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Post by alon on Jun 29, 2019 8:08:04 GMT -8
Some may argue it gets a bit more complicated as kids get older, but I don't think so as we still set examples. Also, in terms of  and Yeshua's ways we are all little babies, especially considering our own kids that we've already undermined in terms of their life and walk with G-d. Hear oh Israel, the L-RD our G-d, the L-RD is One. And you shall love the L-RD your G-d with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children... I think it's really wrong to encourage your children away from , and if you feel it's against to the point you won't attend, you're causing your son to knowingly sin as he will have to understand better or worse just to agree to fill in or not for you. It seems like a way your going to make the situation wrong for and confuse your older son to me. We can't start thinking, "if they're going anyway..." because that's where we start getting drawn into the confusion and promoting other people's confusion and sin. Especially as a loophole to represent yourself through your son, I just think it's worse then if you went on your own as now he's being drawn into the doubt and sin you have while you alleviate your own feelings of guilt. Seems really wrong and confusing to me on your older son's account. You are correct in what you say. The point here is what is meant by filling in for him. It's a birthday party. Probably all that entails is settingup, decorating, etc. I don't really know. But these are things family and friends would usually do. I am just trying to keep it simple, not overthink it. If the othe son is there and mystic is not, then he would probably take on the duties of family anyhow. We could get into all the particulars and talk this out for weeks. But the bottom line is like I told mystic, he is the one that knows all this, so it is his decision. But your points are well taken as hey speak, albeit obliquely to principles. There are no loopholes with God. Be careful how we train our children. Be sure you aren't making excuses to sin without  or guilt. But the actual application of these principles and the ones I alluded to as well are up to mystic, as he is the only one who truly knows all the variables. Would you say just stay away even if it would damage an autistic person's mental state? Is it wrong to compromise to make his involvement as little as possible but still be there to support his son? And wouldn't the older son be able to see that as what he's doing and not just that he is trying to get around God's laws? I don't think you can just look at this as black and white. The higher mitzvah is to not harm the autistic son's mental state, possibly causing anguish and suffering. But that is not a call you nor I can make. He knows his son, I don't. He is also the one that will have to answer for it if he uses this as an excuse. So it is his decision. You may be right. I don't claim to be an authority on this issue. But I always consider the higher mitzvah when two or more mitzvoth clash. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jun 29, 2019 8:25:04 GMT -8
My sincerest apologies guys for not having thought about the importance of sharing all of the basic details of this.
The main concern here for me is not my attendance, it is the physical work which will be required from that Saturday morning onwards. mike's party always takes place in our backyard so from Early Saturday morning we would start with the food prep and setting up everything. I do not have to attend until Sabbath is over but my participation [or someone filling in for me] will be necessary in order for mike to have a birthday celebration [work-wise].
I can designate everyone for specific tasks weeks in advance as they all here know their tasks which they do each year but someone will need to do all of the physical work which I used to do on Mike's birthdays, that is my issue, if it would be right weeks ahead of time to tell my older son to do for mike on that day what I would normally be doing, then this would be take care of everything. Again, my apologies.
Also, we could look at this from another angle. By my older son doing what I do on that day for Mike is just that, he would not be doing it for me but for his brother.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2019 9:03:57 GMT -8
Some may argue it gets a bit more complicated as kids get older, but I don't think so as we still set examples. Also, in terms of and Yeshua's ways we are all little babies, especially considering our own kids that we've already undermined in terms of their life and walk with G-d. Hear oh Israel, the L-RD our G-d, the L-RD is One. And you shall love the L-RD your G-d with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children... I think it's really wrong to encourage your children away from , and if you feel it's against to the point you won't attend, you're causing your son to knowingly sin as he will have to understand better or worse just to agree to fill in or not for you. It seems like a way your going to make the situation wrong for and confuse your older son to me. We can't start thinking, "if they're going anyway..." because that's where we start getting drawn into the confusion and promoting other people's confusion and sin. Especially as a loophole to represent yourself through your son, I just think it's worse then if you went on your own as now he's being drawn into the doubt and sin you have while you alleviate your own feelings of guilt. Seems really wrong and confusing to me on your older son's account. You are correct in what you say. The point here is what is meant by filling in for him. It's a birthday party. Probably all that entails is settingup, decorating, etc. I don't really know. But these are things family and friends would usually do. I am just trying to keep it simple, not overthink it. If the othe son is there and mystic is not, then he would probably take on the duties of family anyhow. We could get into all the particulars and talk this out for weeks. But the bottom line is like I told mystic, he is the one that knows all this, so it is his decision. But your points are well taken as hey speak, albeit obliquely to principles. There are no loopholes with God. Be careful how we train our children. Be sure you aren't making excuses to sin without or guilt. But the actual application of these principles and the ones I alluded to as well are up to mystic, as he is the only one who truly knows all the variables. Would you say just stay away even if it would damage an autistic person's mental state? Is it wrong to compromise to make his involvement as little as possible but still be there to support his son? And wouldn't the older son be able to see that as what he's doing and not just that he is trying to get around God's laws? I don't think you can just look at this as black and white. The higher mitzvah is to not harm the autistic son's mental state, possibly causing anguish and suffering. But that is not a call you nor I can make. He knows his son, I don't. He is also the one that will have to answer for it if he uses this as an excuse. So it is his decision. You may be right. I don't claim to be an authority on this issue. But I always consider the higher mitzvah when two or more mitzvoth clash. Dan C No, I would not and tried not to say that, and my answer is an attempt to avoid presuming the ability of making a call of what he should do regarding the birthday party itself. I also won't assume what his older son will assume, but I can see that he would be stuck to choose something that confronts his own attitudes toward Torah. He would either have to say no to G-d or no to his dad on some level. What we can know is that if Mystic thinks it's wrong to do something based on Torah, it's wrong to ask someone else to. That's all I'm speaking to. I'm not speaking to what's right for him to do regarding his autistic son in this situation. I can't know and didn't speak to that specifically because I can't. What I'm now saying, is that I'm going to answer these questions based on what I can know and how G-d leads me. You can probably expect some things you won't like to hear from me now and then Mystic if you ask these questions because I do feel obligated to speak up as I feel called if you ask. I think it's bad for your older son. |
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Post by mystic on Jun 29, 2019 9:08:21 GMT -8
Yes I am sure we can all agree that the basic principle of asking someone to do something for you which you are not supposed be doing is wrong. As I had edited in my previous post, if the older son can do what I do for his brother on that day, I see this as him doing it for his brother and not directly for me. |
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Post by alon on Jun 29, 2019 9:27:34 GMT -8
Well, now I am confused. Are you throwing the party or are they? If the family is throwing the party, which I understood to be somewhere else, then they would be doing the work, including organizing. So why would you be assigning tasks? If you are throwing the party then you have a problem. Several problems in fact. You cannot claim to be a disinterested party in that case. Or uninvolved. You have no moral high ground to say you won't be there until later. If you are assigning tasks then you ARE asking them to do not just things, but everything for you, not your son.
If they are throwing the party, then back off and let them do it. Then you can come late and be with your son. But you can't plan it and then say "Well I can't be there because we don't do birthdays especially on Shabbat."
This is why I like to keep it simple. We've given you the principles, you know the scriptures, now you need to decide what to do based on that. Because there will always be more details we don't know, and trust me when I say I have an unlimited capacity for being confused!
Dan (what?) C
edit: Elizabeth, those were rhetorical questions. I was sure you wouldn't do those things, so I used the questions to illustrate the point. But rereading to try and figure this all out, I thought it sounded a bit like I thought you would. So just making sure ...
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2019 9:57:36 GMT -8
edit: Elizabeth, those were rhetorical questions. I was sure you wouldn't do those things, so I used the questions to illustrate the point. But rereading to try and figure this all out, I thought it sounded a bit like I thought you would. So just making sure ... Thanks, yeah I jumped to the conclusion that I had said exactly what I was trying not to say and had somehow nevertheless said it very well.  |
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Post by mystic on Jun 30, 2019 3:41:08 GMT -8
Well, now I am confused. Are you throwing the party or are they? If the family is throwing the party, which I understood to be somewhere else, then they would be doing the work, including organizing. So why would you be assigning tasks? If you are throwing the party then you have a problem. Several problems in fact. You cannot claim to be a disinterested party in that case. Or uninvolved. You have no moral high ground to say you won't be there until later. If you are assigning tasks then you ARE asking them to do not just things, but everything for you, not your son. If they are throwing the party, then back off and let them do it. Then you can come late and be with your son. But you can't plan it and then say "Well I can't be there because we don't do birthdays especially on Shabbat." This is why I like to keep it simple. We've given you the principles, you know the scriptures, now you need to decide what to do based on that. Because there will always be more details we don't know, and trust me when I say I have an unlimited capacity for being confused! Dan (what?) C Mike's party is always a collective effort from everyone here but you are correct, I am always the main organizer so yes I need to back off and let all of these guys do their thing the way they want. I already have issues with some of them especially the Hindus telling me to ask God for forgiveness and participate. I may need to find somewhere to go on that day because I know some of the invited guests will be asking for me and I will be expected to go outside to greet and mingle with them. To clarify, nothing wrong with me helping them with anything "before" the Sabbath, is this right please? |
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Post by alon on Jun 30, 2019 5:40:05 GMT -8
Mike's party is always a collective effort from everyone here but you are correct, I am always the main organizer so yes I need to back off and let all of these guys do their thing the way they want. I already have issues with some of them especially the Hindus telling me to ask God for forgiveness and participate. I may need to find somewhere to go on that day because I know some of the invited guests will be asking for me and I will be expected to go outside to greet and mingle with them. To clarify, nothing wrong with me helping them with anything "before" the Sabbath, is this right please? Workwise, no. However if you are helping throw the party you are condoning the activity. I know that is a hard decision as he is your son and apparently the party is now back at your place. All I can advise you is if you are taking the stand that birthdays are wrong (which can be deduced from the few mentions of it in the Bible) then you need to distance yourself from all involvement as much as possible. When we take a stand, we should see it through. I've told you before that I will make an appearance at the grandkids party's because of how they'd see it if I don't. Just like how it might effect your son if you don't. But showing up for them and throwing the party are two different things. Let them throw the party. You just show up and give your son a hug. Be there for him. But again this is only advice, you don't have to be there for them. Especially as they seem bent on telling you how to worship and practice your religion- or better yet to them get you to abandon it altogether. Working together on a party is fellowshipping together, and frankly you don't need that kind of fellowship. None of us do. So involvement in helping throw a pagan holiday as well as fellowshipping with people who want to destroy your beliefs, I am going to have to advise against it. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jun 30, 2019 6:17:58 GMT -8
Makes sense and will do as advised, thanks Dan!
one last issue please, do I need to wait until after sabbath to go outside and mingle with Mike and his guests or can do so during the sabbath?
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Post by alon on Jun 30, 2019 7:52:56 GMT -8
Makes sense and will do as advised, thanks Dan! one last issue please, do I need to wait until after sabbath to go outside and mingle with Mike and his guests or can do so during the sabbath? Again, depends on circumstances I have no idea about. Will the party be going at least a good while after sundown? Will things be happening before sundown that your abscence will cause him problems? If possible, no, wait till after sundown, or traditionally when 3 stars can be seen. I just go with sundown and a 1/2 hr fence to make sure. But that is up to you. Another thing is try not to make a scene when you do show up. Some may try to bait you: "Nice of you to show up!" Don't take it unless they are adamant, then handle it as quietly as possible. I'd just say something like "Nice of you to notice." the first time, and if they persist "Nice of you to try and ruin the evening by starting a fight." Just an example, since I can't know even if it will happen, let alone what they'll say. But from what you said about that Hindu friend, it is a good possibility. So be prepared. This is just one of the dilemmas we as Messianics have to deal with, and other than completely separating ourselves, which few can do, there is no good answer. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jul 1, 2019 3:45:55 GMT -8
Again, depends on circumstances I have no idea about. Will the party be going at least a good while after sundown? Will things be happening before sundown that your abscence will cause him problems? If possible, no, wait till after sundown, or traditionally when 3 stars can be seen. I just go with sundown and a 1/2 hr fence to make sure. But that is up to you. Another thing is try not to make a scene when you do show up. Some may try to bait you: "Nice of you to show up!" Don't take it unless they are adamant, then handle it as quietly as possible. I'd just say something like "Nice of you to notice." the first time, and if they persist "Nice of you to try and ruin the evening by starting a fight." Just an example, since I can't know even if it will happen, let alone what they'll say. But from what you said about that Hindu friend, it is a good possibility. So be prepared. This is just one of the dilemmas we as Messianics have to deal with, and other than completely separating ourselves, which few can do, there is no good answer. Dan C Yes, the party usually starts from 2pm and goes until like 11. I don't see my absence will be an issue unless they won't have someone to perform the tasks I always handle. My main concern is what you've mentioned a few times already, will my absence and lack of participation be an issue for Mike? Answer, yes it will especially since our relationship has been strained for some months now. Last month he got steamed and told me I "don't want him living in this house anymore" after I told him he has to obey the rules of this house as long as he lives in it. Since then he has been seeking a way to move out. So aside from that major issue, my worry for this party is my lack of participation will send a message to him that I don't care anymore. It's a very thin line between dishing out discipline and doing emotional/mental damage to an Autistic child as no one knows which issues are autism related and which issues would be normal teen rebellion so it's always a very big risk when disciplining since battling suicide issues is always at the forefront with kids with his diagnosis. From a biblical standpoint what runs through my mind constantly with mike [in general] is do I follow God's command and abandon my child who is going in the opposite direction? I seem to be caught in the middle and there doesn't seem to be any middle ground here. Bottom line, it's either I follow God's commands or help my son, there's no in-between. |
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Post by alon on Jul 1, 2019 6:01:16 GMT -8
Yes, the party usually starts from 2pm and goes until like 11. I don't see my absence will be an issue unless they won't have someone to perform the tasks I always handle. If they are throwing the party then they are responsible to find someone to do those things. Another reason for you not to help with the planning- make it clear you will not be doing those things. If you help there may be some confusion on this and come the day they will try to pressure you into breaking Shabbat because they just didn't think to make the arrangements. I can appreciate that you can't know what damage might be done, so I'd say err on the side of helping him. What I am saying is there is an in between. In all cases other than bowing to or worshiping an idol (or another god) the higher mitzvzah is not to harm your son. And causing mental anguish to an autistic person is doing harm to another. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jul 4, 2019 3:54:22 GMT -8
Noted thanks.
I would like to visit Queens Farm here on Sabbath. Far as I understand this would be acceptable being among nature with my intent being to go feed and pet some animals, spend a little time in prayer and communication in solitude with God and lie down under a tree somewhere to truly relax. Doing the above on a farm will be maybe the most relaxing thing I can do.
The obstacles I am thinking would be I would need to go either in our car or using public transportation to there and back. Also I would need to pay for admission and for feeding the animals, hay rides and whatever else. Anything I can do here please?
Happy 4th to everyone!
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Post by alon on Jul 4, 2019 6:20:52 GMT -8
Noted thanks. I would like to visit Queens Farm here on Sabbath. Far as I understand this would be acceptable being among nature with my intent being to go feed and pet some animals, spend a little time in prayer and communication in solitude with God and lie down under a tree somewhere to truly relax. Doing the above on a farm will be maybe the most relaxing thing I can do. The obstacles I am thinking would be I would need to go either in our car or using public transportation to there and back. Also I would need to pay for admission and for feeding the animals, hay rides and whatever else. Anything I can do here please? Happy 4th to everyone! Again, go to the principle laid down in . We are not to do monetary transactions on Shabbat. There would be nothing wrong with walking and enjoying nature, praising the Almighty for what He has made. There is something wrong with the numerous financial transactions you describe. I believe I advised you at one time that you had a customer who could only make it into the city on Shabbat. If there was no other way then doing what absolutely had to be done for that particular transaction would probably be the higher mitzvah. But this is not that. There is no urgency here, nothing that will harm your livelihood, your family, or you. So no, in my opinion this would be transgression: intentional sin, what Paul calls "sin unto death." But you have the principle and my opinion. You decide for yourself. If others want to chime in here and give their opinion, I'd be interested. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jul 5, 2019 4:57:45 GMT -8
As another option, I have a friend who likes nature too and has invited me to go with her so she can pay for admission and whatever else so would that be ok?
Also, would taking transportation be ok?
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and Yeshua's ways we are all little babies, especially considering our own kids that we've already undermined in terms of their life and walk with G-d. 
or guilt. But the actual application of these principles and the ones I alluded to as well are up to mystic, as he is the only one who truly knows all the variables. 
