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Post by maranguape on Sept 20, 2018 15:58:55 GMT -8
Why would an observant Jew need Yeshua! Do you know of any observant Jew who needs Yeshua? Jesus has been dead for over 2000 years. What for would the living need the dead? Now Alon, no offense meant but, to admit Divinity to a mortal aka son of man, is a classic method of idolatry. For an observant Jew to need Yeshua, he must first desert Judaism and accept Christianity. Resurrection cannot be claimed because there has never been an eyewitness to his claimed resurrection.
Alon, you must try to understand my position. The NT is not part of the Tanakh and, it was never been part of the gospel of Yeshua. All his life he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. So, my point here is not that you admit Divinity to a man but that the man happened to be a Jew and, for a Jew this is idolatry. It sounds like slander.
maranguape said: If any one can provide me with one, I will rephrase all my views about NT Theology.
Alon, you must have forgotten that I did not say witness but eyewitness. Yes, my proposal includes Jerusalem. There was not a single person in Jerusalem who was an eyewitness of the Christian claim that Yeshua ever resurrected. None of the apostles saw that happening. Report by hearsay does not have the power of an eyewitness report. The gospel of Yeshua was the Tanakh. Any thing in the NT written about Yeshua was from hearsay. BTW, even the angel of Matthew who came down and removed the stone saw nothing as the tomb was empty. Now,
regarding dying horrible death without recanting, if you compare 11 apostles with millions of Jews during the Holocaust, that yes, was
horrible death without recanting. Anyway, I wonder how recanting would help them. BTW, Yeshua was crucified on the charge of sedition for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Hence,
his verdict INRI commanded by Pilate to be nailed on the top of his cross.
Once, speaking to his disciples, Yeshua define the Truth as the Word of HaShem. (John 17:17) And, the Word of HaShem was given to Israel and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20) So, you do not need to pray for me to accept the Truth as I have It already. BTW, Yeshua also had the Truth as he implied that salvation comes from listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 20, 2018 17:54:01 GMT -8
Moses wasn't even allowed into the land. The sin was pride against G-d. Since you don't believe in the afterlife anyway, we will just talk about entering the land according to the will of G-d Who says He'll be the One to bring Israel into the land for the sake of His own Name. (Ezekiel 20 for one reference)
Moses saw G-d, gave the Torah of G-d to Israel, interceded for Israel who would have been consumed without him doing so, and is called a friend by G-d Himself. He was not allowed to enter the land over this one infraction that was pride against G-d. Do you think you can do better than Moses maranguape?
That sounds harsh, I know, but G-d's standards don't and haven't changed. I'm not trying my to be harsh. I'm just serious, and I think it's worth considering.
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Post by alon on Sept 20, 2018 19:29:29 GMT -8
No, a Jew should not convert, since he is already Jewish. All he need do is accept Yeshua as Messiah. That does not change his status a a Jew. Paul and all the other apostles were born, lived and died as Jews. And they worshiped in the synagogues with their fellow Jews: Matthew 4:23a And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom,
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Yeshua knew His besora would spread and be taught, because He was the One the prophets had told of for centuries: Matthew 3:1-3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
The phrase “kingdom of heaven” or “kingdom of God” is used about thirty times in Matthew. It’s actually plural, "the kingdom of the heavens.” The name is descriptive of the kingdom of the Messiah. Its origin is in the Jewish apocalyptic tradition, especially: Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
This “Son of Man,” very obviously a heavenly being, exists in the heavens yet is given dominion on earth. And by your own reasoning this cannot be Israel, because we only live once, here on earth, then we die. (You would come to the right conclusion, but by the wrong path) The term "Ancient of Days" is very often associated with another Jewish literary tradition, the "Throne Tradition." And the "Son of Man" is often very vividly described in those writings as well; always as supernaturally existent. We do not consider the following to be scripture, however they do provide insight into the literary traditions I just referenced: “Affliction will come on earth … He will be called Great … Son of God He will be called and Son of the Most High they will call Him … His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom … He will judge the earth in truth and will make peace.” (Aramaic Apocalypse- 4Q246)
“And there I saw one who had a head of days; and his head was white like wool. And with him was another being, whose countenance had the apearance of a man. And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. And I asked the angel who went with me and he showed me all the hidden things concerning that Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, [and] why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This is the Son of Man who has justice, with whom dwells justice, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him. And his lot has pre-eminence with the Lord of the Spirits in uprightness forever.” (1 Enoch 46:1-3)
“And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of his glory, and the spirit of justice was poured out upon him. And the sword of his mouth slays all the sinners, and the unjust are destroyed from before his face.” (1 Enoch 62:2)
“In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, takes the keys of Gehinnom and gives them to Michael and Gabriel before the eyes of all the just ones. And he says to them: Go and open all the gates to Gehinnom … Immediately Michael and Gabriel go and open the 40,000 gates to Gehinnom.” (Attributed to Rabbi Akiva, A. Jellinek, Beit Hamidrash, part 3)
According to this Jewish tradition of the approximate time of Yeshua, the Kingdoms of Heaven and Hades (Hell) have gates, which require keys to lock and unlock. Two reasons to have locked gates- to keep someone in, or to keep someone out- or both. In the Revelation of John it is Yeshua who holds those keys. You are transferring the meaning of your terms here. An eyewitness can be someone who saw Yeshua after His crucifixion. If He was killed, but is seen alive by a whole city then He must have been resurrected! And this was not heresay, but many people who knew Him saw Him, talked to Him, and heard His teachings. And as I said elsewhere, it is ridiculous to expect a witness to the actual resurrection, as they would have had to have been entombed with Him to actually see it happen. And I agree that the TNK is His gospel. There is nothing new in the entire so called “New Testament.” And this includes Revelation and the Gospels. God did not just let His Messiah and apostles step into a void: 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
The only scripture they had at the time this was written was the TNK. Everything you need to recognize Yeshua as Messiah is in the TNK. Compare the NT to the TNK and nothing there contradicts. However you must look with fresh eyes, seeing things as they are written and not as the church says they mean. Not really a good comparison, as those millions who died in the Shoa and other acts of anti-Semitic murder had no choice. The ones who could did not go into danger, but hid, fled, or pretended to be Christian. The apostles went openly, knowing they could be killed. Recanting would have helped because then no one would have been offended and come after them. In fact, they'd have been held up as a shining refutal to the rest of the Nazarine sect. Yes, the Romans didn’t care that He had angered a few Jewish leaders. But they did care that there was a contender to the throne and a potential rival for power in the region. However they also did not want a riot on their hands while all the men of Israel were in town for one of the shalosh regalim. Yeshua was recognized by the nation as what we’d call the crown prince, next in line for the throne. Those genealogies were not kept for no reason. They were kept so that everyone would know who was Jewish royalty in the line of King David. Yeshua was on both sides, his mother’s (Luke 3) and His adoptive father’s (Matthew 1). So Yeshua was next in line to the throne and the most likely candidate for Messiah among all the claimants of the time. The Jewish leadership changed the charge when they brought Yeshua before Pilate. Even then Pilate said "I find no fault in this man." (Luke 23:4)
But Pilate was between a rock and a hard place. He could well have a riot if the Jews found out in time to stop this. On the other hand, here were the Sadducees, the leaders that Rome backed and who kept them in control in Israel, demanding Yeshua be crucified. So he washed his hands, not to get the blood off them but as a show that it wasn't his choice but that of these Jewish leaders. I will continue to pray the truth for us all. It’s what I do. And we as well as the NT agree that the Word of God is given only to the Jews: Romans 3:1-2 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.And  is our base. Everything that comes after must agree with or it cannot be called holy writ. That includes the NT. Dan C |
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Post by garrett on Oct 2, 2018 14:06:00 GMT -8
That was a really useful history lesson for me. Thanks I wonder if it was also just a way to protect the disciples. It wasn't until after He ascended that the Helper was given to them. Remember how quickly they fell away during the betrayal and trial. I just think going into pagan cultures with demonic gods would have been too much for them at that time perhaps. Additionally, we Gentiles weren't ready for them. Remember the gadarenes who begged Yeshua to leave their town after He healed the demon possessed man. We were not ready to be healed and accept Yeshua generally. Those few who were earnestly sought Him out and were healed and blessed. There's just an order that protects and prepares us with the best chance of accepting Him. Beyond that I think it's just a matter of G-d's faithfulness being exhibited through devotion to Israel. Though He Was generally rejected, He did His part to reach them. Otherwise, we could find fault with Him for neglecting them. I agree, this was a good refresher in history from Questor and Alon. I had forgotten some of those details. I might not mention any more on this topic of a "witness to the Resurrection" but when it comes down to brass tacks... What person witnessed creation? What person witnessed the creation of man from the dust? What person, other than a small few, witnessed the destruction of Sodom and it's surrounding cities? What person witnessed the giving of to Moshe? All of us take some of these "nearly preposterous" assertions of the Bible on faith, trust or the willingness to believe. However, woven throughout the fabric of scriptures I find actual historical occurrences, direct assertions and fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecies corroborating with each other in quite an undeniable way. That's the way things have worked in my brain so far..... Hope everyone is well - garrett |
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Post by Questor on Oct 2, 2018 15:52:23 GMT -8
That was a really useful history lesson for me. Thanks I wonder if it was also just a way to protect the disciples. It wasn't until after He ascended that the Helper was given to them. Remember how quickly they fell away during the betrayal and trial. I just think going into pagan cultures with demonic gods would have been too much for them at that time perhaps. Additionally, we Gentiles weren't ready for them. Remember the gadarenes who begged Yeshua to leave their town after He healed the demon possessed man. We were not ready to be healed and accept Yeshua generally. Those few who were earnestly sought Him out and were healed and blessed. There's just an order that protects and prepares us with the best chance of accepting Him. Beyond that I think it's just a matter of G-d's faithfulness being exhibited through devotion to Israel. Though He Was generally rejected, He did His part to reach them. Otherwise, we could find fault with Him for neglecting them. |
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liora
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Post by liora on Aug 30, 2019 18:27:16 GMT -8
Hello everyone! This is not my question, of course, but that of a certain man who has been an advocate against Messianic Judaism in the past.
He, I believe, depends a great deal on the  stream of Orthodox Judaism, but even I can see that the writers at Chabad.org, in their writings, sometimes sound an awful lot like Believers without ever actually saying Yeshua's name, which since Yeshua was speaking from a completely Jewish standpoint, is understandable. For that matter, so does much of the Talmud when discussing Maschiach. Perhaps this guy has finally noticed that.
He asks, "Why me, being a -Observant Jew, would need to believe in a man named Yeshua? Note that I am a practicing, born Jew. Being born Jewish means nothing, if not in conjunction with living -observant. Do not your own Christian scriptures state that the Jews "were entrusted with the whole revelation of G-D"? Romans 3:2
I truly do not know if he is still seeking for answers, or simply trolling here and there asking difficult questions that Christians never can answer (I stumbled over him again at a YouTube site, but I would like to give him a really good answer from a Judaic standpoint, not a Gentile one, so I ask your help.
Q I would direct him to Leviticus 17:11 (... to atone for your souls. For it is the blood that atones for the soul.). He needs an acceptable (according to HaShem's standard) blood sacrifice to atone for his sins. The blood of sheep, goats, or chickens will not pay that price. He has sinned against an Eternal G-D, therefore he needs an Eternal Blood Sacrifice.
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Post by Questor on Sept 3, 2019 13:33:22 GMT -8
Questor, as I read through your reply to your friend I see it as very confrontational. Understanding these things yourself is fine, but my suggestion is to let him talk and then answer with specific points. Throwing all this at him as written will not convince, but more likely turn him away. And show him, don't argue the point(s).
Another suggestion is to go through the Messianic prophecies with him and explain where Yeshua fulfilled those prophecies; keeping in mind of course that some are yet to be fulfilled. Chosen People Ministries has a book called "Isaiah 53 Explained" which they used to send to any Jewish person free. Ask before you send for it to be mailed to him, but if he'll read it that is a good way to witness.
Attacking the Rabbis and their beliefs about Talmud is argumentative, plus really we don't fully understand what they believe about these things. Different sects probably hold different views, but all of them would probably view such an attack as another Crusade against Judaism.
He may not want to hear any of this. If this is the case, don't tell him. It is not your responsibility to tell anyone who doesn't want to hear it, and browbeating him now may just harm your or someone else's chances to talk to him later.
I am an argumentative person by nature, and it is difficult for me to just shut up and listen to the other person then answer their questions even when witnessing to a Gentile. I do this with Christians as well- I only tell them what they want to hear about MJ; except for the preacher's. They get an ear full because it is their responsibility to give their congregations the truth. Just be ready for the back-blast though when taking this approach, which is likely what you'll get if you give that paper to your friend.
Just talk with him. Answer his questions. If you don't know, say you'll find out and get back to him. But don't argue. You are not in this to win- he is the only one that can win or loose in this discussion, and the real discussion is between him and God. Your job is more to get out of the way and let God persuade him. Use the scriptures and don't try to argue the Talmud. God's Word convicts, and you don't know enough Talmud to do more than get in over your head real quick. The TNK is your common ground, and the B'rith Chadasha is where the prophecies in the TNK are fulfilled. Present it as such, and as a Jewish document, not as a new religion but as a renewing of the same religion.
Going into this discussion with a preplanned argument may work well in your mind. But just remember the old boxers adage, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." You're there to persuade, not to fight. Let him lead and answer his questions instead of giving your arguments to things that may not have even been an issue until you challenged him.
And hide that paper so he never sees it! 
Dan C
It is very true that at the time I knew very little of Orthodox Judaism's reluctance to read any books but those authorized by their Rabbi, lest their minds be tainted by Messianic Heresies. I simply think that narrow minded from a scholarly point of view...particularly as I want nothing more than to expand my understanding of how a well trained Orthodox Jew is taught, so that I can understand better what they are not taught...just as Gentile Believers in Yeshua need to learn what they have not been taught.
That, in essence, became the source of his arguments...he wanted nothing so much as to prove me wrong when I was trying to get an understanding of just why he was so much against the idea of Yeshua being Mashiach. He was always telling me about discussing my crazy notions in shul with his friends, and how they worked together to get me, I presume, into a proper Noachide status, or to convert to Orthodox Judaism if I was so inclined. His favourite offer was to get me to meet with him so that I could be shown how the genealogies in the Brit Chadashah proved Yeshua could not be of the line of David. I simply replied that G-d thought outside the box of the Yeshiva and that he needed to try that occasionally, as G-d can do what he wishes to provide us the solutions to the problem of our own inability to be righteous.
It was his notion that a list of questions to me should be answered and presented to him for comment...I presume so he could better tear my arguments apart. In the end, I felt very sorry for him, as I do for anyone who will not look at what is in their own Bible, and pray for YHVH to show them the truth they need to see. In the end, there are none who are so blind as those who do not wish to see, and do not go to the one who can show them the truth, and is more than willing to do so, that their hearts as well as their flesh can be circumcised. |
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Post by Questor on Sept 3, 2019 13:46:35 GMT -8
I have more questions than anything as I don't know his perspective, so I hope this isn't just causing more problems for you. If it's more problematic than helpful, feel free to disregard it.
However, I think it is getting at the same idea as you are with your references to sin and death but from a different angle. Based on my limited understanding of his perspective, my short answer would be that he needs Yeshua to live the life G-d created him to live.
I could be wrong as I do not know much about Jewish thought. I feel like common Jewish thought may not be addressing G-d's original, and I would say ultimate, will for creation and life's current discrepancy with it. G-d made us to live, and yet we die.
So I am curious does he think that G-d's original will for life still applies? If so, how does he see it being accomplished? Good works don't restore life. In dying we testify to our sin and our failure to achieve the will of G-d who said "let there be life". So if G-d's original will still applies, what is the source of that life and what justifies our resurrection thereby fulfilling G-d's will that we live?
is the will of G-d; a source of life that shows us how to exist with G-d. Yeshua is the will of G-d, a source of life that gives us the freedom to live and exist with G-d. Yeshua fulfilled the purpose of , and accomplishes the will of G-d that we live and exist with Him. He needs Yeshua because Yeshua is ; the will of G-d that we exist with Him.
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Post by Questor on Sept 3, 2019 15:17:58 GMT -8
That was a really useful history lesson for me. Thanks I wonder if it was also just a way to protect the disciples. It wasn't until after He ascended that the Helper was given to them. Remember how quickly they fell away during the betrayal and trial. I just think going into pagan cultures with demonic gods would have been too much for them at that time perhaps. Additionally, we Gentiles weren't ready for them. Remember the gadarenes who begged Yeshua to leave their town after He healed the demon possessed man. We were not ready to be healed and accept Yeshua generally. Those few who were earnestly sought Him out and were healed and blessed. There's just an order that protects and prepares us with the best chance of accepting Him. Beyond that I think it's just a matter of G-d's faithfulness being exhibited through devotion to Israel. Though He Was generally rejected, He did His part to reach them. Otherwise, we could find fault with Him for neglecting them.
Yeshua's Disciples were bare of protection except by Yeshua until Yeshua was executed and had risen, and then at last, the Ruach haKodesh fell on those waiting as they had been told to...and what a difference having the Ruach haKodesh made in them! From being scared of what was to come and meeting quietly together for companionship and reassurance in those very dark and fearful days after Yeshua ascended, they became bold teachers, and disregarded what happened to them as if it simply did not matter.
They had known and lived with Yeshua, and were walking in the Way of Yeshua in ways we do not understand how to do, and yet, until the Ruach was given, there was no power for them to grasp onto, and thus no careful teaching as to just what had happened in Israel, and how their fellow countrymen had missed what they had had...a deep relationship with Yeshua when he was alive and fully human, and yet so able to walk as they could not in .
And yet, most people, Gentile or Jew are not willing to take the leap of faith that gains them the protection and gentle teaching of the Ruach haKodesh, and most of us are living within the realms still run by principalities and powers, for good and ill. Yeshua's prayer before his execution is particularly revealing:
John 17:6-13 (CJB)
6 “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you,
8 because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. They have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me.
9 “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours.
10 Indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified.
11 Now I am no longer in the world.They are in the world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, guard them by the power of your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are.
12 When I was with them, I guarded them by the power of your name, which you have given to me; yes, I kept watch over them; and not one of them was destroyed (except the one meant for destruction, so that the Tanakh might be fulfilled).
13 But now, I am coming to you; and I say these things while I am still in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.
We are made complete in Yeshua by our salvation in Yeshua, and the protection of the Ruach haKodesh...if we will simply trust Abba for the power that is given to us for our protection, and for our joy. We do not know enough to walk well, but it is a great benefit to know that even as we take our faltering steps forward, we are safe in ways that others are not.
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- there are 70 faces to 
stream of Orthodox Judaism, but even I can see that the writers at Chabad.org, in their writings, sometimes sound an awful lot like Believers without ever actually saying Yeshua's name, which since Yeshua was speaking from a completely Jewish standpoint, is understandable. For that matter, so does much of the Talmud when discussing Maschiach. Perhaps this guy has finally noticed that.
