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Post by Questor on Mar 7, 2015 16:58:08 GMT -8
I don't feel like I am the person to be making any recommendations on your statements. I will say, that if you feel like you are just being met with hostility, accusations, and disregard; waiting to speak or not speaking until you feel lead to may be a good idea. There is a difference between someone being truly interested to hear what you have to say, and someone just wanting an argument or a scene. Yeshua set an amazing example of how we can handle that. One statement lead by the spirit may say the most.
My most recent re-write is as follows, in my attempt to only answer the question of why a Jew would need to believe in a man. If a Jew could be righteous by his own actions in his own strength, I wouldn't bother to answer.
Sin and death came to all men because of G-d's action based on one man’s sin; even so judicial righteousness and life eternal are given to anyone who will trust G-d’s action based on one man’s G-d enabled righteousness.
You are yet a sinner, though you are as observant as you can be as an Orthodox Jew, where I am yet a Gentile sinner, learning the first steps of  Observance. Our actions alone are not sufficient to keep us from receiving the ultimate curse of eternal death for being an heir to Adam's brokenness, for we are incapable of righteousness in our own strength. G-d’s instructions have been continuously broken in the past by every man. The history of the Jews and the Gentiles alike is replete with the punishment that G-d sends because no man can keep G-d's instructions in full righteousness, without fault. Our broken world and broken condition is the evidence of that fact.
The benefit for the Jew walking in Observance placing faith in G-d's action through Yeshua’s death and resurrection as the suffering servant Mashiach is the spiritual re-connection to G-d through the Ruach ha Kodesh, and the knowledge of the judicial righteousness and the eternal life that we gain from being redeemed by G-d through Yeshua as our Kinsman Redeemer. The Ruach ha Kodesh then enables us to walk ever more closely in obedience as a gift from YHVH to all who will choose to believe that G-d sent Yeshua for this purpose according to the prophecies, along with the comfort of the knowledge of our judicial righteousness, and consequent eternal salvation despite our broken humanity until the Messianic Kingdom is fully established, and the is written permanently on our hearts.
I want feedback because I want to lay the best answer I can before him.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 7, 2015 22:35:30 GMT -8
I have more questions than anything as I don't know his perspective, so I hope this isn't just causing more problems for you. If it's more problematic than helpful, feel free to disregard it.
However, I think it is getting at the same idea as you are with your references to sin and death but from a different angle. Based on my limited understanding of his perspective, my short answer would be that he needs Yeshua to live the life G-d created him to live.
I could be wrong as I do not know much about Jewish thought. I feel like common Jewish thought may not be addressing G-d's original, and I would say ultimate, will for creation and life's current discrepancy with it. G-d made us to live, and yet we die.
So I am curious does he think that G-d's original will for life still applies? If so, how does he see it being accomplished? Good works don't restore life. In dying we testify to our sin and our failure to achieve the will of G-d who said "let there be life". So if G-d's original will still applies, what is the source of that life and what justifies our resurrection thereby fulfilling G-d's will that we live?
is the will of G-d; a source of life that shows us how to exist with G-d. Yeshua is the will of G-d, a source of life that gives us the freedom to live and exist with G-d. Yeshua fulfilled the purpose of , and accomplishes the will of G-d that we live and exist with Him. He needs Yeshua because Yeshua is ; the will of G-d that we exist with Him.
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Miykhael
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To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on Mar 8, 2015 8:55:49 GMT -8
B”H
This verse come to mind, in (מִשְלֵי) Mishlei Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!
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Post by Questor on Mar 8, 2015 20:05:34 GMT -8
I want to thank you all again for your ideas. I sent an eMail to a rather scholarly Orthodox Jew in Israel who has been in the Messianic Movement since the 60's.
As Tonga did, he brought out the differences in how the mind raised in a Hebraic Mindset see's things differently than those of us who are scrambling to try and rid ourselves of the Greco-Roman ideas that permeate Christianity, which as Messianics, we do not entirely agree with...or even don't agree with a lot!
As my friend's answer was so different from my final answer, I merely sent both to the questioner, and offered them as the Gentile and Jewish answers to his question:
On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Questor <questor@earthlink.net> wrote:
My friend, I have come across a question asked by a Observant Jew...
He asks, "Why me, being a -Observant Jew, would need to believe in a man named Yeshua? Note that I am a practicing, born Jew. Being born Jewish means nothing, if not in conjunction with living -observant. Do not your own Christian scriptures state that the Jews "were entrusted with the whole revelation of G-D"? Romans 3:2
I want to give him a decent answer, but since my statement is from the Gentile point of view, I would like to get an answer for him that is from the viewpoint of another Orthodox Jew, an Israeli who happens to be Messianic in a fully Jewish way, yet being ever yet more zealous for the law, as the first disciples to Yeshua were in the first generation after his death.
A Messianic Gentile’s answer, one who is not of the Christian faith, would be as follows:
Sin and death came to all men because of G-d's action based on one man’s sin; even so judicial righteousness and life eternal are given to anyone who will trust G-d’s action based on one man’s G-d enabled righteousness, atoning death, and consequent resurrection.
You are yet a sinner, though you are as observant as you can be as an Orthodox Jew, where I am yet a Gentile sinner, learning the first steps of Observance. Our actions alone are not sufficient to keep us from receiving the ultimate curse of eternal death for being an heir to Adam's brokenness, for we are incapable of righteousness in our own strength. G-d’s instructions have been continuously broken in the past by every man. The history of the Jews and the Gentiles alike is replete with the punishment that G-d sends because no man can keep G-d's instructions in full righteousness, without fault. Our broken world and broken condition is the evidence of that fact.
The benefit for the Jew walking in Observance placing faith in G-d's action through Yeshua’s death and resurrection as the suffering servant Mashiach is the spiritual re-connection to G-d through the Ruach ha Kodesh, and the knowledge of the judicial righteousness and the eternal life that we gain from being redeemed by G-d through Yeshua as our Kinsman Redeemer. The Ruach ha Kodesh then enables us to walk ever more closely in obedience as a gift from YHVH to all who will choose to believe that G-d sent Yeshua for this purpose according to the prophecies, along with the comfort of the knowledge of our judicial righteousness, and consequent eternal salvation despite our broken humanity until the Messianic Kingdom is fully established, and the is written permanently on our hearts.
What would you say", I asked of him? And he answered:
All right, “Q” -- I’ll try to answer aspects of both the original query and your response. The first thought that occurs to me from reading the initial question is that the answer requires another question (or maybe a few of them). What does this -Observant Jew think is meant by “believing in” a man named Yeshua? What does he think is to be believed, and what benefit does he think is to be expected from doing so? He is quite right to note the passage that credits Jews as having been entrusted by HaShem with a “complete” or comprehensive revelation, though in referring to it as “Christian scriptures” he fails to note that it was not a Christian but rather a Pharisaic rabbi named Shaul who offered that observation. Another question to be considered is to what degree do modern Jews appropriate HaShem’s comprehensive revelation rather than only a portion of it? For example, Jewish tradition derives from the Tenakh that there are two sets of messianic qualifications: one labeled as “ben-David”, characterized as the conquering king who will restore Jewish sovereignty and dole out justice; while the other is labeled “ben-Yosef” and characterized as a suffering servant who will die because of Israel’s sins, and on our behalf, in order to provide redemption. There is also an intriguing hint that despite his death, he will somehow prolong his days and see his “seed”, which could suggest resurrection. However, Jewish messianic speculations since the Hurban have almost entirely ignored the ben-Yosef messiah, especially after it became necessary to defend ourselves against distorted Christian anti-Jewish polemics and persecution, because embracing a ben-Yosef messiah would render us too vulnerable to the distorted Christian view of it, because the real Rav Yeshua was an excellent candidate to claim such messiah-ship.
But what should a -Observant Jew do with a messiah once he gets one? Even granting that Rav Yeshua was himself an advocate of , in all its finest details, where is there any added benefit? The benefits of a ben-David style messiah have been reasonably well elaborated. What are the benefits of a ben-Yosef? In what way might he provide redemption that is not already provided by -observant behavior? A hint toward the answer might be found in consideration of the ‘Hasidic notions of the “tsaddik” and the “admor”. The “tsaddik” is viewed as having a positive yet subliminal impact on the world, and even as somehow enabling an amplification of the effectiveness of others’ prayers. The “admor” is viewed as a great master teacher whose insights into allow those that he teaches to improve their observance of . How can observance be improved? By improving the attitude, the understanding, and the perspective of the individual Jew. This is what the mussar movement attempts to do, and it is also what Rav Yeshua’s teaching aimed to do. A key concept which he emphasized was the notion of “malchut ha-shamayim” (the kingdom of heaven), and specifically its immediacy as a mental and emotional perspective that could influence all thoughts and actions in accordance with . But there is more insight to be derived from the events of Rav Yeshua’s life and death. He was observed to have been resurrected by HaShem as an example (a “first-fruit”) of the future resurrection that leads to the “‘Olam ha-ba”. He thus provides confirmation of HaShem’s promise. Further, his influence as a “tsaddik” on spiritual levels of the “pardes” is envisioned in terms of priestly service in a mikdash that is not subject to the corruptions and destructions to which the earthly Temple was subjected. Hence he enables a purification and an atonement that is currently unavailable in the absence of the earthly Temple and the operations of the Levitical priests. It is rare for modern orthodox Judaism to address such topics, because at present we are unable to accomplish these operations except in the symbolic fashion we derived to cope with the loss of the Temple. Nonetheless, some who feel this lack more strongly will resort to more physical symbols such as swinging a chicken over one’s head as a “kapparah”. Depending on how one views the validity of heavenly or spiritual “realities”, one may value Rav Yeshua’s ephemeral services as having exceptionally high value in accomplishing atonement and personal purification.
The fundamental problem being addressed in much of this is that of human failure even in the midst of efforts to follow . Even as in ancient times when sacrifices completed the atoning process of repentance and restitution or reparation, we still fall short of what we ought to feel, and to do, and to be. We are intrinsically self-centered creatures, and we are only imperfectly redeemed from it with the help of to open our consciousness outward toward exerting our energies to benefit also other people and to appreciate the Presence of HaShem (Who is the Ultimate Other, despite our having been formed in His Image). We need the help of the Spirit of HaShem that is expressed in (e.g., His perspective), and understanding and appreciating Rav Yeshua’s teaching and example aids and deepens our ability to benefit from observance with the most beneficial attitudes and perspective. It is this process that yields the continual re-valuing and re-evaluating of our lives that constitutes “redemption”, and the rescuing of ourselves from our intrinsic self-centeredness that constitutes “salvation”. This is what “believing in” a man named Yeshua is all about, and what is deemed to be supported ephemerally from on high by his merit as a “tsaddik”.
Now, as you can see from the above, “Q”, I have a very different approach to this question than yours. I might note that Rav Shaul had a better emphasis in Rom. 5:12 than appears in your first sentence, because he emphasized that the mechanism for the spread of sin and death was the action of humans “because all sinned” (rather than something which HaShem did). One might also point out that the spreading of righteousness because of Rav Yeshua’s example as one righteous individual is accomplished in much the same way: as individuals trust him, repent, seek atonement, and revise their way of living accordingly. I believe I touched on many of the same concepts as you tried to express in your response, though I omitted the forensic or judicial imagery in favor of the practical psychological process of redemption that must follow decisions which begin that process. Within the covenant, the emphasis is not so much on crime and punishment as it is on redemption and restoration. While it is true that “the soul which sinneth, it shall die”, the covenantal response is “let him bring his sacrifice, and it shall be forgiven him”, and, “HaShem’s is perfect, restoring the soul” (cif.:Ps.19:8). One difficulty in citing some of the imagery you did is that modern orthodox Jews tend to use different terminology and tend not to recognize a number of biblical code phrases that have been extracted from the scriptures. We have a few coded phrases of our own. Nonetheless, such phrases require a bit of unpacking to make their meaning intelligible in a conversation that attempts to provide explanatory answers to questions.
The differences between our answers, and where they derive from is fascinating, and is well worth a discussion on it's own.
Q
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dzm
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Post by dzm on Mar 14, 2015 19:07:32 GMT -8
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Mar 18, 2015 22:52:40 GMT -8
Am I right in thinking that his logic would be faulty as even -Observant Jews by birth cannot keep all the commandments? We were never expected to. That is a false assumption. Also, just another thought, how does he think he receives atonement with no Temple? The exact same way as with the Temple standing, teshuva. The Temple was mans idea anyway, not G-d's. |
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Post by alon on Mar 19, 2015 1:13:52 GMT -8
Am I right in thinking that his logic would be faulty as even -Observant Jews by birth cannot keep all the commandments? We were never expected to. That is a false assumption. Also, just another thought, how does he think he receives atonement with no Temple? The exact same way as with the Temple standing, teshuva. The Temple was mans idea anyway, not G-d's.
You're obviously the authority on Judaism, but just one question.
Deuteronomy 12:1,5 (ESVUK) The Lord's Chosen Place of Worship
1 “These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. ... 5 But you shall seek the place that the Lord your God will choose out of all your tribes to put his name and make his habitation there.
Isn't this usually interpreted as a commandment to build the Temple by Jewish sages?
1 Chronicles 22 starts out like the Temple was a foredawn conclusion:
1 Chronicles 22 (ESVUK)1 Then David said, “Here shall be the house of the Lord God and here the altar of burnt offering for Israel.”
But as the story unfolds it does sound like it is David's idea:
6 Then he called for Solomon his son and charged him to build a house for the Lord, the God of Israel. 7 David said to Solomon, “My son, I had it in my heart to build a house to the name of the Lord my God. 8 But the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have waged great wars. You shall not build a house to my name, because you have shed so much blood before me on the earth.
This one kind of begs further discussion, possibly even moving it to its own thread.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 19, 2015 5:02:35 GMT -8
Explain to me his question please because there is something I don't understand, and it is likely an issue with my perspective as someone raised in Christianity. He asks, "Why a Observant Jew would need Jesus?" I understood this to mean he doesn't need Yeshua because he is -observant. I was not commenting on what G-d expects. It was his question that seemed to imply an assumption on his part of his own ability to keep . I was simply pointing out he can't keep based on what seemed to be implied in his question. I don't think I understand his question. Is a better understanding of his question, "Why do I need Yeshua when I am Jewish, have , and G-d told me I don't have to keep it perfectly?" |
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Post by alon on Mar 19, 2015 10:51:58 GMT -8
Explain to me his question please because there is something I don't understand, and it is likely an issue with my perspective as someone raised in Christianity. He asks, "Why a Observant Jew would need Jesus?"
Further details I'll leave to TL and tonga. And as always if I got anything wrong there I take correction well!
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Mar 19, 2015 14:31:42 GMT -8
TL, it's been a while! Good to see you! Yes, it has been a while, my friend. How have you been? You're obviously the authority on Judaism... I'm flattered that you would say such a thing, but really, I'm no "authority" on anything. This one kind of begs further discussion, possibly even moving it to its own thread. I couldn't agree more. If you would like to create the thread, that would be great. Shalom |
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Post by alon on Mar 19, 2015 17:21:49 GMT -8
Yes, it has been a while, my friend. How have you been?  Thread started here:
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3606/deu-12-1-5
Dan C
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cgpb
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Post by cgpb on Mar 21, 2015 1:52:41 GMT -8
Why would an observant Jew need Yeshua?
Because even good intentions mean nothing to God. Jews are not exempt from man's inherent sin problem and unless their inherent sin problem is first dealt with, all their practices, traditions, and good intentions mean nothing.
The following scripture makes this clear!
"They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets,harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, (good intentions)because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God." (good intentions mean nothing to God) (2 Samuel 6:3-7) |
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Mar 24, 2015 16:02:29 GMT -8
We were never expected to. That is a false assumption. The exact same way as with the Temple standing, teshuva. The Temple was mans idea anyway, not G-d's.
You're obviously the authority on Judaism, but just one question.
Deuteronomy 12:1,5 (ESVUK) The Lord's Chosen Place of Worship
1 “These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. ... 5 But you shall seek the place that the Lord your God will choose out of all your tribes to put his name and make his habitation there.
Isn't this usually interpreted as a commandment to build the Temple by Jewish sages?
1 Chronicles 22 starts out like the Temple was a foredawn conclusion:
1 Chronicles 22 (ESVUK)1 Then David said, “Here shall be the house of the Lord God and here the altar of burnt offering for Israel.”
But as the story unfolds it does sound like it is David's idea:
6 Then he called for Solomon his son and charged him to build a house for the Lord, the God of Israel. 7 David said to Solomon, “My son, I had it in my heart to build a house to the name of the Lord my God. 8 But the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have waged great wars. You shall not build a house to my name, because you have shed so much blood before me on the earth.
This one kind of begs further discussion, possibly even moving it to its own thread.
Dan C
I think you may have misunderstood my previous comment. I was referring to atonement as it relates to the Beit HaMikdash, and that it is man's (non Jews) idea that there can be no atonement without the Beit HaMikdash. That is simply not true, and that idea is completely foreign to Judaism, and . |
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Mar 24, 2015 17:19:55 GMT -8
Because even good intentions mean nothing to God. The perspective is the exact opposite. For instance, if one cannot perform a certain mitzvah for any reason, but is intent on doing so whenever possible, he is rewarded as if he had fulfilled the mitzvah. On the other hand, if one does perform a mitzvah, without the proper intent, he is not rewarded for it's performance. Maybe this video will help some: Duties of the Heart by Rabbeinu Bachya - Intentions |
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2015 2:11:05 GMT -8
I think you may have misunderstood my previous comment. I was referring to atonement as it relates to the Beit HaMikdash, and that it is man's (non Jews) idea that there can be no atonement without the Beit HaMikdash. That is simply not true, and that idea is completely foreign to Judaism, and .
Salvation, or right standing before G-d is based on trust in Judaism, Messianic Judaism, and even in Christianity (those Christian denominations which do not teach this are so far off the mark as to be institutions of the enemy). The big sticking point is of course Yeshua. We believe that He IS G-d, just as all the previouse manifestations of G-d (theophanies) were G-d. As such, we put our trust in Him. Obviously a religious Jew would have a problem with this. So as I see it, the biggest problem is where we place our trust.
Really the differences in Judaism and Christianity (true Christianity, which is rare these days) is not that much. Just last week I told the pastor at the AoG that there were only a very few of the mitzvoth he was not already keeping! He looked at me like I was trying to convert him, so we didn't talk much more, but it is true. But the real question in all of this is "Who is the Jewish Messiah?" Christianity has an idea of a Gentilized Jesus, Messianics believe in a very Jewish Yeshua, and Jews believe Messiah has yet to reveal Himself. The rest is just how man dresses up what G-d gave us in the TNK. We could argue the B'rith Chadasha, but honestly there is nothing there not already addressed in the TNK.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 (ESV) 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Think who this was originally written to. What scriptures would they have been acquainted with from their childhood? What "Bible" would they have which would make them "wise for salvation through faith in [Yeshua]?" They had only the TNK. What they were being presented with were first hand accounts and later midrashim of this man Yeshua who was Imanuel, G-d with us. But it was and is all based in the TNK. This is the Messianic message, that Yeshua is the JEWISH Messiah. Bottom line, whether Jewish Messianic believer or converted Gentile, this is at the core of our right standing before HaShem, that we place our trust in Yeshua.
And that, by the way, Questor, is what you will have to convince your friend. No more, no less.
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Observance. Our actions alone are not sufficient to keep us from receiving the ultimate curse of eternal death for being an heir to Adam's brokenness, for we are incapable of righteousness in our own strength. G-d’s instructions have been continuously broken in the past by every man. The history of the Jews and the Gentiles alike is replete with the punishment that G-d sends because no man can keep G-d's instructions in full righteousness, without fault. Our broken world and broken condition is the evidence of that fact.
