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Post by alon on May 21, 2019 11:24:26 GMT -8
So where does MJ fit into the mix, more with Conservative, in the middle between Orthodox and Reform? We are not "in the mix" anywhere, nor do we just fit in between any other religions. Messianic Judaism is its own separate entity. Yes, there are elements of Christianity and (as our name implies) Judaism in particular. But most of Christianity we reject, and the Judaism we ascribe to is that of the Notsarim sect which contemporary Judaism absolutely rejects! This is why I keep telling you that you will not find answers in either Christian or Jewish friends. They are different, regardless of denomination or sect. And both reject us and what we believe; how we interpret scripture and even what "scripture" we should be interpreting! All you will get from them is confusion. Dan C |
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Post by alon on May 21, 2019 11:32:46 GMT -8
The one about hitting a button or switch on an electrical device is an interpolation of the proscription of making a fire on Shabbat. They say if the device causes even the tiniest spark when you hit the switch you've created fire. We do not think this violates the law, and we turn electrical devises on and off. And we adjust them when necessary. Dan C That electricity issue has been a thorn in my side ever since I had first come across it, can you tell me exactly why you do not think it violates the law please? Also I can use clarity on this, I know we are not supposed to have people do anything for us which we should not be doing ourselves. Sometimes the others here order food on the Sabbath and will ask me what I want, even though I am not giving them any cash for it during Sabbath or at all, is it wrong for me to request anything? p.s. I have simply decided to not drink tea on Saturday mornings anymore so no need for me to worry about bending any rules. I don't think it violates either the letter or the spirit of the law. I was telling you what they think; how they interpret scripture. Many places, like the parent synagogue here use electronic technology to broadcast and/or record their services every Shabbat. Simply turning an electrical device on or off creates a spark. So if we agreed with Rabbinical Judaism we could not offer that kind of service to others in remote areas with no one to worship with. Turning a device on to prepare food or to work however is a clear violation of  . Dan C |
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Post by alon on May 21, 2019 12:14:39 GMT -8
So we are left to grope in the dark and find our way alone. Dan C John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Absolutely we need prayerful guidance of the Ruach. Even so, often many questions remain and so we must do the best we can until understanding comes, usually with a lot more study and experience. Here again, we have to be careful of words like "all." No one knows "all" things, especially in God's word. The phrase "all things" is here translated from one Greek word: G3958 πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
declension (dɪˈklɛnʃən) n
1. (Grammar) grammar a. the inflection of nouns, pronouns, or adjectives for case, number, and gender b. the complete set of the inflections of such a word: "puella" is a first-declension noun in Latin.
2. a decline or deviation from a standard, belief, etc
3. a downward slope or bend
We must also consider context: 1 John 2:20-29 (CJB) 20 But you have received the Messiah’s anointing from HaKadosh, and you know all this. 21 It is not because you don’t know the truth that I have written to you, but because you do know it, and because no lie has its origin in the truth. 22 Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? Such a person is an anti-Messiah — he is denying the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son is also without the Father, but the person who acknowledges the Son has the Father as well. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with both the Son and the Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us: eternal life.
26 I have written you these things about the people who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the Messianic anointing you received from the Father remains in you, so that you have no need for anyone to teach you. On the contrary, as his Messianic anointing continues to teach you about all things, and is true, not a counterfeit, so, just as he taught you, remain united with him.
28 And now, children, remain united with him; so that when he appears, we may have confidence and not shrink back from him in  at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you should also know that he is the Father of everyone who does what is right.The subject here is clearly their belief in Yeshua as HaMoshiach. It is not every detail of their walk with God, but their belief in Him as God that is spoken of here. Those letters which later made up the bulk of our Brith Chadashah were themselves meant as instruction from men who were qualified to interpret scripture and to make halacha, our instructions in our walk with God. So it is not saying we need no Godly instruction. Nor does it negate your point that when such instruction is not available we should prayerfully go to God and ask for His guidance as we try to figure things out for ourselves. But the two are not divorced. They should go together. Test what you hear, but do not forsake the assembly when you have one (at least not without good cause). And listen to those more knowledgable when given the opportunity. Acts 15:21 (CJB) For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
Like those new believers Rav Shaul was speaking of in this verse, we all can benefit from Godly instruction. Matthew 23:2-3 (CJB) “The -teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act!Those men who sat in the Moses Seat and taught every Shabbat ere very well educated and knowledgable men. We were commanded by Yeshua to listen to them. But they were men, fallible and not always the best practitioners of what they preached. Again, prayerful discernment is the order of the day, as your point would also suggest. Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on May 21, 2019 14:18:12 GMT -8
[ Those letters which later made up the bulk of our Brith Chadashah were themselves meant as instruction from men who were qualified to interpret scripture and to make halacha, our instructions in our walk with God. So it is not saying we need no Godly instruction. Nor does it negate your point that when such instruction is not available we should prayerfully go to God and ask for His guidance as we try to figure things out for ourselves. But the two are not divorced. They should go together. Test what you hear, but do not forsake the assembly when you have one (at least not without good cause). And listen to those more knowledgable when given the opportunity. Dan C agreed |
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Post by mystic on Jun 23, 2019 3:16:36 GMT -8
Hey guys, just checking to confirm this. Yesterday was my Nephew's birthday party, I did not go. One of my neighbors was very strongly telling me to go if only for 5 minutes just to "show my face". I got so steamed I was trembling, he is a Hindu so I told him that might be hindu law but not Christian law. Thing is, would that be acceptable to do during Sabbath?
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Post by alon on Jun 23, 2019 9:39:43 GMT -8
Hey guys, just checking to confirm this. Yesterday was my Nephew's birthday party, I did not go. One of my neighbors was very strongly telling me to go if only for 5 minutes just to "show my face". I got so steamed I was trembling, he is a Hindu so I told him that might be hindu law but not Christian law. Thing is, would that be acceptable to do during Sabbath? Getting steamed at him or going to the party? I already gave you my take on the party. Showing your face, so to speak in support of your son would have been a good thing in my estimation. No idea if you were right to get steamed at the Hindu guy, since I wasn't there. But birthdays definaely are a Christian thing. In fact, they are very big on b'days. They are not a thing for most Messianics though. If you decided not to go that is your choice. And if you did it out of a conviction God doesn't want us to do them I won't say you were wrong either. As long as your son understands and is good- no ill effects mentally- then you did right. Col 2:16 ESV Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
That was written to early Notsarim, not to Christians. You went with your conscience, what you thought was right; now let no man judge you for it. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jun 24, 2019 7:14:39 GMT -8
Steamed at him for trying to force his hindu beliefs on me.
Yes, I remember your views on mike's party but that was here at home. In this case it involves going to someone else's party elsewhere.
First time I am noticing this scripture, that scripture seems to me to be a get out of jail card for one to eat and drink whatever they want or how much they want on Sabbath.
What is a Notsarim please?
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Post by mystic on Jun 24, 2019 13:18:21 GMT -8
Also, some people choose not to observe Sabbath in such circumstances so they won't have to break any rules, what's your thoughts on this please?
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Post by alon on Jun 24, 2019 17:14:47 GMT -8
Steamed at him for trying to force his hindu beliefs on me. Yes, I remember your views on mike's party but that was here at home. In this case it involves going to someone else's party elsewhere. First time I am noticing this scripture, that scripture seems to me to be a get out of jail card for one to eat and drink whatever they want or how much they want on Sabbath. What is a Notsarim please? Also, some people choose not to observe Sabbath in such circumstances so they won't have to break any rules, what's your thoughts on this please? Home or elsewhere is only a matter of location. The principles are the same. The only difference is you might feel more pressure to attend at home. But that has nothing to do with the principles determining right and wrong. The scripture is not a "get out of jail free card." God doesn't work like that. It was directed at new believes who, like you were being pressured to go back to the old ways. In the 1st cen if you changed religions it was a total change from all you were. You no longer served the gods of your ancestors, but a new God. It actually was an act of treason! And every time you kept a New Moon feast it was a visual symbol of your new faith. Same when you refused to attend their pagan festivals. That verse was meant to be encouragement for them to hold to the new ways and not the old. In other words, they were in exactly the same position as you are! Far from a get out of jail free card, it's a "Go to jail if you have to" card. Nothing has changed in 2000 years. When you come to Yeshua you leave all those old celebrations behind and keep a new set of feasts. You look at scripture differently and have less tolerance for sin or for other religions. And they don't like it! You, who are there and know the situation as well as what you believe made the determination that celebrating birthdays is wrong, and that your absence would have no major impact on your son's mental state. The world hates that because they hate God. This scripture is encouragement to stand your grouond and do what you believe right! Notsarim were the early sect of Messianic believers. You might recognize them as Nazarenes. Remember Paul was said to be a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes? These are the guys we try as much as possible to emulate. If you are a true Messianic believer then You are of the Notsarim. So for a visual illustration, just look in the mirror ... that's a Nazarene staring back at you! We don't get to chose how we observe Shabbat. Going to a pagan feast is in no way observing Shabbat. It is breaking the Sabbath, plain and simple. Now, as I have said there are valid reasons for breaking the Sabbath. But breaking Shabbat even to help your disabled son is not "keeping the Sabbath." It would be breaking it for cause. That's why I advise make sure it is a valid reason and not and excuse if you are going to break Shabbat. But never confuse breaking it for cause with worshiping differently. That's the same as what Nadav and Avihu did, bringing strange fire before the Lord. And they were killed for it on the spot! That's how serious God is with our worship of Him. Not to say you can't pray to Him, be mindful of Him and of the sin around you whenever you find yourself in pagan circumstances, especially on Shabbat. But we shouold NEVER confuse that with worship! Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jun 25, 2019 4:42:40 GMT -8
That is what I figured.
Yes, whenever I am around people here on Sabbath I keep praying silently in between.
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Post by mystic on Jun 29, 2019 4:36:06 GMT -8
So I am thinking of asking my older son to sub for me on Mike's birthday, this way I will stay inside the house for the most part until Sabbath ends at 8.35 on Aug 11, that is the time I am seeing right now for that date. Would this be ok though since we are not supposed to have people do for us anything which we are not supposed to be doing ourselves?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2019 5:25:00 GMT -8
No, you shouldn't ask someone to do something you would feel is sinful doing yourself. The fact you're asking the question is why I'm saying you shouldn't. I'm not G-d, I'm not the judge, and I don't know where you are in learning with Him. I'm just going by the fact you asked, therefore you know there's something wrong with it, and I feel obligated not to give you the ok to do something sinful if you ask.
That's how it can feel sometimes in these conversations. I won't say yes if there's any question its wrong because then I'm sinning.
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Post by mystic on Jun 29, 2019 6:51:30 GMT -8
Dan had said the higher commands take priority sometimes. In this case, Mike being Autistic does not understand all that will be needed for his Birthday Party. I had asked him to keep it on a Sunday so I would be able to participate and help since everything runs through me here. He said "he will handle it" but he is not aware of the many issues which will need to be taken care of. So for those reasons I am hoping God will not be too hard on me asking my older son to do what I do.
Mike will attempt to have his party no matter what as he doesn't see obstacles so way I see this comes back to is it ok to do good for someone on the Sabbath? In this case I am thinking yes.
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Post by alon on Jun 29, 2019 7:22:01 GMT -8
Dan had said the higher commands take priority sometimes. In this case, Mike being Autistic does not understand all that will be needed for his Birthday Party. I had asked him to keep it on a Sunday so I would be able to participate and help since everything runs through me here. He said "he will handle it" but he is not aware of the many issues which will need to be taken care of. So for those reasons I am hoping God will not be too hard on me asking my older son to do what I do. Mike will attempt to have his party no matter what as he doesn't see obstacles so way I see this comes back to is it ok to do good for someone on the Sabbath? In this case I am thinking yes. Elizabeth is right. If it is wrong for you to do it then it is wrong to ask another to do it for you. But you are overthinking this. The real issue is would your non-participation be detrimental to your autistic son's state of mind. If no, then just stay away and leave it at that. But if yes, in my mind the higher mitzvah is to go to the party. But that's just my opinion. It's what I'd do in your circumstance. Now if your other son is going anyhow and you want to go after sundown, and the party will still be going, then that is a different matter. In that case yes, if he can fill in for you until you get there then that is fine. He's there anyhow, you will be there late so you aren't blowing off the autistic son, and the only issue then is your attendance at a birthday party. I am reasonably sure in that case the higher mitzvah is to go for the sons' sake. It sounds as if you are making every effort to not violate Shabbat. But you cannot control others. But again, you are the only one that knows all the circumstances. You know your son while we do not; his needs, his likely response. So you will have to make the decision based on that knowlege and do the best you can. Just make sure none of it is an excuse to do as you want; and that is the really tough call to make. Do your best, and ask forgiveness for the rest. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2019 7:43:25 GMT -8
Some may argue it gets a bit more complicated as kids get older, but I don't think so as we still set examples. Also, in terms of Torah and Yeshua's ways we are all little babies, especially considering our own kids that we've already undermined in terms of their life and walk with G-d.
Hear oh Israel, the L-RD our G-d, the L-RD is One. And you shall love the L-RD your G-d with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children...
I think it's really wrong to encourage your children away from Torah, and if you feel it's against Torah to the point you won't attend, you're causing your son to knowingly sin as he will have to understand Torah better or worse just to agree to fill in or not for you.
It seems like a way your going to make the situation wrong for and confuse your older son to me. We can't start thinking, "if they're going anyway..." because that's where we start getting drawn into the confusion and promoting other people's confusion and sin. Especially as a loophole to represent yourself through your son, I just think it's worse then if you went on your own as now he's being drawn into the doubt and sin you have while you alleviate your own feelings of guilt. Seems really wrong and confusing to me on your older son's account.
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- there are 70 faces to 
at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you should also know that he is the Father of everyone who does what is right.
