Why would an Observant Jew need Yeshua?

[Questor]

Hello everyone!  This is not my question, of course, but that of a certain man who has been an advocate against Messianic Judaism in the past.

He, I believe, depends a great deal on the stream of Orthodox Judaism, but even I can see that the writers at Chabad.org, in their writings, sometimes sound an awful lot like Believers without ever actually saying Yeshua's name, which since Yeshua was speaking from a completely Jewish standpoint, is understandable. For that matter, so does much of the Talmud when discussing Maschiach. Perhaps this guy has finally noticed that.

He asks, "Why me, being a -Observant Jew, would need to believe in a man named Yeshua? Note that I am a practicing, born Jew. Being born Jewish means nothing, if not in conjunction with living -observant. Do not your own Christian scriptures state that the Jews "were entrusted with the whole revelation of G-D"? Romans 3:2


I truly do not know if he is still seeking for answers, or simply trolling here and there asking difficult questions that Christians never can answer (I stumbled over him again at a YouTube site, but I would like to give him a really good answer from a Judaic standpoint, not a Gentile one, so I ask your help.  


Q

[alon]

Well, here is some of what "our own Christian scriptures" have to say about why he needs to believe in Yeshua as HaMoshiach.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But more than this, he needs to understand that these are not Christian scriptures, but Jewish, alef to tav. Yeshua was a Jew, and so were His disciples. Rav Sha'ul was a Jewish extremist, before and after his conversion. And the entire TNK led up to, prophesied about and made the promise of a Messiah. That He came once to renew the covenant with Israel (NOT with so called "Christians") and to make a way for us to once again commune with HaShem should not surprise him. Neither should the fact He came as a human to do this. Did HaShem not appear to Abraham as a man? Is it so far-fetched that an all powerful G-d; One who could concentrate His presence on the Mercy seat in the Mishkan and the Temple, yet still fill the universe with His being; that this G-d could inhabit human form to bring redemption to His people? Not as a "Trinity," but just as an unfathomable Elohim- the Elohim of elohims.

And redemption IS for His people, the Jews. If we Gentiles want redemption then we must be grafted onto the cultivated olive tree that is Israel. Just as in the TNK, salvation is offered through the Jews, NOT through the Christian church.

The Jews are correct, HaMoshiach still has to come and complete His work. However at that time it will be too late for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who has not accepted Yeshua. And he is correct that observance is important. He is sadly mistaken though in thinking that will save him.

Look, I obey because it is pleasing to HaShem. Honestly, it is a pain in the butt for a Gentile (such as myself) to learn these things. Once learned, I generally enjoy them, or they just become part of my routine. N'tilat yadayim for example is now pretty much automatic, though I do remember why I do it each time (usually because it convicts me of some sin I've been doing- old habits die hard). But this is why we should do mitzvoth- to please HaShem and to remind us who it is we serve. If he is just doing it because he is Jewish, then even the Rabbis would say he is missing the mark. Just going through the motions won't save you. Neither will denying the One those mitzvoth are meant to serve!

Messiah is a very Jewish concept, not a Christian one. There have been many false messiahs throughout history, and none of these invoked the hatred towards them that Yeshua has received. I understand that much of this is due to persecution by people who coopted His name. But I'd urge him to get past that and to investigate Yeshua with an open mind. The Jesus of those who oppressed the Jews is NOT the Yeshua of the Bible.

And he is right in one other thing, though he doesn't explicitly state it. He does not need to "convert." He is already Jewish, as he does say. Accepting Yeshua wouldn't change that. It only changes the game for Gentiles- we Do have to convert. I am a proselyte to Messianic Judaism, observant by choice and Jewish by faith. I may still struggle with thinking Hebraically and even with learning and keeping mitzvoth. And I never tell anyone I am Jewish, just a proselyte trying to learn. But I no longer identify with being Gentile. I follow a very Jewish Messiah, written of IN HEBREW (not pagan Greek) by Jews who still worshiped in synagogues and practiced their faith as they always had before.

Why should your friend follow Yeshua? Because the TNK and those who were faithful before trusted G-d to send a Redeemer. They believed HaMoshiach would come. That trust is what saved them. "Avraham trusted G-d, and it was credited to him for righteousness." If in fact Yeshua is that Messiah, then only trust in Him will save us now. It is a question he needs to look into and decide for himself, not just take everyone else's word for.

Dan C

[jimmie]

Matt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

The whole should not prevent the sick from being healed, else they are not whole.

[Elizabeth]

Am I right in thinking that his logic would be faulty as even -Observant Jews by birth cannot keep all the commandments?  Also, just another thought, how does he think he receives atonement with no Temple? At first glance, and with my limited understanding, it seems like that would be good justification for the need for Yeshua.

[jimmie]

That is an excelent point. Daniel was without a temple also and made confession that "we have sinned, and committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgements... To the LORD our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him... Yea all Isrea have transgressed thy law... O LORD, hear; O LORD, forgive...

[Questor]

My thanks to all of you. I will copy the thread as a guide to what my answer will be, and I appreciate your time in helping me to express the ideas you have mentioned.

Q

[Questor]

Feb 24, 2015 11:54:41 GMT -8 Questor said:

If you would, take a look at this screed (yes, it's a lot!) and please tell me where I can make it better, or add to it, or speak more clearly. I have read and re-read this to death, and I need other eyes to look at this. I have been praying for the guy for a long time, and this may be my last chance to reach him.


Shomer asks, "Why me, being a -Observant Jew, would need to believe in a man named Yeshua? Note that I am a practicing, born Jew. Being born Jewish means nothing, if not in conjunction with living -observant. Do not your own Christian scriptures state that the Jews "were entrusted with the whole revelation of G-D"? Romans 3:2



1) Being Observant? Well, you are not fully Observant…no one is at present. Being a Jew, if you break the least law even once without doing the appropriate teshuvah and a ritual offering of a blood sacrifice for that transgression on the Temple Mount, you are cursed. It doesn’t matter what the Rabbi’s say…it matters only what the Scriptures say…including all those prophecies in the Tanakh you don’t seem to want to take seriously. The Brit Chadasha describes Yeshua’s advent, his actions, and his prophecies (which have come true, except those to be fulfilled in the future) and explains the outworking of grace in Mashiach ben Yosef, using the Old Testament Scriptures as their reference to do so. When Yeshua returns, it will be as King of Kings, Mashiach ben David in the full power of YHVH. Daniel 9:19-27; Daniel 11:29-45, Daniel 12:1-3.

2) The need for Yeshua? So, you are perfect, and not in need of forgiveness? No one is perfect in the keeping of , and everyone needs forgiveness. Still, anyone who trusts YHVH for mercy without also expecting justice to be applied is in serious ignorance. G-d must punish sin…that’s in the Mosaic Covenant, and the Noahide Covenant, respectively. You want to break the rules, even once, and be forgiven, in mercy and grace without Yeshua?

On what basis can you receive YHVH’s forgiveness? By your repentance and acts of charity…OR your teshuvah, acts of tsedakah, AND trusting in Yeshua’s perfect righteousness, and his redemption of all who trust in that redemption? We are given that perfect righteousness judicially through Yeshua acting as a Goal when we trust in Him as the Suffering Servant Mashiach, the adopted Son of God…a kinsman redeemer for you, and anyone else that is human who will take YHVH up on His offer of redemption through His sacrifice of Yeshua, His own adopted Son. Not to mention that as a Messianist and Yahwist, immersed, and infilled with a deposit of the Ruach haKodesh (a betrothal gift/down payment on your status in the coming Kingdom with a fully changed heart) the Ruach haKodesh will then lead you to be more Observant, but with peace, and without the nagging guilt of “Did I do it perfectly enough…Did I do enough??” Because you can’t…no one can keep without missing the mark somewhere, some when. It is why the blood offerings were given to YHVH in the days of the Temple, for man is a broken being, and incapable of complete righteousness. It is why Moses promised us a better covenant than the New Covenant. Deuteronomy 18; 18-19 and Deuteronomy 30:7 then witnessed to by Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Jeremiah 24:7, Jeremiah 31:33; and Ezekiel 11: 19-20.

Rabbi Levi Ben Gershon (RALBAG), of the fourteenth century, identified the Prophet as Messiah mentioned by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18-19: 'A Prophet from the midst of thee.' In fact, the Messiah is such a Prophet as it is stated in the Midrash of the verse, 'Behold my Servant shall prosper' (Isaiah 52:13).…Moses, by the miracles which he wrought, brought a single nation to the worship of God, but the Messiah will draw all peoples to the worship of God. The Midrashic passage that RALBAG cites, referring to Messiah as Prophet, states: It is written, Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, He shall be exalted, and extolled, and be very high (Isaiah 52:13). It means, He shall be more exalted than Abraham of whom it is written, 'I lift up my hand' (Genesis 14:22). He shall be more extolled than Moses of whom it is said, 'As a nursing father beareth the nursing child' (Numbers 11:12). 'And shall be very high'—that is, Messiah shall be higher than the ministering angels. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Try www.xrabbi.co.il/ for even more information.

3) As for the need for a mere man to help you…Yeshua wasn’t just a man. You really are talking about the Elect One, adopted Son of G-d, made uniquely, from old, as Mashiach ben Yosef, the suffering servant during the human life of Mashiach ben David, coming to rule and reign as King of Kings in the power of YHVH Tsevaot. He is much more than man now, and sits with YHVH in the Throne of G-d while all the necessary events of the End of Days are prepared. The Old Testament alludes to both (as does the Talmud), but you will need to actually ask G-d to open your eyes to the truth, rather than assume that any man can explain everything to your satisfaction…particularly when you don’t want to believe that the Rabbi’s, revered Sages as they are, might be wrong about some things. For a true understanding of the gestalt of the Old and New Testaments, you must go to YHVH, and ask Him for understanding.

4) As for the Whole revelation of G-d? Well, it’s all there in the Tanakh…you will need to read it with your eyes opened by YHVH. Just try reading Isaiah 49:1-13…It is YHVH speaking of Yeshua…then Isaiah 50: 4-6, 52:9-10, 52:13-15, where Abba continues to speak of Yeshua. And then, read all of Isaiah 53 through with Israel substituted for he/him, and then see whether Yeshua is the better fit, for when did Israel ever suffer exactly like that? Israel is not the subject again until Isaiah 54, and Israel’s righteousness is even emphasized in verse 54:17, yet Israel has no righteousness at present…no one does, except though Yeshua.

Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of G-d…but they promptly covered it up when it became to their benefit to do so. The Oral was a valued heritage for the Jews, but the moment they began writing it down they were adding to the , against the . Both the Jerusalem and Babylon Talmuds were written down in opposition to the law of …Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32 with the point of establishing Judaism apart from and in direct opposition to the still evolving forms of Messianic Judaism into Christianity; making sure that no Jew disobeyed the Rabbi’s even if it meant disobedience to .

These actions had a specific effect, which G-d allowed the Rabbinic authorities (empowered by and in collusion with Rome…R. Akiva didn’t make to Javne without Vespasian’s permission) to accomplish in their truly admirable purpose of preservation to write down the Oral Law…to wrap Judaism up so tightly in fences upon fences that it would survive separately from any other group, despite persecution, except that R. Akiva, and all the Sages since disobeyed to do so, and over the years, the Rabbis have taught Talmud as being more important, relevant and accurate than . It is a fact that the Rabbis have been controlling Judaic thought ever since AD 70, and is somewhat evident from most Religious Jews’ refusal to look beyond what their Rabbis have said. It keeps obedient Rabbinic Jews safe in the illusion that the Talmud and Tradition is better than the , and that G-d Himself is pleased with them for their traditions.

Rabbinical Judaism is made of Rabbinical decisions, dismissing the when it doesn’t fit with their desires to do things in opposition to , but it keeps their traditions intact, and the Rabbi’s in control, unthreatened by any argument not made from the Talmud. Still, Abba always uses everything for His own purpose. In every generation there were Jews who believed in Yeshua apart from any persecuting church or synagogue, and as we come to the grand finale and the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Word is spreading even into Israel, amongst the Israeli Jews by Messianic Israeli Jews, where it is most needed, and slowly spreading through the remainder of the Jews in the Diaspora.


5) Living as Observant without a Temple is not being Observant…just a good attempt at obedience, while keeping the cultural traditions you were raised in. That unfortunately makes you somewhat light on observance, although you are much more observant than I, since I am not an Orthodox Jew. I rely on Yeshua for all my inadequacies in obedience, and keep working on my obedience to as an act of worship of YHVH with the help of the Ruach haKodesh. Being a Gentile, I never promised to do all that you promised to do as a Jew at your Bar Mitzvah. I just said I would love YHVH, and love YHVH in Yeshua with all my ability when I accepted Yeshua as Mashiach…as Lord and King, not as G-d.

Then, when I understood more, I asked YHVH, in the name and righteousness of Yeshua, G-d’s adopted Son, to change me to what He wanted me to be by placing His Holy Spirit within me…and He did, and still does. You too can have a viable, continual connection to G-d through the Ruach haKodesh, if you would only lay aside your assumption that you can keep in your own strength without fault. It doesn’t make you less a Jew to believe that Yeshua is Mashiach, and that Yeshua will come again…you never convert from Judaism…you merely add the obedience and reverence you would owe your anointed King in the Messianic Kingdom, and rely on Yeshua’s righteousness for your redemption from the curse of sin, which is eternal death. Taking Yeshua as Savior, and Kinsman redeemer was originally done by thousands of Jews in the 1st Century, and carried on into the 5th, and 6th century despite the influx of Greco-Roman thought into what began as a thoroughly Jewish Sect, every one of them zealous for the . They were so much into Obedience that it turned the Greco-Roman Gentiles away from Messianic Judaism, and into what we now have as Christianity across much of the world. And the Christians? Their only fault is that they have been taught that the was nailed to the Cross, when it is an idiom for Yeshua (the Word, the ) being nailed to the Cross, and consequently, they have rejected formal obedience. Those Christians under the guidance of the Ruach haKodesh follow a good deal of obedience to G-d as described in the Brit Chadasha, and the Christians that do not do so are not Believers at all.


6) Being born under the Mosaic Covenant as a Jew matters a lot, if you are not fully obedient to . Jews were the ones who made a blood covenant with G-d to keep it, and then repeatedly broke it. You stand without forgiveness through lack of an animal sacrifice because your sins as a Jewish Nation have gotten your Temple destroyed twice, yet you will not take the one perfect, unending, all-encompassing sacrifice given by G-d for our sins.

You will say human sacrifice is an abomination. The says that a blood sacrifice is needed to atone for someone’s sin. An animal can only atone for sin temporarily. The only way human sin could be canceled permanently, and in an on-going manner would be through G-d giving an acceptable permanent sacrifice for us, and then gain Yeshua’s righteousness only by our faith in that action as well as our obedience. G-d gave us Yeshua, and placed the remembrance Feast of the Passover into the Covenant as a type and shadow of what would be done later.

The Passover in Egypt prevented the death of those inside the houses of anyone who used the appropriately sacrificed lambs’ blood to anoint the lintel and sides of their doors. Yeshua’s sacrifice prevents Eternal Death of the human soul by removing the cause for Eternal death of anyone who trusts in Yeshua’s sacrificial death, and resurrection. The idea of a Kinsman Redeemer was woven into the design of Jewish culture, and made a part of Levitical law by G-d just so Yeshua could act as Kinsman Redeemer for all humans.  

Job mentions the lack of an Ombudsman to speak on his behalf to G-d…an intermediary that is appointed as a negotiator between one person and another, or one group and another…Yeshua is that Ombudsman between G-d and man, but He is also more. Yeshua was with G-d when the Universe was created…G-d in the Scriptures describes that use of a part of God’s creative Self as the vehicle for His power to flow through because it is an image we can understand. 
G-d spoke at the creation through and in Yeshua, and is variously described as the Word, as the Living , even as G-d’s strength is spoken of as His arm, or His right hand, and the Tanakh links an anthropological idea of G-d’s arm and right hand with the Messianic Branch to come, since G-d doesn’t have a body that we can even envision.

"It was taught that seven things were created before the world was created; they are the , repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gey-Hinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah.... The name of the Messiah, as it is written: 'May his name [as understood here, the name of the Messiah] endure forever, may his name produce issue prior to the sun' (Psalm 72:17)." (Pesachim 54a, Nʾdarim 39a; also Midrash on Psalm 93:3)

Yeshua was not just human, but the created Representative of G-d…the Mirror Image of G-d’s character and mindset. He was designed and created for a specific purpose and task that Yeshua obviously agreed to, and that G-d promised Yeshua a special place and reward for completing, but Yeshua himself was quite plain about the fact that He wasn’t the Creator, but the Son. Yeshua was given a human body unlike any other human…the product of only an ovum, so as not to have just any human body, but to have a human body without a nascent human soul already within it at conception, of a mother with both Davidic and Cohanic bloodlines, adopted by a father of David’s line through Solomon.

However, Yeshua was from old, from a time prior to man’s existence. Micah 5:2. Yeshua was, however, quite plain about the fact that He stood in G-d’s place, with full power of attorney, just as any Son, sent to a foreign country on a diplomatic mission, could make agreements, and establish covenants and treaties on behalf of His Father.  It doesn’t matter that Yeshua was G-d’s son by adoption…He was appointed to stand in G-d’s place, and given access to G-d’s power through the complete infilling of the Ruach haKodesh. In His death, Yeshua submitted to G-d’s will for Him…that Yeshua was to submit to a horrible death in order to attain G-d’s purpose. Yeshua had a choice, and He could have refused…and Yeshua chose not to.

Consequently, I say that Yeshua, although human in Body, was entered into by a Soul, an Elect One specially made by G-d for G-d’s purpose and then tabernacled in a human body in G-d’s power for a special purpose, even adopted by G-d as His Son…to experience our humanity as a human, yet walk in perfect righteousness, and then offer Himself as a ransom for us, having been given by G-d the right as a sinless human to take our curse of death that we deserve for our sinfulness.  

Yeshua died in our place to leave us free from the curse from our sins, and by taking our curse, gave us His righteousness. That is G-d in action…It is G-d giving a supernaturally created Agent to act for Him, that we might have Mashiach’s righteousness as a gift in exchange for faith in the giving of G-d’s gift…just as Abraham was accounted righteous because of his faith in YHVH.

7) You will say, I keep , I have faith, and G-d will have mercy on me. But where exactly is that stated in the Mosaic Covenant?

In the Midrash Tanchuma, Toledot 14 it is written, “More than all other tzaddikim who were before him Mashiach will strive to elevate everything from disgrace to honor, thus to fulfill the teaching of the Sages, “Do not disparage anyone…” (Avos.4:3); do not belittle anyone in the world. Rather Mashiach will be involved with everyone (all classes), in order to rectify the individual and elevate him from all forms of disgrace and ' and bring them to honor that derives from holiness. As it is written, ‘He will take pity on the poor and destitute…and their blood is dear in His eyes” (Ps.72:13,14). No other historical person from among the Jewish annals has had such a positive impact among the Nations. Yeshua stands as a banner to the Nations (Isa.11:10), many throughout the last two-thousand years have observed him, learned from his deeds and walked in his ways. lawofmessiah.wordpress.com/2014/09/


In summary, you need Yeshua because you are a sinner, like everyone else, and only in Yeshua’s righteousness can you be saved.


Q

[Elizabeth]

I will print this out and read over it. I am better with old fashioned paper. It is probably better if other people suggest any alterations as I am new to Messianic Judaism anyway.

One thing that always strikes me about Isaiah 53 is that perhaps it is referring to both Israel and Yeshua. Maybe that is the wisdom of G-d that His people can so identify with Yeshua, and Yeshua with them, that they will one day understand that they are indeed inseparable.

I will read over it, and be praying for you and your friend.

[tonga]

I am not going to involve myself in this, as I am not a counter-missionary nor do I want to appear as one.
However, you might want to rethink this post.

As an Orthodox Jew, I find it factually wrong and offensive. Just a few points...and that is all I will say

It is written from a Christian view point, not a Jewish one. Which is not a surprise seeing that people on the forum here come from
a Christian background and carry those beliefs into their Messianic journey.

Blood sacrifice or the killing of animals is not required for atonement. No where does it say we must keep "perfectly". G-d Himself
tells us it is not beyond us. The rabbis did not make rulings to "control" us. The Jewish concept of the messiah is totally different from
the Christian/Messianic one. So is the concept of salvation. You ask when has Israel ever suffered "like that"? I would say, when hasn't it? Comparing Pesach to the death
of Jesus is comparing apples and oranges. The overall tone is condescending and condemning. Jews don't respond well to that. I could go on and on but I won't

I would rethink your whole reply and think from a Jewish perspective.
You might even want to run it by a Jewish forum. No, I am not kidding Explain the whole exchange you are having and see how they respond.
Consider it a warm up before you continue your conversation with the gentleman in Youtube.

[alon]

Feb 26, 2015 8:12:46 GMT -8 tonga said:

I am not going to involve myself in this, as I am not a counter-missionary nor do I want to appear as one.
However, you might want to rethink this post.

As an Orthodox Jew, I find it factually wrong and offensive. Just a few points...and that is all I will say

It is written from a Christian view point, not a Jewish one. Which is not a surprise seeing that people on the forum here come from
a Christian background and carry those beliefs into their Messianic journey.

Blood sacrifice or the killing of animals is not required for atonement. No where does it say we must keep "perfectly". G-d Himself
tells us it is not beyond us. The rabbis did not make rulings to "control" us. The Jewish concept of the messiah is totally different from
the Christian/Messianic one. So is the concept of salvation. You ask when has Israel ever suffered "like that"? I would say, when hasn't it? Comparing Pesach to the death
of Jesus is comparing apples and oranges. The overall tone is condescending and condemning. Jews don't respond well to that. I could go on and on but I won't

I would rethink your whole reply and think from a Jewish perspective.
You might even want to run it by a Jewish forum. No, I am not kidding Explain the whole exchange you are having and see how they respond.
Consider it a warm up before you continue your conversation with the gentleman in Youtube.

tonga, that is a well thought out and much appreciated response.

I don't remember the verse, but when I studied Leviticus I recall seeing that the only way to be forgiven for an intentional sin was to fall on your face, repent and beg forgiveness of HaShem. Same as it is today. You are correct that Christians, and we as Messianic believers coming out of Christianity have an unrealistic view of the sacrificial system. We don't get any Jewish Messianic believers here to correct us because they have no need of a forum such as this, so we do tend to keep that skewed view of the sacrificial system as well. I did study Leviticus, and to be honest I'm more confused about it now than when I started- probably because now I know enough to know I was wrong before!

Questors rethinking the reply from a Jewish perspective is going to be difficult, but is good advice. I'd suggest letting his Jewish friend talk then answering questions. One, as I always say, we are the ones who need to change. We need to learn to think more Hebraically, even in our own walk. And two this is not a debate he's engaged in. Belief in Messiah, or in Yeshua as Messiah is a personal thing, and only that person and God can decide that belief. "Winning" an argument will never have the desired effect, especially when both sides usually come out of an argument thinking they've won and the other guy is an obstinate idiot. I know this to be true because I've won many an argument with obstinate idiots myself.

Talking to a Jewish forum might not be a bad idea if they'll talk to him about this. But I don't think I'd run that reply by them. Maybe just ask them how they view salvation, sacrifices, etc. And of course be respectful of their forum as we expect people to respect ours here. Going there as a missionary would probably get him martyred; and presenting that argument might get him crucified.

Dan C

[alon]

Questor, as I read through your reply to your friend I see it as very confrontational. Understanding these things yourself is fine, but my suggestion is to let him talk and then answer with specific points. Throwing all this at him as written will not convince, but more likely turn him away. And show him, don't argue the point(s).

Another suggestion is to go through the Messianic prophecies with him and explain where Yeshua fulfilled those prophecies; keeping in mind of course that some are yet to be fulfilled. Chosen People Ministries has a book called "Isaiah 53 Explained" which they used to send to any Jewish person free. Ask before you send for it to be mailed to him, but if he'll read it that is a good way to witness.

Attacking the Rabbis and their beliefs about Talmud is argumentative, plus really we don't fully understand what they believe about these things. Different sects probably hold different views, but all of them would probably view such an attack as another Crusade against Judaism.

He may not want to hear any of this. If this is the case, don't tell him. It is not your responsibility to tell anyone who doesn't want to hear it, and browbeating him now may just harm your or someone else's chances to talk to him later.

I am an argumentative person by nature, and it is difficult for me to just shut up and listen to the other person then answer their questions even when witnessing to a Gentile. I do this with Christians as well- I only tell them what they want to hear about MJ; except for the preacher's. They get an ear full because it is their responsibility to give their congregations the truth. Just be ready for the back-blast though when taking this approach, which is likely what you'll get if you give that paper to your friend.

Just talk with him. Answer his questions. If you don't know, say you'll find out and get back to him. But don't argue. You are not in this to win- he is the only one that can win or loose in this discussion, and the real discussion is between him and God. Your job is more to get out of the way and let God persuade him. Use the scriptures and don't try to argue the Talmud. God's Word convicts, and you don't know enough Talmud to do more than get in over your head real quick. The TNK is your common ground, and the B'rith Chadasha is where the prophecies in the TNK are fulfilled. Present it as such, and as a Jewish document, not as a new religion but as a renewing of the same religion.

Going into this discussion with a preplanned argument may work well in your mind. But just remember the old boxers adage, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." You're there to persuade, not to fight. Let him lead and answer his questions instead of giving your arguments to things that may not have even been an issue until you challenged him.

And hide that paper so he never sees it!

Dan C

[jimmie]

tonga,

I don’t know if you are familiar with Acts 15. It was an early dispute between Jewish and Gentile believers or Christians if you will. Today’s Christians teach form this that the Jewish people involved were false teachers or “Judaizes”. While the text plainly states that they were Jewish believers. Well the crises’ was resolved by everyone being allowed to state their reasons for their beliefs then jointly coming to a resolution. You would think with this great example of resolving differences there wouldn’t be any lasting divisions. However the very next story is about a division between Paul and Barnabas. I say all that to just point out the need for dialog. You have raised a few concerns from your position, but without documentation, I don’t have a bases to evaluate them from. Let’s look at just one of your statements: “No where does it say we must keep "perfectly"”. Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. [Deuterronomy 27:26] Isn’t this an injunction to keep the laws perfectly or not to disregard a law of God? How do you arrive at the conclusion that the law doesn’t have to be keep perfectly?

[Elizabeth]

Questor, maybe you are also putting too much pressure on yourself. You mentioned it may be the last chance. That may be why your words are so strong, but G-d knows what he's doing.  You are having a conversation and care about this man. Maybe that's all that is needed now.

Please share with us what you learn. I am grateful to learn more as well!

[alon]

Acts 15, one of the most misrepresented chapters in the B'rith Chadasha. Let's start with the word "church."

Acts 15:3(NASB) Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

Every time the word church is used in Acts 15 the word is:

G1577 ἐκκλησία ekklēsia ek-klay-see'-ah From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

Since there were no Christian churches at the time all this happened, and since these were Jews, I'd say this should have been translated as synagogue, not as church. This would set the tone of the discussion much better from the outset.

Notice that these people who were some of the sect of the Pharisees (not even leaders of this sect) went to a bunch of new Gentile converts and tried to spread this doctrine. They didn't go where there were a bunch of Jewish converts who would, and here DID come against this doctrine! Salvation is the free gift of God, and the Jews knew this! These new converts were given a minimal list to start with;

Acts 15:20 (NASB) but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

And immediately James says:

Acts 15:21 (NASB) For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

This is a statement that they will learn the rest IN SYNAGOGUE every Shabbat where "Moses," meaning is read to them, and where the Rabbis can instruct them.

In vss. 15-18 James also talks about the time the Temple will be rebuilt, and Gentile believers will also seek the Lord there. So there is no compromise. The only thing they relented on was that new Gentile believers could take their time to learn and not have everything thrust on them at once- which would be an impossibility anyhow. And if we are going to have to seek the Lord in the Temple when it is rebuilt, maybe I should revisit Leviticus and try to clear up my thinking on the sacrifices!

There is another key verse here:

Acts 15:10 (NASB) Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

I take two things from this. One is that as Jews they would have learned observance growing up. They learned to keep the mitzvoth one at a time. They had the example of their parents and community. But they didn't have to bear the yoke of learning it all at once. "Here, you're 13 now; read this scroll and do what all it says." That'd work ... you bet!

The other and most important thing though is that they knew it was impossible to keep all the commandments all of the time. But God always made a way for sinful man to be reconciled to Himself. That is what Leviticus is about. The entire TNK, and finally the B'rit Chadashah is a history of God doing just that every time the nation fell away.

This brings up another point, which both the Christian Church and the Jewish faith has sort of dropped the ball on, though I won't speak for all Jews here. But as I understand it, the Jewish people believe more in a national salvation, and therefore your sin would have a direct detrimental effect on everyone's salvation. I don't get that they stress the consequences to an individual of his sin. tonga, feel free to correct me if I am wrong in that.

I will speak for Christianity though; and there is too often little, and in most churches NO concept of how sin effects the community or the nation. We tend to concentrate on individual sin and how it effects the individual. But sin effects everyone around us. It separates us from God. Its attitudes are taught to or picked up by others. Often others are obviously directly harmed. And when sinful attitudes pervade a nation, we elect sinful leaders, with devastating results.

In the time of the Temple, accumulated sin would mean the departure of God's presence from the Temple and thus His separation from the nation. That, if I recall correctly, was the primary reason for sacrifices was to cleanse the Temple. And not every sacrifice had to do with sin either. Leviticus should be up in the par'sha readings soon, and I hope to learn even more this time around, because I do equate Yeshua's sacrifice to the entire TNK. I don't think I can understand what He did for me, let alone tell anyone else (especially a Jew that knows more than I do about the sacrifices) until I get a handle on the sacrificial system as laid out by God, through Moses. So, Leviticus revisited.

Dan C

[tonga]

You have raised a few concerns from your position, but without documentation, I don’t have a bases to evaluate them from.

That was done intentionally. I did not want to turn this thread-or my posts-into a counter-missionary session.

However, if you really want to know, I will be glad to post the reasoning when I get back home.

I hate typing on cell phones, lol.

Oh, and no, I am not familiar with Acts 15.