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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2015 2:21:41 GMT -8
See, now you're scaring me. Except for the wearing of kippot and the use of Hebrew this could have been a Baptist Bible study. But that ain't the scary part- the study leader looks and sounds like my cousin!
Dan  C
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 25, 2015 9:13:40 GMT -8
I am rephrasing the question for myself to "Why do Jewish people need a Messiah that overcomes death?" I think that is the underlying issue we are discussing. Perhaps this question is way off, but then I still need a better understanding.
Why do we need Yeshua? Why do we need  ? Why do we need repentance and salvation? We need them only because mankind is somewhere G-d doesn't want us to be.
Intentions matter. They show G-d our heart. However, as good as our intentions are, we are still in a situation we cannot handle. We were not made to take on the responsibilities we have taken upon ourselves. We were not made to contend with sin. We were not made to die. We were not made to need redeeming. Of course G-d knew we would need redeeming because He knew the choices we would make, but His ultimate plan is that we simply exist in harmony with Him.
I consider this life as basically a test we get to retake after we actually do some study. We didn't have enough faith in what He said when He told us we would die, so He is showing us what He said. Now we know what sin and death is so we have a more informed choice.
When someone dear dies or death is particularly tragic, people often ask G-d "Why, why???". We cannot make sense of it. I think the whole point of this life, is that question. I imagine G-d looking down on us, and thinking to himself the very same question. I imagine Him hoping the dissonance gives us a better understanding of His perspective and our predicament. This life isn't supposed to make sense because it is not where He made us to be. We live in a world that chose to try and live apart from G-d, but clearly we cannot and so we die. Yeshua overcame the consequence of this choice to fulfill the will of His Father for life because we can't. |
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Post by Questor on Mar 26, 2015 20:16:58 GMT -8
I think you may have misunderstood my previous comment. I was referring to atonement as it relates to the Beit HaMikdash, and that it is man's (non Jews) idea that there can be no atonement without the Beit HaMikdash. That is simply not true, and that idea is completely foreign to Judaism, and .
Salvation, or right standing before G-d is based on trust in Judaism, Messianic Judaism, and even in Christianity (those Christian denominations which do not teach this are so far off the mark as to be institutions of the enemy). The big sticking point is of course Yeshua. We believe that He IS G-d, just as all the previouse manifestations of G-d (theophanies) were G-d. As such, we put our trust in Him. Obviously a religious Jew would have a problem with this. So as I see it, the biggest problem is where we place our trust.
Really the differences in Judaism and Christianity (true Christianity, which is rare these days) is not that much. Just last week I told the pastor at the AoG that there were only a very few of the mitzvoth he was not already keeping! He looked at me like I was trying to convert him, so we didn't talk much more, but it is true. But the real question in all of this is "Who is the Jewish Messiah?" Christianity has an idea of a Gentilized Jesus, Messianics believe in a very Jewish Yeshua, and Jews believe Messiah has yet to reveal Himself. The rest is just how man dresses up what G-d gave us in the TNK. We could argue the B'rith Chadasha, but honestly there is nothing there not already addressed in the TNK.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 (ESV) 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Think who this was originally written to. What scriptures would they have been acquainted with from their childhood? What "Bible" would they have which would make them "wise for salvation through faith in [Yeshua]?" They had only the TNK. What they were being presented with were first hand accounts and later midrashim of this man Yeshua who was Imanuel, G-d with us. But it was and is all based in the TNK. This is the Messianic message, that Yeshua is the JEWISH Messiah. Bottom line, whether Jewish Messianic believer or converted Gentile, this is at the core of our right standing before HaShem, that we place our trust in Yeshua.
And that, by the way, Questor, is what you will have to convince your friend. No more, no less.
Dan C
It is a pity, Dan, that he is still trying to get me to sit down and let him show me everything that proves that Yeshua is NOT Mashiach. The difficulty with that, of course, is that when I speak of Mashiach past and future, I mean Yeshua ben Joseph, the suffering servant, and he only sees a need for Mashiach ben David.
I refused his kind offer to personally attempt to get me out of my messianic beliefs...mostly due to my disability, and the long drive that would be involved, but welcomed him to again call me, and tell me line by line where I am wrong. I rather looked forward to it, since I was planning to tape the session to get the anti-missionary line clearly stated, and written down for later discussion. However, he has not called, and since I am now seeing him haunting various other YouTube messianic ministries to unsettle those that are seeking for their answers, I can't really be sorry he is leaving me alone as unreachable. Since he is not offering Judaism as an alternative to Messianic Belief, but wants gentiles to become good Noahides, and shut up about Yeshua, there really is not much more to say, at least to him.
Still, since I was foolish enough to see a question that needed an answer, and answered it with my final 3 short paragraphs, and my Israeli's friend's more scholarly discussion of the question, at least it is there at the YouTube site, answering the question, and if not for the original questioner, perhaps for someone who sees that YouTube Video, and the comments that ensued, with mine still conveniently as the last comment. In either case, I cannot be sorry for laying out an answer, even if it is not the only answer to such a question from an Observant Jew looking into Yeshua as Mashiach.
Again, I thank all of you here at Ahavat Elohim for giving me ideas. I do wish I had had the Psalm's quote that Miykhael gave when I was giving my answer, but I will keep it in mind for another time:
"Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!"
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Mar 30, 2015 10:02:16 GMT -8
See, now you're scaring me. Except for the wearing of kippot and the use of Hebrew this could have been a Baptist Bible study. But that ain't the scary part- the study leader looks and sounds like my cousin!
Dan C
Shmuel's students, as well as the vast majority of the viewing audience are Christians and Messianics, which is why I use his teachings when conversing with Christians and Messianics on message boards. Most non Jews are not ready for Orthodox teachings, and/or not even slightly open to it. The book being discussed is Chovot HaLevavot (Duties of the Heart) and is a Jewish classic. My point was regarding "intentions" according to Israel's sages (ie- Rabbeinu Bachya). |
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Post by alon on Mar 30, 2015 17:07:32 GMT -8
Because even good intentions mean nothing to God. The perspective is the exact opposite. For instance, if one cannot perform a certain mitzvah for any reason, but is intent on doing so whenever possible, he is rewarded as if he had fulfilled the mitzvah. On the other hand, if one does perform a mitzvah, without the proper intent, he is not rewarded for it's performance. Maybe this video will help some: Duties of the Heart by Rabbeinu Bachya - IntentionsSee, now you're scaring me. Except for the wearing of kippot and the use of Hebrew this could have been a Baptist Bible study. But that ain't the scary part- the study leader looks and sounds like my cousin!
Dan C
Shmuel's students, as well as the vast majority of the viewing audience are Christians and Messianics, which is why I use his teachings when conversing with Christians and Messianics on message boards. Most non Jews are not ready for Orthodox teachings, and/or not even slightly open to it. The book being discussed is Chovot HaLevavot (Duties of the Heart) and is a Jewish classic. My point was regarding "intentions" according to Israel's sages (ie- Rabbeinu Bachya).
So, are you ready for me to tell you who is right? .... Drumroll ...
(you both are)
While Rav Shmuel's class was not only interesting but correct and informative- and in reality went a lot deeper than most Baptist teachings on the subject- cgpb has a point. When HaShem says to do or not to do something, He means it. And there may be consequences even if we didn't mean it or if we had the best of intentions.
As Messianics we hear this from Christian friends all the time; "It's what's in my heart that counts." No, when God said do it this way on this day, He meant it! Now it's true this is an abuse of the concept of the duties of the heart. But we always must bear in mind that:
Jeremiah 17:9 (NASB)
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?"
So I don't see either of your positions as being exclusive of the other. Two different aspects of the same topic; a dichotomy which can never be resolved as a "push" but is easily understood and reconciled.
Dan (not a Communist) C
edit: as with most of what I see Judaism do, the intent of that class is to improve not only our understanding but our practice; to heal the heart. If we as Messianics are to "copy" anything in Judaism, this should be it. In truth Christianity tries to do the same thing, however they fall short in that they have so much false doctrine. Putting on a tallit may be a beautiful expression of the command to wear tzitzith, but if our heart is not right we may as well be putting on menstrual rags in God's eyes. If we are just doing it to copy Judaism, we're no better than the Christians saying we meant well. If it's a show of our holiness, we are no more holy than the Pharisitic leadership Yeshua condemned for their show of righteousness. Go for the understanding before we go for the outward duties of the limbs. The first duty of the heart is to get it right with HaShem!
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Apr 6, 2015 8:34:53 GMT -8
I've been pretty busy lately, Dan. But there is a number of things I would like to address in your last post. Within the next few days I should have something put together. You know how Jews are though, we are always late. Why do you think Mashiakh is running late? 
Sorry for any inconvenience it may have caused.
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Post by alon on Apr 6, 2015 10:41:59 GMT -8
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Apr 6, 2015 15:12:45 GMT -8
LROL!!!!  He wasn't late, He was early! But you were late and you missed Him!  Good one!!! You know the ironic thing in all of this, we both NOW await the same Mashiakh ben David! But we (mankind) focus on our differences, rather than commonalities. It's a real  . |
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Post by alon on Apr 6, 2015 17:42:26 GMT -8
... You know the ironic thing in all of this, we both NOW await the same Mashiakh ben David! But we (mankind) focus on our differences, rather than commonalities. It's a real .  ). But I often tell Christians there are really only a handful of things they'd have to do to be observant; assuming of course they are being good Christians already. Unfortunately these include dietary laws and pagan holidays.
Between Messianics and Jews there is the obvious- is Yeshua the one coming as Moshiach ben Dovid. And some Jews do not like us trying to, in their eyes, imitate their culture. And I can see that. My wife converted before we met, more years ago than I want to think on. Yet she still doesn't like it. I think she has gotten to the point at least where she knows I am serious, not just trying on a new lifestyle. But to an extent we do try and imitate you. You're the ones who've been TO for 3500 yrs. What should we do, imitate the Christians? Yet too we try to use discernment as a.) there are some differences in how we see things scripturally, and b.) just imitating you would be foolish as well as counterproductive. As I think your video points out, get the affairs of the heart straight first, then attend to the affairs of the limbs! Understand and internalize what you are trying to accomplish, then go and do it!
But honestly, you are correct. When you get right down to it, if we are all doing it right, there just isn't that much difference in Messianism and either Judaism or Christianity; and really there isn't that much difference in Judaism and TRUE Christianity! My background, as you know, was hell-fire-and brimstone Southern Baptist on Dad's side and Assemblies of God on Mom's. In BOTH there is no doubt that the Jews were and are the Chosen People of God! There is still a LOT of what I call Displacement Theology in their doctrine. They have displaced you for a time (at least giving you a break from all those blessings ), but they know in the End Times, when things get really bad, they are going to get yanked out of here and you'll get it all back! 
(Ain'titgoodtobeaChristiancanIgetanAmen!brothers and sisters!?) 
But by and large they both love and respect the Jews and support Israel. I wish all Christianity could at least be like that. I think this is why you see so many ex Baptist and AoG in the Messianic movement. But we are seeing more Catholic and Anglican and others, which is a good sign!
Anyhow, that's a long rant to agree with a simple comment. But I agree! 
Dan C
edit: I don't want to leave the impression that everything is just hunky-dory when it comes to Baptists and AoG not being anti-Semitic. They aren't intentionally so (for the most part- some are); however there is so much latent anti-Semitism that they don't even realize is there. It's there as holdovers from Medieval hatred that is ingrained into mainstream thought and as translational errors in our Bibles- most of it intentional at first but now just accepted as "obvious" by modern translators. I suppose I still have some I haven't found and eliminated yet. But TL hasn't given up on me, so I suppose there is hope ... |
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Torah Lishmah
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Apr 18, 2015 20:53:07 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Apr 19, 2015 4:29:14 GMT -8
But I often tell Christians there are really only a handful of things they'd have to do to be observant; assuming of course they are being good Christians already. Unfortunately these include dietary laws and pagan holidays.
Halacha- do you believe every law handed down by Rabbis past is still binding? For instance the prohibition on driving on Shabbat as it creates a spark. We believe that contemporary Rabbis make halacha based on Biblical principles applied to our present circumstances. I live in a farming and ranching community. If we couldn't drive on Shabbat, no one could get to Synagogue. The sparks are contained, not open. So we drive to synagogue. We can also access a live streamed service, which uses an electrical device, for those who cannot drive to a service.
Fences- I see the need for them and even use some myself. However many of these go way past what the meaning given in scripture was. For example having 2, or in some sects 4 sets of kitchenware because of the injunction not to boil a kidd in its mothers milk. This was originally a prohibition of a very cruel pagan practice which got taken to extremes. First you didn't take a new kidd and boil it in the mothers milk in front of the mother. Then it was decided you couldn't mix meat and dairy, just in case. Then the separation of utensils to prepare meat and dairy.
So while I am not against anything simply because it is Rabbibical, which would be foolish because these were studious, Godly men. However, being men I think many went way too far in trying to leave their mark in a field of shrinking opportunities. Others were just extremists. Speaking as an extremist myself, I can tell you we are good people (  ) just not always well received by others.
So when I/we say " observant" we mean first as laid down in scripture, and second as interpreted by contemporary Rabbis. Messianism, being a renewed movement has not gotten around to dealing with fences very well yet, though I suspect at some point we must tackle this question. When we do, I also suspect ours will be somewhat a different list and application to yours.
But again, since Judaism is far from unified on all these things themselves, I need to know where you are coming from before we can really discuss the matter.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Apr 20, 2015 14:52:21 GMT -8
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Post by jimmie on Apr 24, 2015 9:50:08 GMT -8
www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htmModerator note: This site is a Jewish site and so contains many things we believe to be false doctrine; however it does give us a very good idea how Jews see the Moshiach as well as how they view Christianity's idea of Messiah, so I am going to leave it up. It is both pertinent to the discussion and very informative, but read with discernment. Thanks, jimmie. Dan
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
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Post by Torah Lishmah on May 24, 2015 16:43:30 GMT -8
While Rav Shmuel's class was not only interesting but correct and informative- Shmuel is not a Rabbi. In his own words, he is " just a Jew." First I'd have to know how you view the Talmud- is it commentary, equal to or above scripture? Here is another area where Judaism differs greatly from Christianity and MJ. Almost without exception, Christians and MJ's cling to " Sola Scriptura." There is no such concept in mainstream Judaism. Many texts are considered authoritative. So laws with their origins in Talmud would not necessarily be binding (not necessarily wrong either). There are no laws in Talmud without reference in the written , that is a false assumption. Will you join me in a thread about Talmud, if I create one? |
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Post by alon on May 24, 2015 21:39:30 GMT -8
While Rav Shmuel's class was not only interesting but correct and informative- Shmuel is not a Rabbi. In his own words, he is " just a Jew."  But seriously, he was a pretty good teacher in that video clip.I and many other Meshiachim are nowhere near sola scriptura. Rav S. teaches the same as you just said, that canonization is a Gentile concept. We view what Christianian pastors call "Deuterocannon" (the average Christian would look at you like you're speaking Greek to them) as worthy of study for many reasons, among them:
* they contain valuable spiritual lessons
* they fill in gaps in history, customs and Hebraic thought
* they can expand our knowledge and change attitudes toward many things
Talmud does much the same thing. We view it as commentary, but often by men who can claim something no Christian commentator can make- they were there, or heard it from those who were there! Much of it is debate by some of the great theological thinkers of the time. So while there is disagreement, I am sure Tamudic scholars can learn much from these men. We especially hold the Mishna in high regard. There are also some pretty wild things in the Talmud, especially in the Gemara; and the further into the period of Christian persecution you get the more anti-Christian the writings (understandably) become. And we Meshiachim are regarded as Christian, with little or no distinction and often even more animosity by most Jews. So while many of us do hold Talmud in high regard, it is still commentary and so must be read with utmost discernment. This is in contrast to most Christians who view their favorite commentators with minds so open they believe anything written. I still refer to Christian commentators, but use every bit as much and more discernment with them.
There are some Deuterocannonical books which do contain errors in them in either history or doctrine. So we do use much discernment with them as well. We do hold the 66 books of the Christian Bible to be true; the benchmark, if you will. But we as Meshiachim hold, unlike Christians, hold as the basis and the primary benchmark. And we read the Bible with discernment as well. We are also taught to use discernment when handling scripture.2 Timothy 2:15 (YLT) be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;This is no less than a commandment to us to use discernment when reading scripture. The words of Rav Sha'ul, which have been redacted and misinterpreted as an excuse to oppress Jews and suppress the influence of Judaism in Christianity for now millennia are a good case in point. I have written here many times how Sha'ul (Paul) was a Jew and a Pharisee, how he loved his people, and how he was undeniably observant until the day he died. I have argued this point with pastors who have Masters degrees, and not one has been able to prove me wrong! And not because I am a great debator- it is clearly written in their "New Testament", IF you read it with discernment!
So yes, I do see your point, and I doubt we are that far apart in our views, though you may give more weight to Talmud and/or other documents than I do. Some Jews, as I've read anyhow, do hold Talmud to be above scripture because to their minds you cannot understand scripture without Talmud. That is where we'd part dramatically if you held this view. I'd still respect this, but it would change the tenor and direction of any discourse. But I do appreciate your bringing up this distinction about Jewish thought, however you view things.I think this could be very instructional, however as a moderator I would have to be very careful in setting a precedent which others might take advantage of. I just had to remove a member who was trying to teach against observance here because he was always right on the cusp of noncompliance with the rules. So I can't be involved in anything that might be misused later to say I teach the other way. It is a  fact that we get more people trying to get on here to "show us the light" (and there seem to be enough different lights out there to illuminate NYC) than we do actual contributing posters. I earlier had to remove a Messianic and a friend who had converted to Orthodox Judaism and wanted to show us all his way. So let me run this by R Reuel and see. Maybe with a disclaimer up front, and if we communicate by PM to keep it within bounds ... although by its nature something like this would have to go somewhat out of the boundaries set by the rules. But one of the things I speak about and believe, and personally have trouble doing, is thinking Hebraically. So yes, I'll argue for this. However we have had so many problems in the past R Reuel may not think it is a good idea. We'll see.
As always, appreciate your insights.
Dan C |
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). But I often tell Christians there are really only a handful of things they'd have to do to be 
) just not always well received by others.
fact that we get more people trying to get on here to "show us the light" (and there seem to be enough different lights out there to illuminate NYC) than we do actual contributing posters. I earlier had to remove a Messianic and a friend who had converted to Orthodox Judaism and wanted to show us all his way. So let me run this by R Reuel and see. Maybe with a disclaimer up front, and if we communicate by PM to keep it within bounds ... although by its nature something like this would have to go somewhat out of the boundaries set by the rules. But one of the things I speak about and believe, and personally have trouble doing, is thinking Hebraically. So yes, I'll argue for this. However we have had so many problems in the past R Reuel may not think it is a good idea. We'll see.
