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Post by mystic on Jan 9, 2019 14:53:11 GMT -8
Last week a customer of mine who I do advertising for called me one day during the week to drop by to get his monthly report and drop off payment but I could not have him come by on that day then he called me again on Saturday. Since he's a very busy businessman and is not in my area often I agreed for him to stop by after him making two attempts and not wanting to cause any issues between us.
I know I was breaking Sabbath rules by conducting business during Sabbath even though it was not work. Yesterday our heating broke and since there is no coincidence in the Jewish language even though I am not Jewish, just wondering?
Also what do you guys do when on vacation on a Saturday? Seems to me being on vacation during Sabbath should be breaking Sabbath rules, no?
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Post by alon on Jan 9, 2019 21:06:19 GMT -8
Last week a customer of mine who I do advertising for called me one day during the week to drop by to get his monthly report and drop off payment but I could not have him come by on that day then he called me again on Saturday. Since he's a very busy businessman and is not in my area often I agreed for him to stop by after him making two attempts and not wanting to cause any issues between us. I know I was breaking Sabbath rules by conducting business during Sabbath even though it was not work. Yesterday our heating broke and since there is no coincidence in the Jewish language even though I am not Jewish, just wondering? Also what do you guys do when on vacation on a Saturday? Seems to me being on vacation during Sabbath should be breaking Sabbath rules, no? If on vacation or traveling you should find a place to stop for Shabbat. But our halacha at my synagogue is you can travel a moderate distance if on vacation. Of course if you can find a Messsianic Synagogue you should ideally stop in that town and attend Erev Shabbat and Shabbat services. As for doing business on Shabbat, money transactions are prohibited. However, since this is a good customer and you have to make a living; and if he really cannot get by any other day, I think the higher mitzvah would be to provide for your family. Just don’t do any more than is absolutely necessary. We have people whose jobs require they work on Shabbat from time to time. They, like you feel bad about it, but that’s just the way it is. Just keep in mind there are promised blessings for keeping Shabbat, and consequences if you don’t. So let that be your guide and don’t do any more than really have to. Exodus 31:13b-17 (ESV) “... , ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”
So let this be your guide. If it absolutely cannot be helped, then (and this is just my opinion) do what must be done. But no more. Also note that this is a sign. A sign to who? Others. They see you will not break Shabbat and it is part of your witness to them. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 10, 2019 5:01:43 GMT -8
Ok so you can be on vacation but during the Sabbath wherever you are you will be required to still FULLY observe every Sabbath rules which means staying indoors and resting/worshipping, is this accurate?
Yeah I will try to not have anyone come here during Sabbath to not risk breaking the rules.
So does this answer my question that one can indeed be punished for breaking any Sabbath rules? "
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 10, 2019 5:58:51 GMT -8
That was when the Temple was standing and Torah was enforced within the nation of Israel by judges appointed according to rules G-d had in place. Torah is not currently enforced today in the same way. I'm not saying Torah is done away with. Yeshua took the penalty for those who believe in Him upon Himself, but the reason for keeping it is not to then to avoid punishment. We keep it because we love and trust G-d and want to because of the Spirit of Yeshua Who saved us and gave us a way.
There's consequences for every choice, but what you're saying sounds more like it's leaning toward superstition to me. I don't believe in coincidences as G-d is in control of everything, but everything breaks for the simple reason that we live in a fallen world. Now there is rhyme and reason in the world around us, but that's only because of G-d Who can cause it. Otherwise we'd just be in chaos, which is how people often feel. So G-d can bring about reason and order, but people don't have the wisdom or knowledge to always connect the right dots. I think you're connecting the wrong dots if you think G-d punished you in the way you're suggesting. It just doesn't fit His character.
It could be because of some human error or the simple truth that the works of the world and everything we have in it will at some point break and come to an end. All human securities will come to nothing, and if I were to add any spiritual significance to your heat breaking, I would not go any further than a simple reminder to depend on G-d and count your blessings. You're not in the cold, you have heat, and the means to fix it. The next step from thinking G-d punishes like that can perhaps be seen in people holding unfortunate people at fault for their circumstances in a way we don't have the wisdom to do.
Now if your heat were to never fail and need replacing, if you kept exceeding the warranty year after year; at some point I would attribute that as a blessing from G-d as that really would be an exception. But things breaking are the norm, so if you start seeing things like that as a punishment from G-d because of individual actions, it seems there'll be no end and you'll get caught up in trying to make sense of something beyond you. Seeing things the way it seems you may see the heat breaking could become a spiritual distraction and eventually even idolatrous as your spirituality could be stripped down to trying to control your life circumstances by trying to control G-d by what you do.
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Post by alon on Jan 10, 2019 16:03:36 GMT -8
Ok so you can be on vacation but during the Sabbath wherever you are you will be required to still FULLY observe every Sabbath rules which means staying indoors and resting/worshipping, is this accurate? No, you are dealing in absolutes. Vacations are for relaxing, and usually last more than 6 days. I said if possible you SHOULD stop where there is a Messianic synagogue where you can go and worship. However Messianic synagogues being in short supply, odds are this won't be possible. So you should stop before Shabbat and rest. But you don't have to stay indoors. You can still walk around and see the sights. Our halacha is you can even drive moderate distances and take in the sights. Just don't buy or sell or do any unnecessary work. Buy sandwich stuff on Friday and eat them for Shabbat. It's not that difficult, and you don't have to make it that way either. That is the best. But like I said, you have to make a living, and at times you may have to give them paperwork or take their check and give them a receipt. Just make sure they know that is all you can do, and you are making a special dispensation for them in doing it. That way there shouldn't be any "Oh, since I'm here can you do this for me too" requests. And if there are you can better deflect them without offending a customer. That would be our halacha though, not everyone's. I'm sure if you talked to your Orthodox friends they'd say not to do it. All I can tell you is what our halacha says and let you make up your own mind. Just be aware too we'd only do so in cases where he could not otherwise complete the transaction. For instance, paperwork can be mailed, as can checks. So unless there is a reason the customer absolutely needs to see you to complete the transaction you should not do it. Almost all businesses have regular hours. So saying you do not do business on Shabbat is a perfectly good practice. There will be consequences for breaking Shabbat without good reason. But there are good reasons for breaking it. As I've said before, as you do this more you will get more comfortable making those decisions on what is good reason and what is not. Meanwhile there is grace if you mess up (which inevitably you will). Don't make this into a grueling form of penance or something. Just do your best. And we promise to not put out a hit on you if you break the rules either!  But yes, when you knowingly break Shabbat there will be spiritual, and possibly physical consequences. God won't break your water heater, however He may remove His protection from you and the enemy would be more than happy to do something like that. Not saying that is what happened- I don't know. I do know you'll drive yourself crazy if you see every bad thing that happens as some consequence for some sin you committed at some time. Heaters break. Just fix it and move on. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jan 11, 2019 8:28:30 GMT -8
Let's change things up a bit. mystic, you are looking for a list of do's and don'ts. But let's get away from the "list mentality" for a bit, and work instead from principles. I used to train ambulance crews, and I'd always get questions about "what do I do if ... ." They wanted a list. My reply was always "I can't give you a list for everything you will run into out there. Every emergency is going to be different. But I can train you to work from principles, which I can also teach; and using those you can make your own list as you go." So here is a quotation from Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who used to be Chief Rabbi for the British Empire. Try to glean the principles from it, and then we can discuss any questions about them:
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks: “There is integrity to nature. Everything has its proper place, its ecological niche, its function and dignity in the totality of being. Holiness consists of respecting boundaries and respecting the natural order. When the first two human beings ate of the forbidden fruit, the essential harmony between man and nature was broken. Humanity lost its innocence. For the first time, nature (the world we find) and culture (the world we make) came into conflict. The result was paradise lost.
The danger immediately becomes clear. God tells the first man not to eat of the fruit of one tree. The nature of the tree is irrelevant; what matters is its symbolic function. It represents the fact creation has boundaries- the most important being the boundary between the permitted and the forbidden.
The sacrifice of the eighth day is the illumination God teaches us to make. It symbolizes our “partnership with God in the work of creation.” There is no more beautiful image than this of how God empowers us to join Him in bringing light to the world. On Shabbat we remember God’s creation.”
The eighth day he is referring to is:
Leviticus 9:1-2 (ESV) On the eighth day Moses called Aaron and his sons and the elders of Israel, and he said to Aaron, “Take for yourself a bull calf for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering, both without blemish, and offer them before the Lord.
If you start on Shabbat and count 8 days, you are back at Shabbat again. So the 8th day is a week bookended by Shabbat's. This is the passage where Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire and were killed.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jan 11, 2019 8:29:37 GMT -8
Great advice, thanks! Yes, my intent is not to purposely break any Sabbath rules and will try to avoid all work related transactions and physical work and entertainment. For example, for many years now myself and the guys have been going to Atlantic City on a Saturday to hang out with a couple of my closest buds who live there and one of the regulars here have been pestering me to go down there. I simply told him a couple days ago I "will not break Sabbath to go hang out anywhere" so he then said ok then we can go on a Sunday.
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Post by alon on Jan 11, 2019 8:35:21 GMT -8
Great advice, thanks! Yes, my intent is not to purposely break any Sabbath rules and will try to avoid all work related transactions and physical work and entertainment. For many years now myself and the guys have been going to Atlantic City on a Saturday to hang out with a couple of my closest buds who live there and one of the regulars here have been pestering me to go down there. I simply told him a couple days ago I "will not break Sabbath to go hang out anywhere" so he then said ok then we can go on a Sunday. Actually, Saturday evening, if you leave after it is dark is fine to go and have fun with friends. At least as long as the "fun" isn't anything wrong/sinful. Shabbat ends at sundown Saturday. I've never been, but from what I hear Israel virtually shuts down for Shabbat, but soon as the sun sets Saturday the entire country comes alive. Shops open, people go to movies or get together and cut loose! But good for you for standing on your principles! Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jan 11, 2019 14:04:58 GMT -8
Yes I understand I can go have some fun without sin after dark but I won't do that often. I think after Sabbath I am still in a very spiritual mood so don't wish to be among people or manly too much talking and crowd. I can always hangout on a Sunday should I feel the need to.
Actually before last sabbath I had looked forward to it and had found that I now welcome it and even got lazy now on Saturdays I think, I didn't even care to do much of anything except to lie down, rest and do some reading and praying in between during the day until time for Church at 5pm. Tomorrow is my cousin's birthday party, I had told her I will try to come after Church but I know I won;t be in the mood for that and if I should go I will only do it for her sake.
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Post by jimmie on Jan 11, 2019 15:03:32 GMT -8
Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Something to think on.
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Post by alon on Jan 11, 2019 15:12:14 GMT -8
Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Something to think on. Very true. But the principle here is that the Cohanim, and later the Rabbonim had to work on Shabbat to perform their duties to Elohim. This didn't mean they could do their laundry or build a birdhouse. Just that they performed their duties as instructed by God. However from this we can extrapolate the principle that there are some acceptable reasons for breaking Shabbat. That what you were getting at? Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 11, 2019 16:00:19 GMT -8
The preists profaned the sabbath by doing their usual work, but it was specifically commanded they do that work on the Sabbath.
I think we set the day aside as best we can, but if G-d allows something to happen that requires you to "work" the issue is maybe a question of whether G-d is giving you something to do or is it the world? If G-d puts someone before you to do something for, my thought is more likely to do for them because we're commanded to love people as well. I'm not talking about things you can plan around, but maybe someone drops over or something so you need to do work or cook just so they feel welcome. If you are making people feel unwelcome or burdensome in anything, then that would be an example of the wrong heart regarding the Sabbath I think. Im not referring to people who have made it a habit or goal to just disregard or hinder our efforts, though. That's a different issue and we're dealing with evil attacking us in those situations.
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Post by alon on Jan 11, 2019 16:49:53 GMT -8
The preists profaned the sabbath by doing their usual work, but it was specifically commanded they do that work on the Sabbath. I think we set the day aside as best we can, but if G-d allows something to happen that requires you to "work" the issue is maybe a question of whether G-d is giving you something to do or is it the world? If G-d puts someone before you to do something for, my thought is more likely to do for them because we're commanded to love people as well. I'm not talking about things you can plan around, but maybe someone drops over or something so you need to do work or cook just so they feel welcome. If you are making people feel unwelcome or burdensome in anything, then that would be an example of the wrong heart regarding the Sabbath I think. Im not referring to people who have made it a habit or goal to just disregard or hinder our efforts, though. That's a different issue and we're dealing with evil attacking us in those situations. OK, let's look at that from the standpoint of principles. First off, God is pretty smart. I think we can agree on that.  He knew that no list, even one He made can ever address every situation in every time and every place. That said, He does set some absolutes. If He said do this and be blessed, do it not and be cursed, then we do it. Right? Well, maybe not so much. There are exceptions, as demonstrated by Yeshua when He spoke of the priests profaning the Sabbath. So God also commissioned Moshe (according to Jewish tradition) to make halacha, rulings on how we walk out  . Part of this is the exceptions. You mentioned good deeds- and yes, that is a huge exception. You can judiciously do good deeds on Shabbat. What I mean by that is, in your example if someone else could cook for them on Shabbat you should try to make arrangements. If not then yes, you can cook for them as a mitzvah. Just like you said. And also like you said, if they are just trying to get you to break Shabbat, judiciously tell them no. And yes, we are often forced to just "set the day aside the best we can." But what does it mean to set the day aside? In my example above, Nadab and Abihu got burnt up for not doing things as God said. Now true, they were priests performing the inaugural ceremonies in the Mishkan. Not a good time to be disobedient. However I'd say God was telling us all He takes His Shabbat (which was made for us) very seriously. So what would you say is our benchmark for breaking Shabbat? The threshold if you will for its being acceptable. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 11, 2019 17:13:20 GMT -8
How is it better to have someone else cook for them? That feels like taking advantage of someone, causing them to sin unknowingly, and being proud to me somehow. I have seen that idea several times in different places, though, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Building on the idea that He made it for us, we also know He is L-rd of the Sabbath. If I thought G-d was giving me an opportunity to fulfill another commandment, especially regarding loving thy neighbor, I would probably prayerfully take it. The way I see it is He loves them, He brought them to me, and it's my job then to love them on His behalf. Maybe it's a way of including them for His sake. I don't know, I would "work" to find a way to see how G-d wants me to include them or just be happy with Him over them.
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Post by alon on Jan 11, 2019 23:11:15 GMT -8
How is it better to have someone else cook for them? That feels like taking advantage of someone, causing them to sin unknowingly, and being proud to me somehow. I have seen that idea several times in different places, though, so maybe I'm misunderstanding. We all have Christian friends and even unbelievers who are willing and even eager to help out. Since they don't keep Shabbat anyhow I don't think it is taking advantage to say "I'll help on Sunday when you are at church (or the tavern ... wherever) if you'll do Saturday which is my Shabbat." This way the person(s) get 2 hot meals instead of having to choose one to put in the fridge and eat cold or reheated the next day. In larger congregations the women will sometimes make up a schedule so a family suffering a recent loss has a hot meal every day for a week or more! That's not taking advantage, it's giving wisely. So your benchmark is love. If it is done in love, it's ok. I'd agree it should be done in love, whatever the benchmark. But love itself is a little too broad a standard, and I'd imagine you don't mean just because you both love horses you should include them in a Shabbat outing to the track. However you mentioned "good deeds" earlier. A good deed done in love which could not have effectively been done another day is a great benchmark, and one of the accepted exceptions to not working on Shabbat. I'll add another: health. If something is going to effect the health of you or your family and you have to work to correct it, then you'd do so. Say the fire goes out tomorrow on someone living in Alaska. They should correct the problem and start another fire instead of stubbornly waiting for sundown and the whole family catching bad colds and being miserable all day in the bargain. If you love your family, you care for them. In the language of the quote I gave, there is no dignity in sitting around shivering; and we don't "remember God's creation" by watching them freeze to death. That natural order is maintained when we care for others, as well as ourselves. If Yeshua said take pity on the livestock, feeding and watering them on Shabbat, how much more should we care for each other?And that too is a commandment, by the way: Deuteronomy 15:11 For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’
Ezekiel 16:49 (ESV) Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
Proverbs 21:13 (ESV) Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.
Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
