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Post by kepha on Aug 23, 2016 11:52:37 GMT -8
sorry again but like I said if I lie to you what good will it do you and me?
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Post by alon on Aug 23, 2016 13:29:04 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NASB) “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.
This passage seems to expect that a divorced woman will remarry. But it doesn’t say Elohim likes that, or even that He is OK with divorce. It just says the first husband cannot take her back. And yet:
Jeremiah 3:1 (NASB) God says, “If a husband divorces his wife
And she goes from him
And belongs to another man,
Will he still return to her?
Will not that land be completely polluted [Or alienated]?
But you are a harlot with many lovers;
Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 3:12 (NASB) Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say,
‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not look upon you in anger.
For I am gracious,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not be angry forever.
So what are we to make of this? HaShem is faithful to take us back even after we, like Yisro’el have so many times left Him for other gods (even if that god was just our own self-will).
Again, you need a competent Rabbi to sort this out. I can give you my opinion, but it is probably skewed and I couldn’t be sure it is correct. So my advice is to ask someone who is studied and who is in authority. This means a good Messianic Rabbi.
kepha, I admire your zeal and your self-restraint in living your life as you do. But you and I are lay people. And this is a tough subject. So my advice to mystic is the same as that so many people have given me (albeit for different reasons): get professional help.
Dan  C
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Post by kepha on Aug 23, 2016 13:42:03 GMT -8
Very true yes and I only used this one to show the custom of putting the wife out of your house. Luk_16:18 Everyone divorcing his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who has been divorced from a husband commits adultery. Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3986/scriptures-which-apply-marital-relation#ixzz4IC4j2J1his what really makes the difference Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. Mar 10:12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery. I just don't see how any body could not understand this, or argue against it even if you are a Rabbi. Yeshua said it straight forward and very plainly. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NASB) “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.
This passage seems to expect that a divorced woman will remarry. But it doesn’t say Elohim likes that, or even that He is OK with divorce. It just says the first husband cannot take her back. And yet: |
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Post by alon on Aug 23, 2016 14:17:57 GMT -8
Because as I said earlier, this may refer to a problem that (I've been told) existed in the time of Yeshua where men were sending their wives away without the writ of divorce. The Greek term used here for "divorce" is "apoluō":
G630 ἀπολύω apoluō ap-ol-oo'-o From G575 and G3089; to free fully, that is, (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon, or (specifically) divorce: - (let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty.
So according to Strong's it can mean either divorce or just to send away. And I personally am not comfortable making a ruling on the matter. This requires some well versed in scripture,  especially. Also they need to know history and the customs of both Yisro'el and the region. They should be well versed in the Mishna and what the sages had to say on the subject. I just think we need to be cautious at times, acknowledging out limitations. You have done a lot of studying on this topic, which is admirable. But unless you hold the qualifications I just listed I'd advise you the same. Talk to someone who knows. But it is only my advice. I'm not making a ruling here either way.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 30, 2016 3:30:42 GMT -8
Hey guys, seems I got some more ammunition for discussion  . Kepha, In Deuteronomy 24:1-4, it says.... “If a man marries a woman but she does not please him because he found something indecent about her, he must write out a certificate of divorce for her, hand it to her, and dismiss her from his house. What say you guys to this please? |
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Post by kepha on Aug 30, 2016 6:34:17 GMT -8
If you read the you will see that such a woman would be brought to the High Priest and she could even been stoned to death. The parents would keep the first night sheet of the newly wed so that they have proof of the new wifes blood for if some one wants to bring false accusations against her, to proof she was pure. There was also that they where brought before the high priest if they cheated on their husbands and they had to drink of the Holy water that would if she was innocent nothing would happen to her, if she was guilty her thigh will fall away and her stomach would swallow up and she will become barren, so no man would touch her again. Num 5:15 then the man shall bring his wife in to the priest, and he shall bring in her offering for her, a tenth of an ephah of barley meal. He shall not pour oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a food offering of jealousy, a food offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance. Num 5:16 And the priest shall bring her near, and shall cause her to stand beforeYAHWEH. Num 5:17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel. And the priest shall take of the dust which is on the tabernacle floor, and shall put it into the water. Num 5:18 And the priest shall cause the woman to stand before YHWH, and shall make bare the woman's head, and shall give into her hand the food offering of memorial; it is a food offering of jealousy; and in the priest's hand shall be the bitter waters which cause the curse. Num 5:27 And when he shall cause her to drink the water, then it shall be, if she has been defiled and has committed a trespass against her husband, the waters which cause the curse shall go into her for bitter things; and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse in the midst of her people. Num 5:28 And if the woman has not been defiled, and is pure, then she shall be clean and shall conceive seed. All that said the fact remains that Yeshua came to complete the by magnifying the with the mountain sermon Matt:5 - 7 and He clearly say that if you divorce you are not allowed to marry again. Luk 16:18 Everyone divorcing his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who has been divorced from a husband commits adultery. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 30, 2016 8:22:33 GMT -8
Mystic as I was driving just now a thought came in my mind I want to share with you. When ever I am in doubt about any thing of the Word what i do first is to go search what did Master Yeshua said to us concerning the issue, since He was the one that Magnified the and He is the example we must follow. Then only will I go back to the mostly to go see why He said so and to learn the law about it. You are one out of at least a million people Master Yeshua and the Father chose to show the truth to, yes i say again you are 1:1`mil people. That does not make us better than any body else out there, but you received a great present from Elohim, and he chose you out of so many people in the world. You are called to be a disciple, now a lot of people say I am a disciple, but to them it is only a saying. we are truly called out of all the people in the world to the truth. There for we have to step up a little bit, things like to use the True Names, to follow the , we have to be examples for other people. We are the Ambassadors of the Kingdom called out of the world for His Kingdom. Hopes this helps you. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 30, 2016 8:32:19 GMT -8
Yeah, great advice, thanks! I am finding that most christians seems to focus more on the NT and come up with all sorts of arguments why Mathew 5 allows them to remarry. On a personal note, did you ever consider just having a companion with no sex involved since you or I being divorced are not supposed to remarry? Would that be a sin?
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Post by kepha on Aug 30, 2016 8:52:22 GMT -8
Yeah, great advice, thanks! I am finding that most christians seems to focus more on the NT and come up with all sorts of arguments why Mathew 5 allows them to remarry. On a personal note, did you ever consider just having a companion with no sex involved since you or I being divorced are not supposed to remarry? Would that be a sin? For myself that option so far never came up, would I? Only if I know for sure me and the lady will only be companions that there will never be more attracting us to each other. Then again we have to be example to the world, and living with a woman might give the wrong impression to our brothers and sisters out there and be a stumbling block to them to think it is ok to live together with a partner. So yeah it is a tough one but in the end I do have many lady friends I can ask to accompany my if need be, but at the end of the day each one goes home to their own home. |
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Post by alon on Aug 30, 2016 8:53:45 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NASB) 1 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes [Lit hates her] because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, 2 and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.
Numbers 5:11-31(NASB)
The Adultery Test
11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, 15 the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as an offering for her one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity.
16 ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the Lord, 17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall then have the woman stand before the Lord and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse. 19 The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse; 20 if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you” 21 (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh [m]waste away and your abdomen swell; 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”
23 ‘The priest shall then write these curses on a scroll, and he shall wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 Then he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings a curse, so that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, and he shall wave the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness, and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and conceive children.
29 ‘This is the law of jealousy: when a wife, being under the authority of her husband, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife, he shall then make the woman stand before the Lord, and the priest shall apply all this law to her. 31 Moreover, the man will be free from guilt, but that woman shall bear her guilt.’”
Kepha, the test you referenced was for when a woman was suspected of adultery but it could not be proven. The passage mystic quoted was just a case of the husband didn’t like his new wife for some reason. Two different things entirely. So once again I say that mystic should seek out a competent Rabbi to help him with this problem. Otherwise this is the kind of confusion and improper application which can result. Basing major life’s decisions on bad advice can cause all manner of problems.
Dan C
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Post by kepha on Aug 30, 2016 8:58:09 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NASB) 1 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes [Lit hates her] because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, 2 and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.
Numbers 5:11-31(NASB)
The Adultery Test
11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, 15 the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as an offering for her one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity.
16 ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the Lord, 17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall then have the woman stand before the Lord and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse. 19 The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse; 20 if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you” 21 (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh [m]waste away and your abdomen swell; 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”
23 ‘The priest shall then write these curses on a scroll, and he shall wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 Then he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings a curse, so that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, and he shall wave the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness, and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and conceive children.
29 ‘This is the law of jealousy: when a wife, being under the authority of her husband, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife, he shall then make the woman stand before the Lord, and the priest shall apply all this law to her. 31 Moreover, the man will be free from guilt, but that woman shall bear her guilt.’”
Kepha, the test you referenced was for when a woman was suspected of adultery but it could not be proven. The passage mystic quoted was just a case of the husband didn’t like his new wife for some reason. Two different things entirely. So once again I say that mystic should seek out a competent Rabbi to help him with this problem. Otherwise this is the kind of confusion and improper application which can result. Basing major life’s decisions on bad advice can cause all manner of problems. Dan C Yes very true Allon I only used it to show there were reasons and means of dealing with things like this. At the end of it all is the fact that Yeshua forbid us to marry again, not true? |
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Post by mystic on Aug 30, 2016 10:19:25 GMT -8
So once again I say that mystic should seek out a competent Rabbi to help him with this problem. Dan C "Competent Rabbi" Dan, that is one problem, also finding one who is MJ is another. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 30, 2016 10:50:34 GMT -8
BTW guys, since Jesus said if you lust you would be comitting adultery so what's the difference if you get remarried?
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Post by kepha on Aug 30, 2016 11:12:37 GMT -8
There is a difference between sin (we all fall short of the ) and living in sin. Mystic I think this is the shortest answer I ever gave you so not to short change you aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa |
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Post by alon on Aug 30, 2016 11:26:31 GMT -8
Yes very true Allon I only used it to show there were reasons and means of dealing with things like this. At the end of it all is the fact that Yeshua forbid us to marry again, not true?
No, not necessarily true. We've been over that several times, and you just keep bringing it up like you made your point. You did not. So once again, Yeshua may have been addressing the problem of men sending their wives away without a writ of divorce. So the fact is this question requires someone knowledgeable in Jewish law, history, Talmud, the Bible, and above all at the very least in order to competently rule on it.
Dan C
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to suit ourselves.
C
. Kepha, In Deuteronomy 24:1-4, it says....
