|
|
Post by darrell on Jan 24, 2010 12:08:58 GMT -8
OOPS!
Sorry, What I meant to say was...
God bless.
|
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Jan 24, 2010 14:28:44 GMT -8
A Few questions concerning the Rapture.
In the letters to the Churches (Rev.), promises are made to those who overcome.
1st-Who are the overcomers, and how do they overcome?
One of the things promised to those who overcome is an open door (Rev. 3:8).
2nd-What is the open door, and does it have a correlation to the open door of Rev. 4:1?
3rd-What is the "...hour of trial that shall come upon the whole earth"?
God bless.
|
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 25, 2010 23:30:55 GMT -8
I also did not join this forum to play scripture pong, but to gain access to the viewpoint of the modern Hebrew mind...one such as yours. It would appear that you have assumed I'm Jewish? If so, I'm not. Thought maybe I would clear that up. I don't want to mislead anyone. However, I do believe it's imperative that we study the Scriptures from an Hebraic perspective. |
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 26, 2010 0:23:02 GMT -8
A Few questions concerning the Rapture. In the letters to the Churches (Rev.), promises are made to those who overcome. 1st-Who are the overcomers, and how do they overcome? First, I would caution anyone to be careful about formulating doctrine with apocalyptic literature such as Revelation. This commentary is given in the sod level of interpretation, and is almost exclusively Kabbalistic. The Christian interpretation of this book is so far off base it's laughable. Having said that, I'll give you my opinion on your questions. The overcomers are these: (1 John 5:2-4 CJB) Here is how we know that we love God's children: when we love God, we also do what he commands. For loving God means obeying his commands. Moreover, his commands are not burdensome, because everything which has God as its Father overcomes the world. And this is what victoriously overcomes the world: our trust [faith]. One of the things promised to those who overcome is an open door (Rev. 3:8). 2nd-What is the open door, and does it have a correlation to the open door of Rev. 4:1? The open door would signify entrance into the Kingdom of G-d, after the resurrection, and the beginning of the epoch of Mashiakh. Yeshua holds the key of David (Rev 3:8) which is a Hebrew idiom for halachic authority. Which he also gave to Kefa in Mattiyahu 16:19... (Matthew 16:19 CJB) I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven." Some translations have the terms "binding & loosing" which is also a Hebrew idiom for halachic authority. 3rd-What is the "...hour of trial that shall come upon the whole earth"? The hour of trial would be the time of Ya'akov's (Jacob's) trouble: (Jeremiah 30:4-9 CJB) These are the words ADONAI spoke concerning Isra'el and Y'hudah: Here is what ADONAI says: "We have heard a cry of terror, of fear and not of peace. Ask now and see: can men give birth to children? Why, then, do I see all the men with their hands on their stomachs like women in labor, with every face turned pale? How dreadful that day will be! - there has never been one like it: a time of trouble for Ya'akov, but out of it he will be saved. "On that day," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "I will break his yoke from off your neck, I will snap your chains. Foreigners will no longer enslave him. Instead, they will serve ADONAI their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them. Jacobs trouble is what Christians call the tribulation. Notice how we can have a drash interpretation of verse 6 that points toward the resurrection birth prior to Jacobs trouble? Could this mean the resurrection takes place before the tribulation period, so all will be purified by trials, and tribulation, rather that Gehinnom? I'm a little fuzzy on exactly when the resurrection takes place, so obviously my current view isn't set in stone. The ordering of events with Jacobs trouble, the resurrection of the dead, the epoch of Mashiakh, and the beginning of Olam HaBa is tricky stuff. I'm still learning a lot about eschatology. Anyway, that's my two shekels. *EDIT*Darrell, here's something you can read on the time of Jacob's trouble, and the birthpangs of Mashiakh. It will help clear some things up for you I'm sure: LINK. |
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Jan 26, 2010 6:32:34 GMT -8
Hi David Ben Yosef,
I did assume you were Jewish, sorry. But I am glad to talk with anyone who actually studies.
Your caution about "building doctrine" is duly noted, but I would add that it would just as much of a mistake to displace eschatology from the overview that God's word teaches.
Jesus did say, "whoso readeth, let him understand.
As much as I would like to respond to some of your comments more directly, I will stay on topic.
You posted a verse that (again), shows John equating overcoming by faith. This is in keeping with how we come to God.
Also, please dumb dowm the Hebrew terms for me, it makes it difficult to know what you are trying to say.
Concerning the door, He is the Door. This is in keeping with what you posted: "The open door would signify entrance into the kingdom of God".
Also noted, "signify". It is symbolic in its terms, but it symbolizes a reality.
I agree that the "hour" is Jacobs time of trouble.
Okay, another perspective from you, if you would be so kind.
In Jacobs time of trouble, do you see this time-frame as dealing with Israel specifically (as well as His wrath falling on those who do not know God). Or in other words, I see this as the seventieth week, in which the Lord will deal with Israel on a national basis.
Your thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 29, 2010 4:34:05 GMT -8
I haven't forgotten about your last post to me, Darrell. I'll respond shortly, Bro.  |
|
|
|
Post by jimmie on Apr 26, 2010 9:15:44 GMT -8
To those who believe in the pre-millianal rapture:
Jer. 28:6 Even the prophet Jeremiah said, Amen: the LORD do so: the LORD perform thy words which thou hast prophesied,...
But I not convinced.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tuviya ben-Chesed on Mar 14, 2013 21:46:53 GMT -8
Interesting discussion, and I like Blake's take. I believe in the Rapture because it's taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (ESV). But I don't expect the Rapture to be a secret event, separate from the Messiah's return. The resurrection coincides with the Rapture, for "the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16 ESV). Our Messiah promised to raise up his followers on the last day (John 6:39-40, 44). The apostle Paul believed in one general resurrection, for he said that "there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:16 ESV). Yeshua taught the same: "... An hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29 ESV). Therefore I expect the Rapture to take place as part of the general resurrection of the just and unjust on the last day. Something else associated with the Rapture is the metamorphosis (our change from perishable to imperishable). "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53 ESV). The speed and timing of our metamorphosis is important. Unlike the Rapture, the metamorphosis takes place in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye (really fast!). It also takes place at the last trumpet. When the metamorphosis has taken place, death will be swallowed up in victory. "When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.' 'O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'" (1 Corinthians 15:54-55 ESV). The destruction of death is important, for there can't be much of a tribulation without suffering and death. We see the just and unjust resurrected before the judgment at the great white throne (Revelation 20:11-15). Soon afterward, we read that "death shall be no more" (Revelation 21:4). So, I believe that the Rapture, with its metamorphosis, will take place as part of the general resurrection immediately before the great white throne judgment. I also believe that our catching up will seem minor to all the other wonderful blessings. I don't know how many people will go about saying of the Rapture, "That was some ride!" I think we'll be rejoicing to be with Yeshua in such a blessed, eternal state.  |
|
|
|
Post by visionary on Aug 21, 2013 14:33:40 GMT -8
A Few questions concerning the Rapture. In the letters to the Churches (Rev.), promises are made to those who overcome. 1st-Who are the overcomers, and how do they overcome? One of the things promised to those who overcome is an open door (Rev. 3:8). 2nd-What is the open door, and does it have a correlation to the open door of Rev. 4:1? 3rd-What is the "...hour of trial that shall come upon the whole earth"? God bless. Is this like asking how do we get to be one of those folks [Rev 11:2] in the temple, where they are getting counted as the worshiping ones? |
|
|
|
Post by visionary on Aug 21, 2013 14:37:47 GMT -8
... So, I believe that the Rapture, with its metamorphosis, will take place as part of the general resurrection immediately before the great white throne judgment. I also believe that our catching up will seem minor to all the other wonderful blessings. I don't know how many people will go about saying of the Rapture, "That was some ride!" I think we'll be rejoicing to be with Yeshua in such a blessed, eternal state. I was with you on this until you placed the metamorphosis before the judgement. For it would take the judgement to occur first, to qualify the metamorphosis, to my way of thinking. Thus I have the great Yom Kippur rehearsal meets reality first, then the eighth day of Feast of Tabernacles for the resurrection etc. as you described it. |
|
|
|
Post by michaeli on Apr 12, 2014 4:11:55 GMT -8
Shalom,
The Scripture (4 such) is clear the resurrection/catching up occurs at the 7th Trumpet, just before the true wrath of God, the 7 Bowls, is poured out upon those who take the mark and worship the beast - and this mark does not come until after the 5th Trumpewt when the 2nd Beast, the False Prophet, is released from the Abyss.
Michaeli
|
|
