail in another thread if you like. But, let's keep this thread on focus. All future responses on the subject of "dispensationalism" should be made in another thread dedicated to the subject of "dispensationalism" or they will be removed from this thread. I thank everyone for their cooperation.

Shalom b'Yeshua HaMashiach,

Reuel

[Dogface Of Judah]

Agreed, I'm still pre-trib

Ed

[Pioneer]

dogfaceofjudah said:

Yes Pioneer i am a christian. I am being guided to this forum to learn. Are you saying true christianity is a bad thing?

Ed

Christianity is 2000+ denominations, which one is "True Christianity"? If Christianity were the true Way You wouldn't be guided to this Messianic Forum.
I agree with Ryans post. God and his "Sent one" do not change, always the same, always true, based and solid.
Shalom

[Mark]

On old pastor from Georgia gave me my position on the rapture. I'm afraid I can't give you the raw flavor of his thick Negro lips and bright loving passionate eyes; but this is what he told me:

Dats de silliest ting to be argin-bout inywize. If de Lawd comes in de first a de week, haleluiah! If He comes in de middle a de week or de end a de week, if youz livin de way ya should, dayz jist gunna kill ya way anywize, so haleluiah!

Pioneer, last count I saw was the US census had Christianity at 32,000 distinguishable theological positions that called themselves Christian. But, that's a poor reason for us to get smug. "Messianic Judaism" is a very new theological title (first coined for popular usage in the late 1960s). Already there are several hundred variations. So who's right? Actually, not a single one of us. We're all wrong. As soon as we believe otherwise we have become as pompous and arrogant as the holy Catholic Church or the Orthodox Rabbinical Authority. We are talmidim (students) of the Messiah, He is the Master and we follow Him. When we become "the way" as opposed to disciples of the way, we forfeit truth for a facsimile. When we become right as opposed to being committed to following Him who is Truth, we cease to exist in vital relationship with Him (that's white-washed tombs stuff).

I have no problem with being called Christian (knowing that to most it is simply an identification with Yeshua- the world's vocabulary is so limited in these ways). I do have a problem with being lumped together with the "Christian" stereo-type; but that's not going to change by calling myself "Messianic". That's going to change because I live differently than the world lives regardless of what I call myself.

[Dogface Of Judah]

Christianity is not a denomination or sect. Christianity is having Yeshua as your Lord and Saviour and indwelt with the Holy Spirit. There maybe thousands of denominations and sects but only one christianity.

The tares outnumber the wheat 100 to 1. Someone can say they are christian/messianic but doesn't mean jack. to say but the majority are 'christians' in name only. It takes patience and time or fruits, i just let the Holy Spirit be my guide and i listen as best as i can.

I completely agree with Mark. I wish i could speak well

Ed

[Pioneer]

Sorry folks, but there was not one speck of arrogance in my post!

I dumped the Greco-Roman Christian garbage, when My brain was swept out,(Mt 12:43 "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none.
44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation." ) I am not about to refill my brain with any of it again, if I can possibly keep it out, (Truth) Yeshua said I am the (living ) way the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me().

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it must be a duck.

Todah rabah, Shalom.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Ok Gentlemen. Please respect Reuel's wishes and discuss issues of Christianity or "dispensationalism" in a new thread. Otherwise I will be forced to lock this thread.

Todah Rabah,
Natanel

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

On old pastor from Georgia gave me my position on the rapture. I'm afraid I can't give you the raw flavor of his thick Negro lips and bright loving passionate eyes; but this is what he told me:

Dats de silliest ting to be argin-bout inywize. If de Lawd comes in de first a de week, haleluiah! If He comes in de middle a de week or de end a de week, if youz livin de way ya should, dayz jist gunna kill ya way anywize, so haleluiah!

That is great. I laughed hard...needed that...todah rabah.

Thank you Mark, good points. Pioneer, I share your zeal brother, but we have to remember that some of us used to be "ducks" (2 Ti. 2:24). It is easy to forget and this something we all need to be reminded of from time to time.

Any other points on the "rapture"?

Shalom achim,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Pioneer, I share your zeal brother, but we have to remember that some of us used to be "ducks" (2 Ti. 2:24).

I think that almost all of us started off as "ducks." Sometimes after coming out of duckology, we start our new life and forget where we once used to waddle....

[Pioneer]

What are you saying? Yes, Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus.
It is okay to reveal your Christianity. In my computer it is GIGO, garbage in garbage out.
I really thought we were to speak the language of .
So the was really nailed to the cross.!??

Is anyone else confussed?

[Chizuk Emunah]

pioneer said:

What are you saying? Yes, Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus.
It is okay to reveal your Christianity. In my computer it is GIGO, garbage in garbage out.
I really thought we were to speak the language of .
So the was really nailed to the cross.!??

Is anyone else confussed?

Shalom chaver. No, no, no. I think the whole thing was misunderstood... Did I really throw everything for a loop with my duckology??

We are agreeing with you that is eternal and not done away with, but by that same token are saying that we sometimes forget (even on purpose) that most of us have come out of Christianity ourselves and need to exercise patience with those who are still in it.

Shalom