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Post by Elizabeth on May 11, 2019 9:38:45 GMT -8
So where does MJ fit into the mix, more with Conservative, in the middle between Orthodox and Reform? It probably varies between people. I personally don't really consider Reform Judaism to be a valid form of Judaism. I think most Messusnic believers would feel similarly just because we're here to learn and live more according to Torah, which they disregard. In that way, we probably have more in common ideologically with Orthodox Judaism; the high regard for Torah that I would assume most of us have. However, I don't think we have much in common with Orthodox Judaism in more obvious lifestyle ways as much of what they do is Rabbinic in nature. From what I've heard here though, some Messisnic people choose to practice more consistently with the Rabbinic traditions than others, so it likely varies. Meanwhile, I really only think of Orthodox Judaism when I think about Judaism so in terms of expectations, hope, and regard for G-d; I have more in common with them. I just realized that's because it's just more consistent with Yeshua's life and example. Though, He took issue with Rabbinic traditions that were contrary to Torah, He lived obediently to Torah. So I think we would have to say we have more in common with Orthodox Judaism because of Him. Reform and conservative weren't even in existsnce in His time. That being said, there are a lot of differences besides Who is Messiah. I would feel uncomfortable for all involved saying I have a lot in common with their religion, but because of Yeshua and where all this is going, I feel like I do. |
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Post by rakovsky on May 12, 2019 16:46:18 GMT -8
There is a strange dynamic happening in Protestantism now that I think about it, and I wonder if it has to do with people using the Bible to justify a misguided concept of love and grace to appeal to a broader audience. B ecause they can point at the Bible to justify their view, they think they're somehow still supported in tradition. There is a trend to accommodate the sentiments held in modern society by misapplying or oversimplifying scripture, so I think there's some confusion about how far away from scripture they really are sometimes. This is one of the main problems that Catholics and Orthodox see in Reformed Protestantism. While some Protestants, like Lutherans and Anglicans in particular, wanted to respect Christian traditions when it came to understanding Christianity, many others, who emphasize a "Bible only" view characterize their own preferred view as supposedly Biblical. The Catholic and Orthodox official approach to understanding ambiguities in scripture of course does involve the guidance of the Holy Spirit and prayer, but it also involves looking to Christian traditions. So they would try to read what Christians wrote about the questions at hand back in the 1st and 2nd centuries, even beyond the Bible's words. So when it comes to infant baptism, for example, the 2nd century records about it are very important for our Churches.
For many "Bible only" "Reformed Protestants" on the other hand, those early records aren't considered important, and instead the modern groups base their beliefs on their own preferences and judgments and reasoning (like whether they nowadays believe that infant baptism is right or not). The natural overall result of this "do it your own" approach is hundreds or thousands of splinter groups with opposing doctrines.
Personally I think that the Catholic infallible magisterium approach, as well as the Reformed, "Do it alone" approach, are both extremes with downsides. One is absolutely locked into old thinking, whereas the other one practically disproves itself (except unfortunately to its own followers) by the confusion that it generates.
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Post by alon on May 12, 2019 17:05:16 GMT -8
This is one of the main problems that Catholics and Orthodox see in Reformed Protestantism. While some Protestants, like Lutherans and Anglicans in particular, wanted to respect Christian traditions when it came to understanding Christianity, many others, who emphasize a "Bible only" view characterize their own preferred view as supposedly Biblical. The Catholic and Orthodox official approach to understanding ambiguities in scripture of course does involve the guidance of the Holy Spirit and prayer, but it also involves looking to Christian traditions. So they would try to read what Christians wrote about the questions at hand back in the 1st and 2nd centuries, even beyond the Bible's words. So when it comes to infant baptism, for example, the 2nd century records about it are very important for our Churches.
For many "Bible only" "Reformed Protestants" on the other hand, those early records aren't considered important, and instead the modern groups base their beliefs on their own preferences and judgments and reasoning (like whether they nowadays believe that infant baptism is right or not). The natural overall result of this "do it your own" approach is hundreds or thousands of splinter groups with opposing doctrines.
Personally I think that the Catholic infallible magisterium approach, as well as the Reformed, "Do it alone" approach, are both extremes with downsides. One is absolutely locked into old thinking, whereas the other one practically disproves itself (except unfortunately to its own followers) by the confusion that it generates.
Sadly, most people just believe what they are told, Protestant or Catholic. If either one stops doing that, Messianism tends to happen!  Dan  C |
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Post by mystic on May 17, 2019 3:19:41 GMT -8
I found something interested here on the playing of pre-recorded music during Shabbat: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/95534/listening-to-music-on-shabbosFirst I don't agree with this at all Of all the many instances in the  showing people using music to honor God [especially David], I cannot imagine why this would be forbidden. Speaking for myself there are certain tunes which lifts me up spiritually and brings me closer to God so why not do it? Hmnn, that's interesting to me because if it should be a song with questionable lyrics I would normally skip it but does the above mean I should try to block it out but leave it playing? |
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Post by alon on May 17, 2019 3:53:28 GMT -8
Of all the many instances in the showing people using music to honor God [especially David], I cannot imagine why this would be forbidden. Speaking for myself there are certain tunes which lifts me up spiritually and brings me closer to God so why not do it? Hmnn, that's interesting to me because if it should be a song with questionable lyrics I would normally skip it but does the above mean I should try to block it out but leave it playing? Again, you are getting this from a Rabbinical Judasim source. We do not interpret scripture as strict as they do. And in fact, those proscriptions are nowhere in . Especially the one about no music. The one about hitting a button or switch on an electrical device is an interpolation of the proscription of making a fire on Shabbat. They say if the device causes even the tiniest spark when you hit the switch you've created fire. We do not think this violates the law, and we turn electrical devises on and off. And we adjust them when necessary. The rabbis (we think) tend to get carried away with some of these interpretations. My advice is if music relaxes you and/or brings you closer to God then listen to it. And turn it off when you are done. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on May 18, 2019 4:09:20 GMT -8
The one about hitting a button or switch on an electrical device is an interpolation of the proscription of making a fire on Shabbat. They say if the device causes even the tiniest spark when you hit the switch you've created fire. We do not think this violates the law, and we turn electrical devises on and off. And we adjust them when necessary. Dan C That electricity issue has been a thorn in my side ever since I had first come across it, can you tell me exactly why you do not think it violates the law please? Also I can use clarity on this, I know we are not supposed to have people do anything for us which we should not be doing ourselves. Sometimes the others here order food on the Sabbath and will ask me what I want, even though I am not giving them any cash for it during Sabbath or at all, is it wrong for me to request anything? p.s. I have simply decided to not drink tea on Saturday mornings anymore so no need for me to worry about bending any rules. |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 18, 2019 10:41:07 GMT -8
We don't think flipping a switch or pushing a button is kindling a fire so don't have the same issues with using electricity that they have. The electricity I don't use has to do with cooking things and working. For example, electric kettles, ovens, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, and stoves I won't turn on. I don't turn the gas fireplace on either because that's clearly starting a fire though it's just flipping a switch, but I do freely flip switches to turn lights on and off. Further, listening to G-dly music and lessons or posting on here is part of the way I keep the Sabbath, so it's not about electricity but fire and cooking/working in my mind.
I personally don't eat anything bought on Saturdays or eat take-out and delivery on Saturday regardless of who bought it. If I am at a hotel, I buy food the day before and do whatever I can so I'm not causing someone else to work.
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Post by mystic on May 18, 2019 11:39:57 GMT -8
It's mostly unavoidable these days. Even the most Orthodox Jew in any cold part of the US/Canada needs electricity to run their heating system and this definitely uses fire whether you turn a switch on or not.
I wonder if Jews use air conditioning during extreme heat? I will ask.
I will need to ask my mom not to cook anything for me personally on Saturdays from now on as she asks this every Saturday morning but I guess I can eat from whatever is made generally for the household.
Far as when they order food, I will need to look into this too.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 18, 2019 12:37:56 GMT -8
It's mostly unavoidable these days. Even the most Orthodox Jew in any cold part of the US/Canada needs electricity to run their heating system and this definitely uses fire whether you turn a switch on or not. I wonder if Jews use air conditioning during extreme heat? I will ask. I will need to ask my mom not to cook anything for me personally on Saturdays from now on as she asks this every Saturday morning but I guess I can eat from whatever is made generally for the household. Far as when they order food, I will need to look into this too. I think they use timers for a lot of things that run on electricity, and that is ok then as far as their understanding goes because they aren't starting it if it goes on and off automatically. Similarly, I use the timer on our coffee pot on Saturdays so that we can have hot coffee without me having to start the machine on Saturday. Also, in terms of your mom. I'll give you another example for me so you understand more the context of my approach. Our situations are different and I don't want to mislead you so explaining a bit more just in case. If I'm at my mom's house, I eat the food she makes. I wouldn't feel like it's in G-d's will for me to cause offense or separate myself like that as I'm a guest in her home and her daughter. It just seems different as it's not my home or my place to tell my mom how to run her home. However, my mom is really understanding, and so going out or buying stuff on Saturday is not an issue at all. We just sit and visit anyway, but if she feels like she has to cook because that's what her family is generally used to and expects, then I just eat with them because otherwise I'm kind of making more work and worry for her by putting her in a difficult situation. She doens't make things I won't eat so she is really understanding and works to help people feel good who visit, and I just know it would put her in a difficult stressful situation and kind of ruin the day if I refused to eat. I don't see it doing anything good, but I can honor my parents and be fellowship with people over a meal so that's what I focus on in that situation. |
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Post by mystic on May 19, 2019 4:08:10 GMT -8
I think they use timers for a lot of things that run on electricity, and that is ok then as far as their understanding goes because they aren't starting it if it goes on and off automatically. Hmnn. makes me think would be the same principle and would be ok if I were to request something to eat when the others ordering food should ask. Can you link me to a coffee pot with a timer for this purpose please? |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2019 5:44:58 GMT -8
I think they use timers for a lot of things that run on electricity, and that is ok then as far as their understanding goes because they aren't starting it if it goes on and off automatically. Hmnn. makes me think would be the same principle and would be ok if I were to request something to eat when the others ordering food should ask. Can you link me to a coffee pot with a timer for this purpose please? You can just search coffee pot with timer on Amazon for some ideas. Ours is old and I'm not even sure where I got it, but it's not an uncommon feature. I'm not sure if I'm necessarily practicing a principle, and how your situation is. You should really prayerfully consider your individual situation. My general approach is to minimize the amount of sin when the situation is already wrong. My mom is a believer and respects my beliefs, so she is supportive of me but can't implement certain things in her home such as not cooking for people. If I'm there to shop the day before, I'll try to get food for Saturday that doesn't require us to cook. I also talk her into using paper plates and then I "work" in a way just to create less work - let people dish their own plates from the stove or dish it out for them instead of putting it all on the table for example. I do things to help her and cause less work and worry so she doesn't feel bad about not doing more. So I just support her the only way I know how; by not putting her in an unfair and unmanageable situation. When they are at my home though, they go along with what I do and seem to enjoy the day. It really depends on the person and the situation I think as their heart and place determines a lot of the issue and thetefore how best to handle it. |
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Post by alon on May 19, 2019 8:38:10 GMT -8
This conversation of late has become so illustrative of many of the things we as Messianics face. Often living in homes where only one spouse believes and the problems and resulting compromises we must make. Living where there are few or even no believers remotely close by, so we are alone trying to find our way in a pagan culture. And even how do we keep when so many of our daily choices involve decisions that, frankly we are not qualified to make! And turning to Christian or Jewish sources for instruction only compounds the confusion. So we are left to grope in the dark and find our way alone. Instead of giving specific instruction (which I am not really qualified to give either) or advice, right now I just want to encourage each of us to keep pressing forward, doing the best we can, and rely on grace to cover the times we get it wrong out of either ignorance or necessity. I ask forgiveness for those times either when I find out I did wrong, when I had to decide and know I could be wrong, or at the end of each day for whatever I did wrong that day (known and unknown). We all accepted a calling to follow Him in truth, and that is something we should not abandon. It is a covenant we made with the Almighty, and breaking it is a serous thing. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2019 14:05:44 GMT -8
This conversation of late has become so illustrative of many of the things we as Messianics face. Often living in homes where only one spouse believes and the problems and resulting compromises we must make. Living where there are few or even no believers remotely close by, so we are alone trying to find our way in a pagan culture. And even how do we keep when so many of our daily choices involve decisions that, frankly we are not qualified to make! And turning to Christian or Jewish sources for instruction only compounds the confusion. So we are left to grope in the dark and find our way alone. Instead of giving specific instruction (which I am not really qualified to give either) or advice, right now I just want to encourage each of us to keep pressing forward, doing the best we can, and rely on grace to cover the times we get it wrong out of either ignorance or necessity. I ask forgiveness for those times either when I find out I did wrong, when I had to decide and know I could be wrong, or at the end of each day for whatever I did wrong that day (known and unknown). We all accepted a calling to follow Him in truth, and that is something we should not abandon. It is a covenant we made with the Almighty, and breaking it is a serous thing. Dan C The good news is that we do have Yeshua's Spirit, so though we may not be qualified to advise, we don't have to be worried if we're really seeking to follow Him prayerfully. That's why I keep encouraging prayerful consideration. I don't think we can advise each other well because situations very even in our own lives. I do think though we can make good decisions through His spirit if we are prayerful and in control of our own emotions; not to over react, become overly emotional, or dejected over things being difficult and people not understanding. |
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Post by mystic on May 21, 2019 2:48:23 GMT -8
This conversation of late has become so illustrative of many of the things we as Messianics face. Often living in homes where only one spouse believes and the problems and resulting compromises we must make. Living where there are few or even no believers remotely close by, so we are alone trying to find our way in a pagan culture. And even how do we keep when so many of our daily choices involve decisions that, frankly we are not qualified to make! And turning to Christian or Jewish sources for instruction only compounds the confusion. So we are left to grope in the dark and find our way alone. Dan C You couldn't have put this any better Dan! You've described me situation to the letter. Yes Elizabeth, great insights on your part too, thanks guys. |
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Post by jimmie on May 21, 2019 7:31:27 GMT -8
So we are left to grope in the dark and find our way alone. Dan C John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
C
