Rapture?

[Chizuk Emunah]

Amein achi, amein!

[Golfnerd]

yitzchak said:

While the rapture is an interesting subject to discuss and debate, I think far too much time is wasted on it.

When one studies the scriptures, they find that there is far more material regarding the establishment of G-d's Kingdom here on earth. For some reason, and of course it is the church again, we have this teaching in which the believer places more focus on escaping this world, then establishing G-d's Kingdom.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

Shalom Yitzchak,

You have a point, but I submit that if hasatan can confuse this issue and brethren are hanging everything on the fact that they are going to get "poofed out" early, brethen will be falling by the wayside in droves.

What better way for hasatan to screw things up for as many brethren as possible than to pass this false doctrine of man off as truth? I have heard it said MANY times from the pre trib folks the reason they don't study end time prophecy is that they won't be here, so it doesn't apply to them. "I don't have to worry about it" Well, what will happen when they find themselves 4-5 years into the tribulation and the antimessiah starts the mark of the beast thing up and they think that it's NOT the tribulation because they are still here. They will be woefully unprepared to deal with the events that are taking place and won't be able to make correct decisions. I submit that for these brethren, the return of Yeshua WILL be as a thief in the night - wholly unexpected.

What say you?

[Nachshon]

Don't you think they will be falling by the wayside in droves, anyway?

Shalom,
David

[Yitzchak]

Shalom Yitzchak,

You have a point, but I submit that if hasatan can confuse this issue and brethren are hanging everything on the fact that they are going to get poofed out early, brethen will be falling by the wayside in droves.

I am not so sure that this is the work of the accuser. I think we give him far too much credit.

This is an issue of believers studying to show themselves approved, and not hanging on every wind and wave of doctrine. What happend to Bereans, who study the scriptures, and do not simply accept whatever they hear from the pulpit?

The real issue is this, and it is really another debate. The majority of men who stand upon platforms in this country are neither anointed, or called to the ministry. It is the old saying, "Some are called, some are sent, others just grabbed a microphone and went."

This is the reason so many are hearing false doctrine.

What better way for hasatan to screw things up for as many brethren as possible than to pass this false doctrine of man off as truth? I have heard it said MANY times from the pre trib folks the reason they don't study end time prophecy is that they won't be here, so it doesn't apply to them. I don't have to worry about it. Well, what will happen when they find themselves 4-5 years into the tribulation and the antimessiah starts the mark of the beast thing up and they think that it's NOT the tribulation because they are still here. They will be woefully unprepared to deal with the events that are taking place and won't be able to make correct decisions. I submit that for these brethren, the return of Yeshua WILL be as a thief in the night - wholly unexpected.

Then in a way you make my point here. Again, there are far more scriptures that speak about things like perserverance to the end, and establishment of G-d's Kingdom on earth, than there are regarding us being poofed out of here.

Either people will base their beliefs on the full counsel of HaShem, or they will be swept away by the waves of false teaching.

Our responsibility is to teach the truth. I will try and illustrate my point this way. For years I have battled the anti- teachers, and attempted to minister to those in the church regarding their misunderstanding of the scriptures. All of this to very little avail.

I came to realize that it is more important for me to bring my Jewish people to Messiah, than it is for me to set the church straight.

If we are out there proclaiming the Good News, and making talmidim, they will know the truth. I will let HaShem deal with the others.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Golfnerd]

nachshon said:

Don't you think they will be falling by the wayside in droves, anyway?

Shalom,
David

yep, I do....

[Golfnerd]

Yitzchak said:

I am not so sure that this is the work of the accuser. I think we give him far too much credit.

Or perhaps not enough credit. Isn't he the father of lies? Remember...he tricked Eve by changing only ONE word of God's instruction. You start on a journey and deviate from your path by ONE degree and where do you end up?

This is an issue of believers studying to show themselves approved, and not hanging on every wind and wave of doctrine. What happend to Bereans, who study the scriptures, and do not simply accept whatever they hear from the pulpit?

I completely agree here. This problem is rampant...the "casual believer goes to church, reads the few verses that are projected on the screen, stuffs the church bulletin in their bible and goes home, never cracking the Scriptures till next Sunday, when they stuff the new bulletin in and take the old out.

The Bereans are a remnant, imho.

The real issue is this, and it is really another debate. The majority of men who stand upon platforms in this country are neither anointed, or called to the ministry. It is the old saying, "Some are called, some are sent, others just grabbed a microphone and went."

Thanks for the laugh!! That last one just cracked me up. You do have a very good point.

This is the reason so many are hearing false doctrine.

Amen to that.

Then in a way you make my point here. Again, there are far more scriptures that speak about things like perserverance to the end, and establishment of G-d's Kingdom on earth, than there are regarding us being poofed out of here.

but you see...those FEW verses are the ones that are being held onto in a stranglehold by the folks who beleive in the pre-trib stuff. They disregard the other verses or twist the interpretation to fit their theology.

Either people will base their beliefs on the full counsel of HaShem, or they will be swept away by the waves of false teaching.

agreed here.

Our responsibility is to teach the truth. I will try and illustrate my point this way. For years I have battled the anti- teachers, and attempted to minister to those in the church regarding their misunderstanding of the scriptures. All of this to very little avail.

And why do you think that is? Are they not ready to hear this message, or is it that they never will be ready to hear it?

I came to realize that it is more important for me to bring my Jewish people to Messiah, than it is for me to set the church straight.

I see...pick your battles. Then on a side note, how would you suggest that I share with an orthodox Jewish co-worker? Any tips, tricks?

If we are out there proclaiming the Good News, and making talmidim, they will know the truth. I will let HaShem deal with the others.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

Agreed here as well. God has to water the seeds that we plant.

Shalom,
Mark

[Chizuk Emunah]

Then on a side note, how would you suggest that I share with an orthodox Jewish co-worker? Any tips, tricks?

No tricks, but definitely some tips.

• First, you should definitely be living a -observant life, otherwise he will not hear anything you have to say.
  
• Second, don't to preach to or at him. There is nothing we hate more than attempts by Christians to convert us to a foreign religion. Keep in mind that it is about shuva and not conversion.
  
• Third, make an attempt at making friends with him, this will go a long way.
  
• And lastly, make an effort to study and Judaism, that way you can understand where he's coming from.

[Curt]

Jesus Christ has not yet died and the age of grace has not yet arrived, so 100% of what we find in the Gospel accounts is under law and not grace! None of the Old Testament prophets "saw" the Church Age because God did not reveal it to them—it was a divine "mystery

Grace existed in the Old Testament for everyone!

Example: Genesis 6:8

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them" (Mark 13:9, KJV)

To the best of my knowledge, Jews have not made it a practice to bring Christians into their synagogues for any reason, much less to beat them! But during the Tribulation Period the 144,000 elect Jews will be persecuted by their own people as well as by the Gentiles

.

Curt: In this context synagogue simply means a place of worship for all those who belong to the house of God(Literal Jews and Gentiles). The house of God are those who obey the gospel of God.

1 Peter 4:17.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Revelation 14 is symbolic. The 144,000 is not speaking of literal Jews. No more than the 144,00 are speaking of literal virgins in Rev. 14:4. The 144,000 are not defiled with false doctrines of false churches. Women is symbolic of churches. Just as names written on their foreheads are symbolic. It means they have the character of God.

Revelation 14:4

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Galatians 3:26-29

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise

I personally believe we will see the Antichtrist and endure him for a while

.

Curt: The antichrist has been here for a long, long time already.

1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

[messimom]

Revelation 14 is symbolic. The 144,000 is not speaking of literal Jews. No more than the 144,00 are speaking of literal virgins in Rev. 14:4. The 144,000 are not defiled with false doctrines of false churches. Women is symbolic of churches. Just as names written on their foreheads are symbolic. It means they have the character of God.

Revelation 14:4

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Now, this is the second time recently that I have heard that 144,000 is SYMBOLIC not literal, as traditional church doctrine teaches. I am definitely not opposed to this interpretation, just that I have never heard it in full. On what basis do those who believe that the 144,000 is symbolic? Is it because so much of Revelation is given in symbol and to take that number as literal would be out of context? And/Or is there something else prompting you to believe this?

Thanks

Messimom

[Curt]

On what basis do those who believe that the 144,000 is symbolic? Is it because so much of Revelation is given in symbol and to take that number as literal would be out of context? And/Or is there something else prompting you to believe this?

Curt: I don't know what everyone else believes concerning the 144,000 as far as symbolism. I believe because the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 14 is surrounded by symbolism that the 144,000 is also probably symbolic. Certainly the 144,000 is a smaller number than the multitude found in Rev.7:9 which immediately follows another description of the 144,000.

Example: The 144,000 don't literally have the Fathers name written on their foreheads. It means they have the character of God.

Revelation 14:1

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Curt: The 144,000 are suppose to have not been defiled with women, they are suppose to have been virgins. It doesn't mean they haven't had sexual intercourse. Having sex within marriage does not defile.

Example: Hebrews 13:4

Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Revelation 14:4

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 21:9-10

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”[b] 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[c] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Curt: If they don't have literal names written on their foreheads and aren't literal virgins then if the number 144,000 is written in the same context as these then I believe it's probably not a literal 144,000.

[Golfnerd]

the word for virgin actually means "virtuous" and not whether or not thay've had sex. If you are betrothed to YHWH and have not "slept" with other gods, then you could qualify for this. The 144,000 are real, not symbolic. They are a representation of the pillar that led the Hebrews during the Exodus. The 144,000 will be here to help the brethren and to guide them. There WILL be another exodus.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Grace existed in the Old Testament for everyone!

Example: Genesis 6:8

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Amein!

"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them" (Mark 13:9, KJV)

To the best of my knowledge, Jews have not made it a practice to bring Christians into their synagogues for any reason, much less to beat them! But during the Tribulation Period the 144,000 elect Jews will be persecuted by their own people as well as by the Gentiles

In this context synagogue simply means a place of worship for all those who belong to the house of God(Literal Jews and Gentiles). The house of God are those who obey the gospel of God.

Really have to disagree with you here. Remember that no scripture loses it's p'shat (plain meaning). Quite simply this scripture is referring to the Synagogue, the place where Jews, Gerim, and Righteous Gentiles go to worship HaShem, as it was the only place where that could be done. And keep in mind that back then there were no distinctions between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or Messianic.

Revelation 14 is symbolic. The 144,000 is not speaking of literal Jews.

I know that most of Revelation is sod, and therefore symbolic. However, would you say that the sheva kehilot were symbolic? I don't believe they were. I believe certain parts of Revelation are symbolic and others are literal. How do we know which is which? We really don't. It's all speculation at this point. However, I think that we may have our answers very soon. I see a 7yr peace deal on the horizon for Yisrael.

There WILL be another exodus.

I would have to agree. Whether that will be facilitated by Mashiach or pushed upon us by the false Messiah remains to be seen.

[Nachshon]

b'shana hab'a b'yerushalayim!
Next year in Jerusalem!

[Curt]

the word for virgin actually means "virtuous" and not whether or not thay've had sex.

I feel the context of the words convey a literal meaning of a celibate or chaste woman because the word "virgin" is used.

Revelation 14:4

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb

If the Bible wanted to use the word "virtuous" it could of. Since it did in the following verses.

Proverbs 31:10 (New King James Version)

10 Who can find a virtuous wife?
For her worth is far above rubies.

Ruth 3:11 (New King James Version)


11 And now, my daughter, do not fear. I will do for you all that you request, for all the people of my town know that you are a virtuous woman.

Curt: The Bible deliberately used the word "virtuous" because Ruth was not a "virgin" She formerly had a husband. It wanted to convey the meaning of righteousness and moral excellence. There was no symbolism in Ruth as in Revelation 14 so Ruth is taken literally. Revelation 14 and other verses talking about the 144,000 are surrounded by other symbolic verses. So that is why virgin, woman and and Father's name written on their foreheads are all symbolic. No one should expect literal names written on the 144,00 foreheads, noone should expect these 144,000 to be all men, after all it says 144,000 weren't defiled with other women. Woman is symbolic of the church. Noone should expect 144,000 to be Jews although some may very well be so. The sons of God will be neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free because we are all Abraham's seed.


Galatians 3:26-29 (New King James Version)

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Ruth 2:11-12 (New King James Version)


11 And Boaz answered and said to her, “It has been fully reported to me, all that you have done for your mother-in-law since the death of your husband, and how you have left your father and your mother and the land of your birth, and have come to a people whom you did not know before. 12 The LORD repay your work, and a full reward be given you by the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings you have come for refuge

Quite simply this scripture is referring to the Synagogue, the place where Jews, Gerim, and Righteous Gentiles go to worship HaShem, as it was the only place where that could be done. And keep in mind that back then there were no distinctions between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or Messianic

Curt: The sealing of the 144,000 takes place in the future where there is neither Jew nor Greek. The many Christians who worship on the seventh day Sabbath who are not worshipping in Synagogues. They are Abrahams's seed. To take it to mean Synagogue only would be a literal intrepretation and there is too much symbolism in the imediate context for me to do so.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Curt: The sealing of the 144,000 takes place in the future where there is neither Jew nor Greek. The many Christians who worship on the seventh day Sabbath who are not worshipping in Synagogues. They are Abrahams's seed. To take it to mean Synagogue only would be a literal intrepretation and there is too much symbolism in the imediate context for me to do so.

Lost me there...