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Post by jimmie on Feb 27, 2015 5:52:26 GMT -8
tonga,
That would be great. But please lets discuss just one point at a time. I have a single track mind. Thanks.
Jimmie
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Post by Questor on Feb 27, 2015 15:00:42 GMT -8
I will print this out and read over it. I am better with old fashioned paper. It is probably better if other people suggest any alterations as I am new to Messianic Judaism anyway. One thing that always strikes me about Isaiah 53 is that perhaps it is referring to both Israel and Yeshua. Maybe that is the wisdom of G-d that His people can so identify with Yeshua, and Yeshua with them, that they will one day understand that they are indeed inseparable. I will read over it, and be praying for you and your friend.
Q
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Post by Questor on Feb 27, 2015 15:03:44 GMT -8
I am not going to involve myself in this, as I am not a counter-missionary nor do I want to appear as one. However, you might want to rethink this post. As an Orthodox Jew, I find it factually wrong and offensive. Just a few points...and that is all I will say  It is written from a Christian view point, not a Jewish one. Which is not a surprise seeing that people on the forum here come from a Christian background and carry those beliefs into their Messianic journey. Blood sacrifice or the killing of animals is not required for atonement. No where does it say we must keep  "perfectly". G-d Himself tells us it is not beyond us. The rabbis did not make rulings to "control" us. The Jewish concept of the messiah is totally different from the Christian/Messianic one. So is the concept of salvation. You ask when has Israel ever suffered "like that"? I would say, when hasn't it? Comparing Pesach to the death of Jesus is comparing apples and oranges. The overall tone is condescending and condemning. Jews don't respond well to that. I could go on and on but I won't I would rethink your whole reply and think from a Jewish perspective. You might even want to run it by a Jewish forum. No, I am not kidding Explain the whole exchange you are having and see how they respond. Consider it a warm up before you continue your conversation with the gentleman in Youtube.
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Post by Questor on Feb 27, 2015 15:28:36 GMT -8
Questor, as I read through your reply to your friend I see it as very confrontational. Understanding these things yourself is fine, but my suggestion is to let him talk and then answer with specific points. Throwing all this at him as written will not convince, but more likely turn him away. And show him, don't argue the point(s).
Another suggestion is to go through the Messianic prophecies with him and explain where Yeshua fulfilled those prophecies; keeping in mind of course that some are yet to be fulfilled. Chosen People Ministries has a book called "Isaiah 53 Explained" which they used to send to any Jewish person free. Ask before you send for it to be mailed to him, but if he'll read it that is a good way to witness.
Attacking the Rabbis and their beliefs about Talmud is argumentative, plus really we don't fully understand what they believe about these things. Different sects probably hold different views, but all of them would probably view such an attack as another Crusade against Judaism.
He may not want to hear any of this. If this is the case, don't tell him. It is not your responsibility to tell anyone who doesn't want to hear it, and browbeating him now may just harm your or someone else's chances to talk to him later.
I am an argumentative person by nature, and it is difficult for me to just shut up and listen to the other person then answer their questions even when witnessing to a Gentile. I do this with Christians as well- I only tell them what they want to hear about MJ; except for the preacher's. They get an ear full because it is their responsibility to give their congregations the truth. Just be ready for the back-blast though when taking this approach, which is likely what you'll get if you give that paper to your friend.
Just talk with him. Answer his questions. If you don't know, say you'll find out and get back to him. But don't argue. You are not in this to win- he is the only one that can win or loose in this discussion, and the real discussion is between him and God. Your job is more to get out of the way and let God persuade him. Use the scriptures and don't try to argue the Talmud. God's Word convicts, and you don't know enough Talmud to do more than get in over your head real quick. The TNK is your common ground, and the B'rith Chadasha is where the prophecies in the TNK are fulfilled. Present it as such, and as a Jewish document, not as a new religion but as a renewing of the same religion.
Going into this discussion with a preplanned argument may work well in your mind. But just remember the old boxers adage, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." You're there to persuade, not to fight. Let him lead and answer his questions instead of giving your arguments to things that may not have even been an issue until you challenged him.
And hide that paper so he never sees it! 
Dan C
I'd really rather you shredded my answer, and brought to it a type of phrasing that answers the points in my friends questions without offending him...it is why I brought the whole problem here. Break up the entire response I made line by line and tell me what is wrong from a Jewish point of view, and to keep it or omit it. I may not agree, but at least I would know what NOT to say, and in a way, this could be a joint answer to him.
My friend does not listen well, preferring to debate around the answers to the questions he asks...Yeshiva style, so I have to do my speaking to him in the written word. The question was made to the entire world, out in the open, and no one has answered him for weeks, so many will see this answer. I have listened to him for hours on end in the past, and a lot of what is in my writing above is perhaps to answer a lot of objectionss he has made in the past.
You all know that I write too prolifically, and often too passionately. It really is why I am asking for help...I don't want to offend, and I want to answer the questions. I want to be succinct and definite, and I don't know how to do that either.
I have no access to Messianic Jews or Rabbinical Jews that can tell me where I am wrong, so I came here hoping to be told what is wrong in what I wrote. I hesitate to bother R. Reuel, but perhaps he is the only one who can answer the questions my friend has asked from the right Messianic Jewish mindset, or your Rabbi, Dan.
There is no hurry in my getting this done, but there is need to do it accurately, and kindly, and I need help from you all to do both. So please, take apart my writings line by line, and tell me what would be a better response..a more Judaic response, and not necessarily an Christian response, since I grow further and further apart from all the distortions in belief and praxis away from Judaism, and into Greco-Roman philosophical thought that occurred after AD 70.
Please help me to give a good answer to his questions.
Q
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Post by alon on Feb 27, 2015 18:09:50 GMT -8
Well, I'm glad you are in no hurry, because there is a lot there. Right now it is growing dark, which means I'm well in my half hour fence on Shabbat, and I'm behind in my studies. But I'll see what I can answer when I get time.
You nor I will ever be great evangelists! We both are too passionate, and just a little (ok, a lot) argumentative. But it is commendable when we try. So I'll see what I can do there.
Dan CShabbat shalom!
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Post by Questor on Feb 27, 2015 20:49:25 GMT -8
Well, I'm glad you are in no hurry, because there is a lot there. Right now it is growing dark, which means I'm well in my half hour fence on Shabbat, and I'm behind in my studies. But I'll see what I can answer when I get time.
You nor I will ever be great evangelists! We both are too passionate, and just a little (ok, a lot) argumentative. But it is commendable when we try. So I'll see what I can do there.
Dan CShabbat shalom!
Argumentative??? Us? NO Wayyyyyy!
We are sweet and nice to everyone...and I will YELL AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS AT ANYONE who disputes that fact! 
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Post by Questor on Feb 28, 2015 18:45:24 GMT -8
Well, I'm glad you are in no hurry, because there is a lot there. Right now it is growing dark, which means I'm well in my half hour fence on Shabbat, and I'm behind in my studies. But I'll see what I can answer when I get time.
You nor I will ever be great evangelists! We both are too passionate, and just a little (ok, a lot) argumentative. But it is commendable when we try. So I'll see what I can do there.
Dan CShabbat shalom!
Argumentative??? Us? NO Wayyyyyy!
We are sweet and nice to everyone...and I will YELL AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS AT ANYONE who disputes that fact!
Q
Okay, I turned off my emotions, and got a lot of sleep. How is this?
Sin and death came to all men because of one man’s sin; even so righteousness and life eternal are given to anyone who will trust G-d’s judicial action based on one man’s righteousness. You are a Jewish sinner, as am I am a Gentile sinner, yet our actions of Observance are not sufficient to keep us from receiving the ultimate curse of the Mosaic Covenant, because we cannot keep in full righteousness, without fault.
Yet, if we will choose to believe, and trust in Yeshua’s assigned purpose as Kinsman Redeemer in trading his righteous life for our sinful ones, we are assigned Yeshua’s righteousness judicially. By deliberately giving his life as a ransom for us, though he had never sinned, Yeshua redeems us from our deserved curse…everlasting death. And in conjunction with our declared trust in Yeshua’s righteousness, we are given spiritual rebirth, and the gift of indwelling of the Ruach haKodesh to help us grow, and be ever more obedient to until the New Covenant is written upon the hearts of all of us when Yeshua returns as Messiah to rule and reign in the Messianic Age.
If nothing else, it's a lot less to criticize!
Q
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Feb 28, 2015 21:23:37 GMT -8
Well, I will be very general....if at all. As I stated, I don't want to act as a counter-missionary. But also, I don't want to see you try to convert this gentleman. So this puts me in a precarious position in this forum. Which I am sure you can understand |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Feb 28, 2015 21:27:33 GMT -8
I am assuming you are speaking of "original sin" via Adam. Judaism has no concept of original sin, nor "salvation" based on one man. Even our concepts of salvation and righteousness are different. We do not believe that one has to keep faultlessly. I don't see your conversation with this gentleman going anywhere because you are approaching it from the Christian viewpoint and he is approaching it from a Jewish one. Neither one of you is going to sway the other because there is no common ground when you come down to the basics. Why spin your wheels? |
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Post by alon on Feb 28, 2015 21:32:16 GMT -8
Wow, that was some effort to pare down your arguments! I almost hate to "criticize," but there are a few points: Sin and death came to all men because of one man’s sin; even so righteousness and life eternal are given to anyone who will trust G-d’s judicial action based on one man’s righteousness.
Another thing is your equating your own observance with his. First off, I know from talking with you before that you don't take on the full mantle of observance, ESPECIALLY AS JEWS SEE IT! My guess is he thinks you are sinning for even trying, as in the eyes of most of Judaism we should limit ourselves to the Noahide Laws and leave observance to the Jews. Honestly, if I thought I was called to be a witness to the Jews, I'd pray long and hard about renouncing MJ and becoming a Noahide. They love Noahides, but they most decidedly do not (in my limited experience) love us.And this is of course the essential message you are trying to reach him with. My advice here is to rely heavily on scripture and let God's Spirit speak to him. Give him the scripture, then shut up and allow him to think about it and answer. Then answer with more scripture. Don't argue. At some point he will make up his own mind, and then if it is no, just leave it alone. Don't argue. Just leave it that you are there for him any time.
If yes you obviously pray with him and make sure he is mentored where he needs to be. As for you, congratulations, you may now find yourself being mentored as well into becoming a full Messianic Jew! And may I (somewhat optimistically) say "Welcome to the fold!" 
Dan C
edit: and I see Tonga replied while I was typing this. At least it looks like my advice wasn't too far off the mark, though I'm shooting in dim light here.
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Post by Questor on Feb 28, 2015 23:01:27 GMT -8
I am assuming you are speaking of "original sin" via Adam. Judaism has no concept of original sin, nor "salvation" based on one man. Even our concepts of salvation and righteousness are different. We do not believe that one has to keep faultlessly. I don't see your conversation with this gentleman going anywhere because you are approaching it from the Christian viewpoint and he is approaching it from a Jewish one. Neither one of you is going to sway the other because there is no common ground when you come down to the basics. Why spin your wheels?
I do not believe in original sin, just original brokenness.
As for salvation, and righteousness, or not keeping faultlessly to be righteous, you are correct...I don't have sufficient information to understand where you are coming from, and no, I don't want to spin my wheels at all except that Abba laid on me a command to "Write!", and the Ruach bumps and nudges me to write certain things...even if it is merely to get me to a new learning point.
Can you point me to what to read on these matters?
And thank you for writing, Tonga...I do appreciate it.
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Post by Questor on Feb 28, 2015 23:40:02 GMT -8
Wow, that was some effort to pare down your arguments! I almost hate to "criticize," but there are a few points: Sin and death came to all men because of one man’s sin; even so righteousness and life eternal are given to anyone who will trust G-d’s judicial action based on one man’s righteousness.
Another thing is your equating your own observance with his. First off, I know from talking with you before that you don't take on the full mantle of observance, ESPECIALLY AS JEWS SEE IT! My guess is he thinks you are sinning for even trying, as in the eyes of most of Judaism we should limit ourselves to the Noahide Laws and leave observance to the Jews. Honestly, if I thought I was called to be a witness to the Jews, I'd pray long and hard about renouncing MJ and becoming a Noahide. They love Noahides, but they most decidedly do not (in my limited experience) love us.And this is of course the essential message you are trying to reach him with. My advice here is to rely heavily on scripture and let God's Spirit speak to him. Give him the scripture, then shut up and allow him to think about it and answer. Then answer with more scripture. Don't argue. At some point he will make up his own mind, and then if it is no, just leave it alone. Don't argue. Just leave it that you are there for him any time.
If yes you obviously pray with him and make sure he is mentored where he needs to be. As for you, congratulations, you may now find yourself being mentored as well into becoming a full Messianic Jew! And may I (somewhat optimistically) say "Welcome to the fold!"
Dan C
edit: and I see Tonga replied while I was typing this. At least it looks like my advice wasn't too far off the mark, though I'm shooting in dim light here.
Were I to convert to Judaism, I still would not ever be up to any observant Jew's understanding or compliance...that is cultural/family/tribal, and it is the same with MJ...although I still have no one to mentor me there, either.
I merely study everything I can get my hands on, and I am now taking both Biblical and Modern Hebrew courses over the internet...expensive, but very much worth it, but boy, there sure is a lot of homework and translation! And having learned calligraphy for textual Hebrew, I am now having to learn cursive for modern Hebrew, and guessing at all words without nikkud half the time. Of course, between the two, I should get quite an education...just 3 more years to get a reasonable level of competence, I daresay. Each of the five level classes for Biblical and Modern is 30 weeks, and are continually running, so one ends one, and then begins another, until one presumably finds a Hebrew conversation pit, live on Skype! Or hire's an Israel College Student to chat with!
Only when I can speak and read Hebrew, and be conversant with the Bible in Hebrew am I willing to take on a synagogue...I'd be lost without that much background, and I don't much fancy the Christian-run MJ assemblies anyway. MJAA and FFOZ are lightweight in many ways, like they are still teaching children, which perhaps they are. I know they are 2 House proponents, but unless you are converting, that's pretty much all there is on the net, and I'd rather be alone than badly taught by people who know no more than I do. They put out some good Parsha materials that go into a lot of detail that is helpful though, in terms of background...and there is tons of that too to read.
I do hope Tonga can point me to something to explain what she see's me as lacking in understanding. Of course, I might understand it, and just say it weirdly due to too much Xtian influence.
For me, the difficulty is in finding books that explain Jewish thought to Gentiles, except what is on Aish and Chabad, of course.
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Post by Questor on Mar 1, 2015 12:44:45 GMT -8
Wow, that was some effort to pare down your arguments! I almost hate to "criticize," but there are a few points: Sin and death came to all men because of one man’s sin; even so righteousness and life eternal are given to anyone who will trust G-d’s judicial action based on one man’s righteousness.
Another thing is your equating your own observance with his. First off, I know from talking with you before that you don't take on the full mantle of observance, ESPECIALLY AS JEWS SEE IT! My guess is he thinks you are sinning for even trying, as in the eyes of most of Judaism we should limit ourselves to the Noahide Laws and leave observance to the Jews. Honestly, if I thought I was called to be a witness to the Jews, I'd pray long and hard about renouncing MJ and becoming a Noahide. They love Noahides, but they most decidedly do not (in my limited experience) love us.And this is of course the essential message you are trying to reach him with. My advice here is to rely heavily on scripture and let God's Spirit speak to him. Give him the scripture, then shut up and allow him to think about it and answer. Then answer with more scripture. Don't argue. At some point he will make up his own mind, and then if it is no, just leave it alone. Don't argue. Just leave it that you are there for him any time.
If yes you obviously pray with him and make sure he is mentored where he needs to be. As for you, congratulations, you may now find yourself being mentored as well into becoming a full Messianic Jew! And may I (somewhat optimistically) say "Welcome to the fold!"
Dan C
edit: and I see Tonga replied while I was typing this. At least it looks like my advice wasn't too far off the mark, though I'm shooting in dim light here.
YHVH sent Yeshua as His special agent, His Messiah, endowed with a spirit and soul of old, of ages past before the worlds were formed into a specially prepared body to demonstrate how to live a sinless life, by keeping all of that applied to him, by his faith that G-d had assigned him this task, even as Yeshua suffered an undeserved death on our account, and for our benefit. G-d offers through Yeshua the beginning of the New Covenant, that the would be written on our hearts, and into our being by the Ruach haKodesh. In our faith that the New Covenant has been instituted in those that believe in Yeshua's death as an act of redemption, by the consequent indwelling of the Ruach haKodesh,we begin to be slowly transformed. We cannot receive that indwelling without also receiving the judicial righteousness that we gain in Yeshua’s death as our Gaol.
So, if we will choose to believe, and trust in Yeshua’s assigned purpose as Kinsman Redeemer in trading his righteous life for our sinful ones, we are assigned Yeshua’s righteousness judicially. By deliberately giving his life as a ransom for us, because he had never sinned, Yeshua redeems us from our deserved curse…everlasting death. And in conjunction with our declared trust in Yeshua’s righteousness, we are given spiritual rebirth, and the gift of indwelling of the Ruach haKodesh to help us grow, and be ever more obedient to until the New Covenant is fully written upon the hearts of all of us when Yeshua returns as King Messiah to rule and reign in the Messianic Age.
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Post by garrett on Mar 2, 2015 19:22:00 GMT -8
Questor - just a note of encouragement on going to synagogues: I was raised in churches my whole life. Then I discovered by accident that I was Jewish on my Mom's side. Dad is Scottish. That being said, I was already involved in studying "things Jewish" in relation to my faith. I was meddling with the alef-bet, jewish culture and whatever things interested me. My city has a significant amount of synagogues. By this time I was already wearing a kippah, just because it reminded me of G-d and it modified my behavior. So, I strolled into a beautiful old shul I often drove past(wearing hospital scrubs and a kippah) and asked a very nice older man if I could see his shul. He said, "of course." We talked for a bit inside the synagogue. I was very frank with him and told him I'd never been inside one before and that I'd like to attend but wouldn't even know what to do. I mentioned that I wouldn't want to offend anyone either. He just suggested what to wear, told me what time to show up and that I could sit next to him and he'd guide me through it. Most of the fear and intimidation was from myself. But I also didn't care too much of what others might think and viewed this as a great opportunity. The Siddur is also in English and so is the . English on one side, Hebrew on the other. This is an Orthodox synagogue and you'd be surprised at the amount of people that don't know a lot of Hebrew. I was told by an older man one Saturday that everyone is literally in a different place. Some are just starting out. I found this encouraging. I know this only addresses a little piece of everything you were talking about but I literally felt like a gentile man going to this place for the first time. Boldness, sincerity and the right motives are a good place to start. I sometimes just have to remind myself that I will walk in the doors because it's my heart's desire. Looking "foolish" is something I care less and less about. Life on earth is short. And my reason for going is simple: to pray, read , to worship G-d, to pray for the people there and to pray for all the children who go running down the aisles to kiss the Sefer (and get a lollipop from the rabbi) when things start to wrap up. Sometimes I get invited to someone's house for lunch or I just go home. It's a nice day. Tiring, but always a good tired. So as far as that goes, feel free to go. There are also non-Jews at the synagogue I attend. I think that's nice. Take care - garrett |
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 3, 2015 9:18:00 GMT -8
I don't feel like I am the person to be making any recommendations on your statements. I will say, that if you feel like you are just being met with hostility, accusations, and disregard; waiting to speak or not speaking until you feel lead to may be a good idea.
There is a difference between someone being truly interested to hear what you have to say, and someone just wanting an argument or a scene. Yeshua set an amazing example of how we can handle that. One statement lead by the spirit may say the most.
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"perfectly". G-d Himself
