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Post by mystic on Aug 17, 2016 3:29:58 GMT -8
So here's my story guys. I had gotten divorced many years ago, since becoming born again 2 years ago after my son mike was hit with autism symptoms and I went to the lord for help, people have been telling me that being born again gives me a fresh start. If that is accurate, then this time around I do not want to do anything wrong with any future relationship and is why I am seeking answers for my predicament.
I had been in an off and on long distance relationship for about 10 years now, I will call her "Jane" for the purposes of this discussion. Jane and I have a very long history and connection going back to when she was only 9 years old but due to circumstances we had never gotten married to each other. Jane became single about 10 years ago, we reconnected through a very strange circumstance and unintentionally hooked up, meaning it just happened. Anyway, last time I had ended the relationship was about 2-3 years ago and for about a year now Jane had entered into a relationship with another guy but no sex, he's a god fearing man and she is trying to become as spiritual as she can be.
Then I entered back into Jane's life some months ago and while she still ultimately wants and always will want us to get married she is now torn between her responsibility to her current boyfriend and I. My first question guys is since it's my call if she is to end things with her boyfriend so we can re-establish our relationship, what are "my" responsibilities to God here? I have Jane's heart and always will, so is it fair for her to continue a relationship with the guy or end it it?
Yes Elizabeth, being a woman I would very much appreciate hearing from you especially from Jane's perspective please.
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2016 4:29:10 GMT -8
So here's my story guys. I had gotten divorced many years ago, since becoming born again 2 years ago after my son mike was hit with autism symptoms and I went to the lord for help, people have been telling me that being born again gives me a fresh start. If that is accurate, then this time around I do not want to do anything wrong with any future relationship and is why I am seeking answers for my predicament. I had been in an off and on long distance relationship for about 10 years now, I will call her "Jane" for the purposes of this discussion. Jane and I have a very long history and connection going back to when she was only 9 years old but due to circumstances we had never gotten married to each other. Jane became single about 10 years ago, we reconnected through a very strange circumstance and unintentionally hooked up, meaning it just happened. Anyway, last time I had ended the relationship was about 2-3 years ago and for about a year now Jane had entered into a relationship with another guy but no sex, he's a god fearing man and she is trying to become as spiritual as she can be. Then I entered back into Jane's life some months ago and while she still ultimately wants and always will want us to get married she is now torn between her responsibility to her current boyfriend and I. My first question guys is since it's my call if she is to end things with her boyfriend so we can re-establish our relationship, what are "my" responsibilities to God here? I have Jane's heart and always will, so is it fair for her to continue a relationship with the guy or end it it? Yes Elizabeth, being a woman I would very much appreciate hearing from you especially from Jane's perspective please.
There are several scriptural references to sex outside of marriage.
Exodus 20:14 (NASB) “You shall not commit adultery."
We are commanded not to engage in sex outside of marriage.
Yeshua quoted  when talking about this:
Matthew 19:4-5 (NASB) And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
He was referring to the following verses:
Genesis 1:27 (NASB) God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 2:24 (NASB) For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
He was talking about divorce, however these scriptures still provide us with God's plan for marriage and sex. Marriage is used all through the Bible as a type of our relationship with HaShem. Sex outside of marriage perverts this picture. Along this line of thought:
Hebrews 13:4 (NASB) Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
1 Corinthians 6:16 (NASB) Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.”
Here speaking of laying with a prostitute and telling us clearly it is not a good thing.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NASB) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Some liberal "Christians" (who are no more Christian than those who claim polygamy to be lawful are Messianic) will try to tell you that adultery is only sleeping with another man's wife. However they have a difficult time getting around this verse. Fornicators paints the topic with a wide brush. In fact, these liberals would like to see this verse removed from their Bibles- a thing they have done. But the Word of God endures, and they will be held accountable for their actions at the judgement, whether their Bible said this or not.
Revelation 21:8 (NASB) But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Again, "immoral persons" is pretty much all inclusive. We are to restrain our sexual activities to the marriage bed or face the second death.
As for dating and ending the other relationship; that would depend on how serious you are. In all fairness, if you are not considering commitment you can't ask her to walk away from someone who may be. This however brings up another topic, which is remarriage after divorce. And that is a big can of worms.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 17, 2016 5:45:11 GMT -8
Appreciate all of the quotes and insights Dan. We have no issue with the sex part, that is very clearly understood. Our main concern here is if it would be a sin for her [or myself] to end that relationship since none involved here is married?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 17, 2016 7:28:59 GMT -8
I am pretty extreme with the idea of marriage. I do believe G-d thinks on us enough to have created us with someone He wills for us as a spouse in mind. I also think most marriages in our society begin either outside the will of G-d or in complete rebellion. In that way, I think adultry is much more commonplace than even the church states and marriage a lot more complicated. I think that's why we see so much divorce and such; marriages outside G-d's will.
Now, the question in my mind is, if you find yourself in this place what do those who now learned to seek G-d's will do about it? I think it's quite simple, we continue to seek His will. If we try to figure it out and fix it on our own, we end up that much further outside His will by the nature of trying to rely on self instead of Him. I think we need to wait for G-d's wisdom and way to help us and make some good of it. There are many scriptural examples about how we can glorify G-d even in a place outside of where we think we should be or even where He originally willed us to be. Joseph in Egypt, Israel in the wilderness, and so on. He can fix it knowing all the perspectives, intricacies and consequences. We can't.
It is always about depending, trusting, and waiting on Him. The truth is that if He allowed it He can make good of it according to His plan and purposes, but whatever we do apart from Him will only take us further outsde His will making a bigger mess. Anyway, just to give you some perspective on my understanding for context.
I don't think it's a sin to end the relationship. I think it's more important to treat the person fairly and respectfully than to deceive them into thinking there is a future when you know there's not. That being said, given what I stated above and as you have said this is a new beginning for you, I would focus first on making sure each of you are where you need to be with G-d before figuring out where you should be with each other. Marriage is a union meant to help in the worship and glorification of G-d. It should bring you each closer to Him and help you become who He made you to be. So, I believe He needs to come first for each spouse for that to be accomplished. I would try to make the most of my new beginning by focusing on my relationship with Him and seek His will and guidance regarding His plan for marriage and my life by getting to know and relying on Him more fully.
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2016 7:48:36 GMT -8
Elizabeth, that is ok as far as general concepts on how to deal with his problem. But the real question is what is God's will as revealed in scripture as it applies to mystic's particular case. We don't know all the specific details of either divorce; nor should we. But the best thing is to read what the Word says, then sit down with a rabbi who he trusts and go over everything. But scripture is the bst check on whatever you think God is telling you to do. The Ruach will never contradict the Word.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 17, 2016 8:18:24 GMT -8
Elizabeth, that is ok as far as general concepts on how to deal with his problem. But the real question is what is God's will as revealed in scripture as it applies to mystic's particular case. We don't know all the specific details of either divorce; nor should we. But the best thing is to read what the Word says, then sit down with a rabbi who he trusts and go over everything. But scripture is the bst check on whatever you think God is telling you to do. The Ruach will never contradict the Word.
Dan C I guess I kind of thought you covered the specifics, and Mystic seemed to agree. I was focusing more on his question about ending the dating relationship. It may very well be within G-d's will to end that relationship. We as commenters can't know for sure, but the people involved can. If so, dragging it out wouldn't help anyone. My focus was then on what next between mystic and "Jane" if so. I was suggesting not to rush into a marital relationship with each other regardless; being firmly grounded in a relationship with G-d and seeking His will as the priority even if both are single. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 17, 2016 8:57:21 GMT -8
You not going to like what I have to say.
The marriage covenant is a Blood covenant (blood of a virgin) made between you and your spouse before the Father. Our Father is a Father of covenants and if we make a covenant we can not break the covenant. I am also divorce so I know the problem here. The fact remains we made a covenant TILL DEATH do as part. If you divorce, you only divorce in the world and not before Elohim, it is a covenant till we die. We do get forgiveness for the fact that we got divorce, but that in now way release us or breaks the covenant we made with our partner before OUR FATHER. The covenant is still very alive. Therefore we are not allowed to remarry if you are divorce. That is the reason why we must be careful to vow, because if we can't keep that vow......ask Yisra'el what happens. I know all the arguments and heard them many times before, The Father don't want anybody to be alone and on on on. Our FATHER is not a respecter of man get that very clear. If you end up alone because of your own choices do not blame HIM or try to make His Will according to yours. We have to fear HIM. The fact is we made a covenant before HIM as our witness till death.
Sorry but that is the truth.
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Post by kepha on Aug 17, 2016 9:21:48 GMT -8
(Deuteronomy 23:23) That which has gone out of your lips, you shall keep, and shall do it. According as you have vowed as a freewill offering to YHWH your Elohim, do even that which you have spoken with your mouth.†
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Post by mystic on Aug 17, 2016 11:16:10 GMT -8
Yes Elizabeth, I too don't see Jane ending that relationship would be a sin and as stated would be best for her not to give the guy false hope so assuming we have that part covered then comes the difficult part kepha has alluded to. I had looked into that aspect of not being allowed to remarry and that issue is as widespread with arguments for and against as the ocean is wide. The main argument I am seeing is if God wants us to be alone and miserable for the rest of our lives? If yes, that would suggest that his 'forgivemess' doesn't exist?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 17, 2016 11:44:59 GMT -8
You not going to like what I have to say. The marriage covenant is a Blood covenant (blood of a virgin) made between you and your spouse before the Father. Our Father is a Father of covenants and if we make a covenant we can not break the covenant. I am also divorce so I know the problem here. The fact remains we made a covenant TILL DEATH do as part. If you divorce, you only divorce in the world and not before Elohim, it is a covenant till we die. We do get forgiveness for the fact that we got divorce, but that in now way release us or breaks the covenant we made with our partner before OUR FATHER. The covenant is still very alive. Therefore we are not allowed to remarry if you are divorce. That is the reason why we must be careful to vow, because if we can't keep that vow......ask Yisra'el what happens. I know all the arguments and heard them many times before, The Father don't want anybody to be alone and on on on. Our FATHER is not a respecter of man get that very clear. If you end up alone because of your own choices do not blame HIM or try to make His Will according to yours. We have to fear HIM. The fact is we made a covenant before HIM as our witness till death. Sorry but that is the truth. I tend to agree with your conclusion about remarriage and marriage as a covenant, but I also think there may be many first and only marriages that are invalid. Two people can stand before a church and a preist and lie to each other, the priest, everyone in the room, but not G-d. People can have alterior motives or be pressured into marriages, even from within supposingly believing families and such. I am not convinced G-d sees such marriages as valid and wonder if they could be adulterous as well. I just don't think the line is as clear cut as what some try to make it. No sex outside of marriage is clear, but the grounds for valid marriages gets a bit less so for me. For example, if the woman is not a virgin upon marriage, according to your example, is the marriage valid? Generally, if virginity upon marriage is a requirement for validity, than not many believing couples marriages are valid at least in my society. Beyond that, there is the issue of sincerity and righteousness in consent and intent. Just cause it looks good according to our standards of what we see doesn't mean it is because we are getting into the inner most aspects of an individual's motivation, intention, and understanding. Things only G-d and that person could know. I am just not sure G-d consents to insincere vows and have my doubts about the sincerity of vows in some seemingly valid marriages. I can't know what's between a person and G-d, but I think there's a lot less room for judgment than what we sometimes hear from the believing community. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 17, 2016 11:56:07 GMT -8
No read carefully, I did state that there is forgiveness of the mistake to divorce, but you are still in the marriage covenant that stands before the Father. The fact that you are now alone is not by the doing of the Father but by our self's. I state again avinu YHWH is not a respecter of man and will not release you out of the covenant you made before HIM.The children of Yisra'el learned that the hard way He have let the whole generation of 20 and up of age die miserable in the desert. Now why do we think that some how we are special and He will allow us to just make and break covenants, because we are alone. The matter of the fact remains with marriage we make a blood covenant (read up about the blood covenant) that is the most important covenant of all to Elohim, and we think it is just ok to break that and make another. The blood covenant is so serious Yehsua our Master's gave HIS blood for as to make the new/second blood covenant with the father. If we say it is ok to remarry we are saying Father lied when He said: Deu 23:21 When you shall vow a vow to YHWH your Elohim, you shall not delay to perform it; for YHWH your Elohim will certainly require it of you, and it shall be sin to you. ° Deu 23:22 But if you shall forebear to vow, it shall be no sin to you. Deu 23:23 That which has gone out of your lips, you shall keep, and shall do it. According as you have vowed as a freewill offering to YHWH your Elohim, do even that which you have spoken with your mouth. And that will be Blasphemy. Also when you are not married is not to say that you are lonely and miserable, there are millions of people out there happy and by them self. I ended my relationship when I realize how important the marriage covenant is to Our Father, that I am not more special then all the people that have to bear their outcome of a choice they made. I was very  , but the sadness turned to a rejoices and let me grow. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 17, 2016 12:05:55 GMT -8
You not going to like what I have to say. The marriage covenant is a Blood covenant (blood of a virgin) made between you and your spouse before the Father. Our Father is a Father of covenants and if we make a covenant we can not break the covenant. I am also divorce so I know the problem here. The fact remains we made a covenant TILL DEATH do as part. If you divorce, you only divorce in the world and not before Elohim, it is a covenant till we die. We do get forgiveness for the fact that we got divorce, but that in now way release us or breaks the covenant we made with our partner before OUR FATHER. The covenant is still very alive. Therefore we are not allowed to remarry if you are divorce. That is the reason why we must be careful to vow, because if we can't keep that vow......ask Yisra'el what happens. I know all the arguments and heard them many times before, The Father don't want anybody to be alone and on on on. Our FATHER is not a respecter of man get that very clear. If you end up alone because of your own choices do not blame HIM or try to make His Will according to yours. We have to fear HIM. The fact is we made a covenant before HIM as our witness till death. Sorry but that is the truth. I tend to agree with your conclusion about remarriage and marriage as a covenant, but I also think there may be many first and only marriages that are invalid. Two people can stand before a church and a preist and lie to each other, the priest, everyone in the room, but not G-d. People can have alterior motives or be pressured into marriages, even from within supposingly believing families and such. I am not convinced G-d sees such marriages as valid and wonder if they could be adulterous as well. I just don't think the line is as clear cut as what some try to make it. No sex outside of marriage is clear, but the grounds for valid marriages gets a bit less so for me. For example, if the woman is not a virgin upon marriage, according to your example, is the marriage valid? Generally, if virginity upon marriage is a requirement for validity, than not many believing couples marriages are valid at least in my society. Beyond that, there is the issue of sincerity and righteousness in consent and intent. Just cause it looks good according to our standards of what we see doesn't mean it is because we are getting into the inner most aspects of an individual's motivation, intention, and understanding. Things only G-d and that person could know. I am just not sure G-d consents to insincere vows and have my doubts about the sincerity of vows in some seemingly valid marriages. I can't know what's between a person and G-d, but I think there's a lot less room for judgment than what we sometimes hear from the believing community. I hear what you say. The thing is if you vowed a vow with your mouth, before the Elohim it is a vow. It is the same as when you lie, I could reason but my attend wasn't bad and I really did not want to lie does that make it right? Read the scripture I gave it says clearly what ever you vow with your mouth, it does not matter if you really mean it or not. About the virgin or not virgin, if we just follow the Fathers will Everybody would be a virgin at their marriage. Also some thing our Father can not be blamed for but our selves. To Him it stays a vow you make. |
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2016 12:33:26 GMT -8
I guess I kind of thought you covered the specifics, and Mystic seemed to agree. I was focusing more on his question about ending the dating relationship. It may very well be within G-d's will to end that relationship. We as commenters can't know for sure, but the people involved can. If so, dragging it out wouldn't help anyone. My focus was then on what next between mystic and "Jane" if so. I was suggesting not to rush into a marital relationship with each other regardless; being firmly grounded in a relationship with G-d and seeking His will as the priority even if both are single.
Sorry. Foggy mind: no sleep last night. I misunderstood.
As to both couples marital status before Hashem, ever hear the phrase "The devil is in the details"? It's actually a nautical expression. In the days of sail, any difficult or tedious job was referred to as "the devil," as in "It'll be the devil to pay." To keep things watertight, they had to periodically "pay" the hull. They'd beach the ship and boil pitch, then force it into the joints on one side. This had to be completed before the tide came back in, at which time they'd roll the ship to its other side and do it again. So the "devil" (difficulty) in this problem mystic is asking about is "in the details." Was one of them in a marriage where the other spouse cheated? How about a marriage where the vows were exchanged in one of the "earth" (pagan) ceremonies that gained so much popularity in the '80's? Or how about common law marriages where no vows were ever exchanged? And the devil himself may literally be in the details. Our flesh- our emotions, drives and wants may make it easy for the adversary to manipulate the details to agree with our own will.
This problem needs to be brought before a knowledgeable Rabbi; and one who is not afraid to make the call based on scripture and the details he is presented with. There are some things I just don't think we here are qualified to answer, and this is one of them. I know it's a discussion forum and part of my job is to facilitate discussion. But we all need to remember that we are responsible and will be held accountable for any advice we give. I already have too much explaining to do at the judgement.
That's not to say we are wrong to give scriptural references and Godly advice based on Biblical concepts. But it is just that, advice- and that given by untrained people who don't know all the details and cannot read you as we talk. So the best advice remains "Seek the council of a good Rabbi." Not one who will tell yu what yu want to hear; but one you trust to tell you what you should do based on scripture, prayer and face to face discussions with you.
Dan (just my 'advice') C
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 17, 2016 13:14:49 GMT -8
Yes Elizabeth, I too don't see Jane ending that relationship would be a sin and as stated would be best for her not to give the guy false hope so assuming we have that part covered then comes the difficult part kepha has alluded to. I had looked into that aspect of not being allowed to remarry and that issue is as widespread with arguments for and against as the ocean is wide. The main argument I am seeing is if God wants us to be alone and miserable for the rest of our lives? If yes, that would suggest that his 'forgivemess' doesn't exist? I completely agree with Alon about the details and that you should seek a competent Messianic Rabbi for guidance on this. I also want to encourage you though. Seek G-d and His will and you won't be miserable whatever the outcome and circumstances. We don't know your story as Alon pointed out, and there are more qualified people to help you. We do know that G-d is gracious and loving and will work out what's best for you. Just hold on to that and trust that as He guides you through it. Prayers for you and that you are blessed through this experience mystic. G-d is good and has good things in store for those who love and seek to do His will. Prayers you find a good Rabbi and G-d's will for you is done. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 17, 2016 13:49:27 GMT -8
Well guys, since the law is as kepha mentioned then I am not seeing what any rabbi could say which will negate that?
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- there are 70 faces to 
, but the sadness turned to a rejoices and let me grow. 
