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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 17, 2016 15:20:50 GMT -8
Well guys, since the law is as kepha mentioned then I am not seeing what any rabbi could say which will negate that? I still agree with Alon to speak with an understanding and competent rabbi regarding the details and their impact. You at least will find a source of support and encouragement. The rabbi can also help you sort out and work through things for yourself so you can feel confident and encouraged in your decision. |
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2016 16:22:03 GMT -8
Well guys, since the law is as kepha mentioned then I am not seeing what any rabbi could say which will negate that?
mystic, as I indicated above, there may be mitigating circumstances. It is probably worth getting the opinion of a qualified Rabbi.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 18, 2016 2:40:15 GMT -8
I would focus first on making sure each of you are where you need to be with G-d before figuring out where you should be with each other. Marriage is a union meant to help in the worship and glorification of G-d. It should bring you each closer to Him and help you become who He made you to be. So, I believe He needs to come first for each spouse for that to be accomplished. I would try to make the most of my new beginning by focusing on my relationship with Him and seek His will and guidance regarding His plan for marriage and my life by getting to know and relying on Him more fully. That is the also one of the main problems I have been battling for a while now, I do not know if it is God that's leading me back to her. I have been saying a prayer for a long time now asking God if this is his will help me with it, if it is not then prevent me from it. Jane doesn't like that at all but what else am I supposed to do or how am I supposed to know? |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 18, 2016 3:46:41 GMT -8
I would focus first on making sure each of you are where you need to be with G-d before figuring out where you should be with each other. Marriage is a union meant to help in the worship and glorification of G-d. It should bring you each closer to Him and help you become who He made you to be. So, I believe He needs to come first for each spouse for that to be accomplished. I would try to make the most of my new beginning by focusing on my relationship with Him and seek His will and guidance regarding His plan for marriage and my life by getting to know and relying on Him more fully. That is the also one of the main problems I have been battling for a while now, I do not know if it is God that's leading me back to her. I have been saying a prayer for a long time now asking God if this is his will help me with it, if it is not then prevent me from it. Jane doesn't like that at all but what else am I supposed to do or how am I supposed to know? I would be extra cautious and slow things down even more if this is the case. It has been my experience that G-d is pretty clear. your wife to-be should want a husband who seeks G-d's will in all things. That prayer should not upset her in my opinion. It's a bit of a red flag for in my mind, and I would really focus on making sure the experience you are having isn't hindering your relationship with G-d. |
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Post by jimmie on Aug 18, 2016 5:01:52 GMT -8
David married a woman who was promised to him but later given to another. He also put away 11 wives. Someone, a Rabbi maybe, who is well versed in the Bible could help you with looking at these and other details.
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Post by kepha on Aug 18, 2016 6:29:26 GMT -8
Well guys, since the law is as kepha mentioned then I am not seeing what any rabbi could say which will negate that? Sorry buddy but I am not one to sugar coat the truth. I know your pain!! Be assured that Avinu, even if it is not possible for Him to go against His own Word, and can not release you from a covenant you made, be assured that He can and He will comfort you if you turn to HIM. We live everyday with the consequences of the choices we made, but our Father is there to help us live through them if we let Him. He is also there to teach us to make better choices that is in His will, if we let Him choose for us and live our life totally for Him. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 18, 2016 6:52:21 GMT -8
David married a woman who was promised to him but later given to another. He also put away 11 wives. Someone, a Rabbi maybe, who is well versed in the Bible could help you with looking at these and other details. So what are you saying, it is ok for us to just marry and marry again and so cause David had 11 wives? Even if the  says otherwise. David had his fair share of living with your choice's consequences. His one son from one wife raped David's beloved daughter of one of his other wife. Then one of his other sons which David very much loved, Abshalom tried to kill him and take his kingdom, he had to flee. His loyal friend betrayed him. Believe me he was not with out sins and he did bear his consequences, how ever David knew how to Repent and I believe him to be the third in the Kingdom one day just below Yeshua. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 18, 2016 9:24:38 GMT -8
Meantime, I just received this from a friend of mine who is remarried christian, what do you guys think?
Mike, this question can generate great difference of opinion based on what a person's understanding of the scriptures are and where they are in their personal walk with the Lord, I think that's important. The scriptures in the new testament (reference Matthew 5:31-32 and Luke 16:18) does speak of it being sinful if a person divorces then remarries (but it seems to refer that it's because the spouse perhaps got tired of their partner and didn't honor their covenant Mark 10: 2-12) however, note that divorce is also permitted due to adultery.
There's a couple things to note here; first of all, the audience Jesus is speaking to are the Jewish people who lived under the law. Remember, we are NOT under the law, but under GRACE...at the time Jesus is walking with the disciples he still observed the Jewish law....but scripture says He came to fulfill all of the law. .not saying that's permission to do as you please and what feels good by any means. Another thing to remember according to Hebrews 8 Jesus was given the ministry of a new (better covenant) because the old was insufficient.
I can tell you this; I was married, divorced and remarried again, of course I didn't know the Lord at that time, but I'm confident I'm a child of the Most High God, whose sins have been washed and covered by the Blood of Jesus. Also, each person should seek God's council in every aspect of their life and most definitely when it comes to relationships/marriage. God is merciful, full of forgiveness.... He does not condemn us (Satan does...he's the accuser), however, God also sees and knows our heart, our attitude and motives.....I believe God looks at the circumstance as well....we do well to keep God's word, His council in the midst of the situation. Hope that helps.
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Post by kepha on Aug 18, 2016 9:48:16 GMT -8
Let's see what Yeshua said if He came to do away with the .
(Matthew 5:17) Do not think that I came to annul the or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one yod or one stroke pass away from the until all comes to pass.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever loosens one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the worst in the kingdom of Heaven†. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 5:17-19 are extremely clear that Yeshua's intention was NEVER to abolish the eternal of YHWH, but to magnify the intent.
So what did He mean then when He said "I did not come to annul, but to fulfill"?
He fulfilled the prophesies about His coming. He fulfilled the prophesies about Him dying for our sins. He fulfilled the prophesies that His own people will reject Him. He fulfilled the establishment of the New Covenant where under we have forgiveness of our sins. And more prophesies about His purpose and Being our Salvation, that HE did fulfill.
He did NOT fulfilled or done away with the .
I don't understand what part of this the Christians do not get.
kepha, please watch those tags at the bottom when you copy from another forum. They automatically come with the copy, and they then direct others to that forum. This is not allowed here. And again, if you do copy from another forum you should, as a courtesy to them and to avoid problems between the two forums only copy your own work. I assume that is the case, but want to remind you of it anyhow. alon
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Post by mystic on Aug 18, 2016 10:23:18 GMT -8
Hmnn, I think that one is pretty clear.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever loosens one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the worst in the kingdom of Heaven†. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
Oh boy, that means I will need need to be alone in my old age? Ouch!!
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Post by kepha on Aug 18, 2016 11:39:45 GMT -8
Hmnn, I think that one is pretty clear. Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever loosens one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the worst in the kingdom of Heaven†. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. Oh boy, that means I will need need to be alone in my old age? Ouch!! Hahaha yeah sorry buddy, they do how ever say that a dog is ones best friend. I am getting myself a German Shepard when I am old lol |
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Post by mystic on Aug 18, 2016 12:21:03 GMT -8
Ok, so what do you say to this?
Corinthians 7:9 also deals with the issue of marriage. It is better to marry than to burn.
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Post by alon on Aug 18, 2016 15:15:01 GMT -8
First off, I think his opinion is likely a bit skewed, both because he is Christian and because he was divorced and remarried. And here his vacillation proves he is not honest with either himself or you. Scripture says what it says, and his deferring to opinion rather than scripture is a red flag.
Matthew 5:31-32 (NASB) “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces [Or sends away] his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced [Or sent away] woman commits adultery.
Luke 16:18 (NASB) “Everyone who divorces [Or sends away] his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced [Or sent away] from a husband commits adultery.
Those brackets are translators notes found in the footnotes of any New American Standard Bible. Note that in Mat 5:31, it starts out with the term “Whoever sends his wife away.” But then, as in most Christian translations it says ”divorce” instead of “sent” or “sends away.” I’ve heard that at the time Yeshua said this there was a problem where men were sending their wives away but refusing to give them a writ of divorce. So these women either lived their lives alone and chaste, or they committed adultery. So did the men who laid with them. But in effect, Yeshua was not talking about divorce at all. He was apparently addressing another problem entirely.
Your friend does allude to this in his parenthesized statement “but it seems to refer that it's because the spouse perhaps got tired of their partner and didn't honor their covenant Mark 10: 2-12.”
Mark 10:2-12 (NASB) Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce [Or send away] a wife. And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away [Or divorce her].” But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, “Whoever divorces [Or sends away] his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces [Or sends away] her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”
In verse 4 where it says “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away [Or divorce her]” it indicates either there was some confusion in the Greek translation from the original Hebrew, or some later confusion. There could even have been confusion in Jewish interpretations of scripture at the time. Alternatively, it could mean there is a qualitative connection between the terms “divorce” and “send away.” This is why Messianics use the whole Bible. Since we find the New defined in the Old, we can usually have clearer answers. Unfortunately this is not one of those times:
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NASB) “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.
The first thing we have to understand about this passage is it was not placed in the section of “laws” dealing with adultery, but in the section dealing with theft. This sheds light on the intent; that is the taking of another man’s wife. The next thing is that this is a type of law referred to today as “case law.” It does not follow the form of absolute laws, which typically start out something like “thou shall or shalt not.” “case law” generally starts out “If, when etc.” Note too that the penalty for adultery was death by stoning, so the indecency in her was not consummated in adultery (since she is alive to remarry), but was something lesser like a foul mouth or exposing herself.
Deuteronomy 24:1 (KJV) When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Translations which follow the King James version (above) are wrong, and have caused much confusion. According to the KJV interpretation of this verse Elohom sanctions divorce. He does not sanction it, but apparently He did allow it under some circumstances.
The term translated “uncleanness” could be literally translated as “nakedness of a thing.” In Yeshua’s time there were two main schools of thought- those of Shammai and Hillel. Rabbi Shammai placed emphasis on “nakedness,” and so interpreted this to mean unchastity. Rabbi Hillel placed his emphasis on the term “thing,” and so his interpretation was it meant indecency or anything which displeased the husband (bad cook, poor housekeeper etc.). So there was some confusion about divorce in Yeshua’s day, even between the two predominant Rabbis of the time.
Now you can see why I said this is a can of worms which needs a good Rabbi well versed in both the TNK and the B’rith Chadashah as well as other documents such as the Mishna to sort it out.
I think by now you can recognize Christian doctrine where they’ve mistranslated and misinterpreted the Word of God, bending it to their own purposes. They’ve done away with the “law” and under grace they just do whatever they think right and are forgiven. Grace does forgive, but only sins for which we have repented or for unintentional sins where we truly did not know. I’ve shown you in other posts how their interpretation of “fulfill” is a lie. Not just wrong, but an outright lie. Your friend may believe the lie, but that does not make it truth when he vomits it in your presence.
Hebrews 8 speaks of a time when all men shall know God. Do all men know God now? It also speaks of God writing His laws on our hearts. To be written on your heart is a Hebrew idiom for being commited to memory. Ask your friend to quote you the Bible. Or just . Or just one book of … one chapter … how about just the ten commandments- can he quote the verses enumerating those? Can he even list them from memory? Then he is again regurgitating a lie. And he needs to realize this, because even though he believes it he has the book which, if he studies it for the truth will show him the lies in what he has been told. Most of us here came to Messianic Judaism searching for the truth because we saw just a few of the lies. If I can, he can, and so he’ll have to answer for it. … and many of us saw the lies because someone pointed out just a few of them to us.
But here's the point; Hebrews 8 speaks of the Olam Haba, the world to come. It is prophetic of a time after Yeshua returns. Not comes- He did that already; but returns to claim what is His by right of creation and now purchase. We are not yet in that time, and for Christians to pull that verse out of context and apply it to us now is disingenuous at best. And it is a Renewed Covenant, not a New one. Covenants cannot be changed other than by adding to until all is fulfilled. And your Christian standing there stammering, trying to remember all ten commandments is more than adequate proof that all is not yet fulfilled.
He is right saying we should seek God's council- at least on the surface. To a Christian this means say a prayer then do what you "feel" is right. To us means prayerfully get into the Word before making important decisions, such as marriage.
What was done before salvation is forgiven. But a requisite part of salvation is repentance. And yes, you can be forgiven sins after salvation, if you repent. But can a man truly repent if he has willfully married knowing the conditions of that marriage are wrong? And what do you do with the new wife and kids after you repent? Again, we make for ourselves no end of troubles if we disobey.
More idiocy taught in church and spewed as vomit on the streets. Just what do they think ha’satan is accusing us of? BREAKING THE LAW! No law, no infraction by which we can be accused. And what does God forgive us of? Our infraction of His law! Again, if He did not tell us not to do a thing, it would not be sin for us to do it. But He gave us His , now we are responsible.
You have to get inside the Christian mind a bit here. To them what is required is to “follow Jesus” example here on earth. Now this is vague and open to interpretation what this means in any given scenario. So your Christian’s sins are covered not only by grace, but because he THOUGHT he was doing right. But again I tell him and every Christian, they hold the every time they pick up a Bible. And just because they think Jesus did away with it does not mean they will not answer for violating it.
How does your friend reconcile his own words in these two statements he made: “we do well to keep God's word, His council in the midst of the situation” and “at the time Jesus is walking with the disciples he still observed the Jewish law?” In His whole time here on earth, before and after His resurrection, Yeshua was a observant Jew. So just what "Jesus" are they following? The observant Jew; or the one presented to them by the church fathers, all of whom wrote virulently anti-Semitic statements and remade Yeshua in THEIR pagan image, even giving Him a new name- Jesus.
I am not being disrespectful of the name "Jesus" here, just so we are clear. It is still a name used for God. I am simply pointing out what the church fathers and all who've since followed them have done to the name and person of this man they say they worship and follow.
I say what I usually say: read it in context:
“First” Corinthians 7:8-9 (NASB) But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
While this is in a section dealing with divorce, clearly this particular passage was directed at those “unmarried and widows.” To wit, legitimately single folk. Rav Sha’ul never married, but others might not have the self-control to live as he did, and for them it would be better to marry than live in a constant state of temptation.
The King James Bible left out the explanative part “with passion.” Most translations since, including the New King James add this phrase.
Even Strong’s gets this one right:
“burns” G4448 πυρόω puroō poo-ro'-o From G4442; to kindle, that is, (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): - burn, fiery, be on fire, try.
So this says if you are legitimately single, and your temptation is too strong, then find a spouse and quit lusting about everything you see walking by. Divorce however opens a can of worms that may be difficult to resolve.
We were not meant to be physically alone in this world. So I am not going to tell you not to remarry. Neither will I tell you to remarry either. All I can tell you is I know enough to know I don't know. You need to find someone who does; someone qualified to make a ruling on your specific case. This means a Messianic Rabbi who knows , knows the Renewed Covenant (NT) and who is familiar with the sayings of the great men of Judaism as recorded in the Mishnah (first part of the Talmud).
Dan C
edit: I spoke rather harshly about Christian doctrine here, using terms like "vomit." This was meant to show these doctrines as the filth they are. I do not hold animosity towards Christians, even pastors (who really should themselves know better). They are under a delusion of ha'satan, taught as dogma in their churches and seminaries. We need to show them the errors in their thinking. (But I wouldn't use the term vomit speaking to them ... just a little discernment there). "Hate the sin, not the sinner" is a Christian saying they almost got right. I do hold a lot of animosity for the church fathers who first made up these lies. But I was once a Christian, and I believed almost all their lies. Was it kepha that said he wandered around in shock the first months after becoming Messianic? he was pretty much spot on. Once you see you were lied to in a few things and start looking, the lies start piling up. And once you become Messianic and start hearing about them from people who know, they can just overwhelm a person. The men who established Christianity as a religion were the mouthpieces of Hell. And now a huge part of the world is deceived. And their lies were and are as filthy as vomit!
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Post by kepha on Aug 19, 2016 1:47:13 GMT -8
kepha, please watch those tags at the bottom when you copy from another forum. They automatically come with the copy, and they then direct others to that forum. This is not allowed here. And again, if you do copy from another forum you should, as a courtesy to them and to avoid problems between the two forums only copy your own work. I assume that is the case, but want to remind you of it anyhow. alon
Sorry Alon I edit it away, and yes that is my own work and is from a forum I am still designing. Just trying with the forum to do more for Avinu in His service for the Kingdom. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 19, 2016 7:23:16 GMT -8
“burns” G4448 πυρόω puroō poo-ro'-o From G4442; to kindle, that is, (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): - burn, fiery, be on fire, try.
So this says if you are legitimately single, and your temptation is too strong, then find a spouse and quit lusting about everything you see walking by. Divorce however opens a can of worms that may be difficult to resolve.
lol, that certainly made laugh Dan [thanks] but yes, that's very accurate, unfortunately! The loneliness does get to me at times, when it does happen I go to prayer and that calms it, temporarily. It's not easy living a stress-filled life as I do and having to do it alone. As mike's therapist told me, I need an "affection outlet" [too bad she's married  ] but I don't wish to get married again to be perfectly honest, been there, done that. I am only looking into this here to know what God's law is. I had tired looking into "Christian mingle" but that is not "mingling", that's a dating site and is not what I am seeking. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
] but I don't wish to get married again to be perfectly honest, been there, done that. I am only looking into this here to know what God's law is. I had tired looking into "Christian mingle" but that is not "mingling", that's a dating site and is not what I am seeking.
