The False Gospel

[Elizabeth]

I like what Alon said about Yeshua being obedient to Himself, but I think we again run into the same limitations in trying to understand how G-d and man can coincide in a human. I think as humans we tend to see it as G-d somehow overcoming us. This is part of it, but I have found this incomplete and a place to stop.

"And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son."
John 1:14

Yeshua is where mankind's purpose meets G-ds plan for it. He was not acting just to overcome the frailties of man, although we know He very well did. He was acting to fulfill the purpose mankind was created for. In Yeshua, G-d shows us who we are meant to be. We are meant to hold His creation in such high regard we would give our life for it,  yet we are ourselves His creation.  It's this amazing selflessness that exponentially magnifies the value of any one self, and so how much worth should we see in each other! It astounds me and all I can think is how much better G-d is at math.

Yeshua was obedient to the purpose we were made for. I just wanted to state this thought because it gives me hope and awe for how beautiful mankind is meant to be.

Yeshua the suffering servant was a tremendous fighter, but His fight was to remember and be the reminder of the worth of the life G-d created.  Imagine this is the one interceding for us right now. This world has no clue how patient their G-d is and who they have to thank for it.

[alon]

The original question was "Can one be saved from a false Gospel that teaches another Yeshua?"

So this would (and should) eliminate any religion that doesn't teach of Yeshua as being a viable path to salvation. Yeshua Himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Jhn 14:6)

Since Yeshua is both God and Messiah, I think we can eliminate religions like Islam which say He was only a prophet and build doctrines of demons loosely based on His works.

That leaves us with Judaism and Christianity.

Contemporary Judaism believes in God and Messiah, but rejects Yeshua as Messiah. According to the scripture above, they have missed the mark.

Christianity can be broken down into several broad groups:

Catholic, whose doctrines of Trinity separate God into three distinct gods all of which they venerate and worship individually. This is polytheism. They also have adopted almost every pagan practice, venerate saints and pray to them. They never were a part of Judaism, the original "religion" and people of God. They do however say Jesus is God, so while it may be possible for a person to be saved in Catholicism, it is highly unlikely.

Protestant, most of whom never strayed far from their catholic roots. These too are unlikely to be saved because while they eschew the overt paganism of the catholic churches they are too close to its doctrines on the Trinity and ritual replacing repentance, obedience and trust.

Evangelical Protestantism, which while having a more moderated view of Trinitarianism and having left most of the paganism of Catholicism behind, still they hold to catholic holidays, Sunday worship and many other catholic practices. I think many evangelicals are saved, but will suffer loss in the Olam Haba. Matthew 5:19 (ESV) Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Still, many evangelicals who believe they are saved are not. This is because most do not stress obedience in their salvation message and many downplay repentance as well. And the farther one gets from , the more danger they are in of loosing what they do have.

Messianic Judaism is so fragmented it is difficult to say. It may run the gamut from cults and ebionism to Jews who accept Yeshua but don't give up their Jewishness. Let's use true Messianic Judaism as defined by this site being observant Jews and Gentile converts who accept Yeshua and try to worship God as He said to do in . We try to go from wherever we were at our accepting MJ to a form of worship as was practiced by the Nots'rim of the first cen. CE. We do as it says in Philippians 2:12 and "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." We believe God is One, that Yeshua is God, and we stress repentance AND obedience. We are still working through a lot of things. However I do believe we have the purest message of salvation and the doctrine which keeps a person closer to the truth and on track than any other religion. So the closer one is to true Messianic Judaism, I believe the closer you are to God and the more likely to be saved.

Can a Trinitarian be saved? If he doesn't believe in and worship three distinct Gods, probably so. Can someone be saved and not follow ? Those following just what the "New Testament" says have enough of the truth to be saved, yes. This is my belief anyhow. But they being farther from are in more danger of falling away or missing the mark. And they will certainly suffer loss. Those who disbelieve Yeshua as eternal God or make Him into a different God are lost. Period. So the answer to the original question as I see it is no, those believing in a different Yeshua cannot be saved. However Yeshua being God and thus incomprehensible, we don't have to understand everything about Him or get what we do know perfectly right- just there are some basics we must get right in order to be saved.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

"And we know that in all things, G-d works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose."
Romans 8:28

I agree the answer to "Can someone be a saved from a false gospel that teaches another Yeshua?" is clearly no. However, I would also say that you can't come to this conclusion based on the religion someone professes.  If someone truly seeks G-d, their thoughts will be about understanding and moving towards Him.  Religion than becomes a non-issue.

I would have told you I was Catholic for several years in my life.  He knew that, for whatever reason, I needed to go the wrong direction for a while. However, I believe even then I was saved. I guess you could ask, "What would have happened if you had died during that time?" My answer would be, "I didn't."

Salvation is a process we need to go through, but G-d already knows how it is going to turn out.

[alon]

Apr 19, 2015 6:40:39 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

... I agree the answer to "Can someone be a saved from a false gospel that teaches another Yeshua?" is clearly no. However, I would also say that you can't come to this conclusion based on the religion someone professes. If someone truly seeks G-d, their thoughts will be about understanding and moving towards Him. Religion than becomes a non-issue.

I would have told you I was Catholic for several years in my life. He knew that, for whatever reason, I needed to go the wrong direction for a while. However, I believe even then I was saved. I guess you could ask, "What would have happened if you had died during that time?" My answer would be, "I didn't."

Salvation is a process we need to go through, but G-d already knows how it is going to turn out.

Agree. And since you apparently were saved during the time before you left the Catholic Church, the answer is you'd have went to heaven had you died. But being saved, you, like all of us here, were called out of the pagan system of worship to worship God like He commanded us to. Religion itself is a gage by which some generalities can be assessed. It is not a strict rule, as you say. However the farther away from the religion, the less likely its adherents will be to be saved. And yes, salvation is a process- one which some religions make it easier to abandon than others. But in the end, it is an individuals choices, not a religious determination that makes us saved or not.

Dan C

[johnd]

Feb 16, 2005 20:55:53 GMT -8 Chizuk Emunah said:

A question was posed in another thread, and I believe the question it raised deserved it's own thread.

Q. Can one be saved from a false Gospel that teaches another Yeshua?

Before this is answered, there are some things I would like to point out.

2 Cor. 11:4
For if he who came toward you had proclaimed to you another Yeshua whom we had not proclaimed, or you had received another spirit that you had not received, or another good news that you had not accepted, you might have been persuaded well.

Okay, so Rabbi Saul says that there is another Yeshua, another spirit, and another good news (Gospel). Let's take a look and see what he might be talking about.

Matt. 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day 'Adonai, Adonai,' did we not eat and drink in your name, and have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out shadim? And in your name done many powerful works?
And then I will profess to them, that I knew them not. Depart from me all you workers of Torahlessness.

Okay, so now we know what Rabbi Saul was talking about. There is another Yeshua, another spirit, and another good news that is Torahless.
Now as we know by reading D'varim(Deut.) 13:1-5, anything that is without is false.

On to the question itself. Can one be saved from a false Gospel? The answer is NO, they cannot.
You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in a false truth and still be saved.

Alright, the doors are open. Let the debate/comments begin.

The teachings of the Rabbi Saul indicate there is an over zealousness / misapplication of even to Grace (not that Grace is -less).

Galatians 3:24–25 (NIV84)
24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

is to lead us to Grace. Therefore we fulfill in that sense. And we attain the righteousness of (not by our own means but by the imputation / accreditation of the righteousness of Yeshua Jesus).

So, do we not run the risk ourselves of teaching another Gospel that says we must keep by our own in addition to Grace?

Galatians 3:1–2 (NIV84)
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

[jimmie]

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,...

My understanding is the curse of the law is brought on by breaking the law. If man shed man's blood then by man shall his blood be shed. If you are under the curse of the law, i.e. have broken it in some point then you cann't regain righteousness by keeping other laws. So how does the law bring us to Christ? Is it not by showing us were we have erred? Because we have no kept God's law we need forgiveness for our transgressions not release from doing what we are taught by the law.

Nowhere do I read that Christ redeemed us from the blessing of the law.

[alon]

2 Peter 3:15-16 (ESV) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

You’ve taken a discourse on salvation and twisted it into an anti- rant.

Acts 15:20 (ESV) but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:31-32 (ESV) And when they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, encouraged and strengthened the brothers with many words.

One of many places Rav Sha’ul teaches to follow . New believers were given a starting place, then given further instruction in The law

Romans 7:12 (ESV) So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:22 (ESV) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Another one of the places where he upholds . So you would twist his words in the one passage which is admittedly difficult to understand; making Rav Sha’ul to be a liar to support your own anti- bias.

Dan C

[dzm]

Johnd,
If you look at what Jimmie says, we see that the is good to show us how we all are sinners before HaShem.

So I do not think that anyone here is trying to add the conditions of keeping to save them-- that would be a false gospel.

We also know that Paul did not condemn keeping nor make it a condition of keeping one's salvation-- so it serves no purpose to speak against keeping .

As L-rd Yeshua Himself says,

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:44]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” [John 5:24]

So, we see Yeshua's way to salvation through faith as well as His ability to secure His sheep into His flock-- we have been graciously given a Good Shepherd and can rely on His promises.

[alon]

From notes on Matthew study, UMJA site:

Matthew 28:19 (ESV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Yeshua says to baptize "in the name of," meaning "in the authority of."

This verse is often used to teach the Christian doctrine of a "Trinity" - a concept contradictory to a Hebrew understanding of the Scriptures. God does indeed emanate in the forms of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; but also as the Shekinah, Kingdom, the "voice of God," the "face of God," Tzaddik ("Righteous One"), New Jerusalem, the Bat Kol (voice from heaven), Wisdom, Understanding, Mercy, Judgement, Prophecy, and even "seven spirits" (Revelation ch. 1).

It is often overlooked (and frowned upon by Protestants, due to Catholic dogmas about Mary being the "mother of God"), that God is also revealed in some distinctly "feminine" forms. These include the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit), Shekinah, Kingdom and "New Jerusalem" (which is also called, "Jerusalem above" and referred to as our "mother" in Galatians 4:26) and Bat Kol (literally, "daughter of the voice). All of these terms are feminine in the Hebrew - grammatically, and at a deeper level, theologically. We even see Yeshua allegorizing Himself in "female" terms in Matthew 23:37. Recall that we are made in God's image and that image is both male and female.

Genesis 1:27(ESV) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God is not limited to three parts of a "trinity," nor are any of these emanations solely a distinct "person" (i.e., "God the Father," "God the Son," "God the Holy Spirit"), as God is One. Nor is He subject to our prejudices or interpretations of His essential being. Such doctrines are attempts to put "God in a box" as many people don't consider themselves to have strong faith unless everything is "black and white," and they have a "tidy answer" for anyone that asks an explanation.

Judaism recognizes that God is a bit more complex than we often "wish" Him to be. He reveals Himself in His , and that is infinite.

I did add some notes, and reduce some verbiage(they are MY notes, after all ). But thought you might like to see what others more educated (not me, them ) think on the topic.

Dan C

[Questor]

Sept 2, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -8 alon said:

From notes on Matthew study, UMJA site:

Matthew 28:19 (ESV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Yeshua says to baptize "in the name of," meaning "in the authority of."

This verse is often used to teach the Christian doctrine of a "Trinity" - a concept contradictory to a Hebrew understanding of the Scriptures. God does indeed emanate in the forms of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; but also as the Shekinah, Kingdom, the "voice of God," the "face of God," Tzaddik ("Righteous One"), New Jerusalem, the Bat Kol (voice from heaven), Wisdom, Understanding, Mercy, Judgement, Prophecy, and even "seven spirits" (Revelation ch. 1).

It is often overlooked (and frowned upon by Protestants, due to Catholic dogmas about Mary being the "mother of God"), that God is also revealed in some distinctly "feminine" forms. These include the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit), Shekinah, Kingdom and "New Jerusalem" (which is also called, "Jerusalem above" and referred to as our "mother" in Galatians 4:26) and Bat Kol (literally, "daughter of the voice). All of these terms are feminine in the Hebrew - grammatically, and at a deeper level, theologically. We even see Yeshua allegorizing Himself in "female" terms in Matthew 23:37. Recall that we are made in God's image and that image is both male and female.

Genesis 1:27(ESV) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God is not limited to three parts of a "trinity," nor are any of these emanations solely a distinct "person" (i.e., "God the Father," "God the Son," "God the Holy Spirit"), as God is One. Nor is He subject to our prejudices or interpretations of His essential being. Such doctrines are attempts to put "God in a box" as many people don't consider themselves to have strong faith unless everything is "black and white," and they have a "tidy answer" for anyone that asks an explanation.

Judaism recognizes that God is a bit more complex than we often "wish" Him to be. He reveals Himself in His , and that is infinite.

I did add some notes, and reduce some verbiage(they are MY notes, after all ). But thought you might like to see what others more educated (not me, them ) think on the topic.

Dan C

I always find it interesting that those who wish to avoid recognizing Yeshua as Mashiach also put a lot of limits on just who and what G-d is, how He is, and what He does, as if YHVH were bound to their ideas of Him.

I like to think about how extremely large and unsearcharble our G-d is, and thus, have no problem seeing G-d doing all manner of things in any way He chooses, even to the point of what is not described in ...simply because it has not as yet been important to write it down, presuming of course one could find someone who could write it all down, with parchment and ink, and endless time to do so.

There are an infinity of possibilities to consider...how marvelous that we have infinity to examine the question, and perhaps, even question our G-d about Himself, even as a lover seeks out the hidden qualities of his beloved.

[azaliah]

What Brit'Chadashah is that? Sounds really neat I would love to read it!

[john75]

Feb 16, 2005 20:55:53 GMT -8 Chizuk Emunah said:

A question was posed in another thread, and I believe the question it raised deserved it's own thread.

Q.

Can one be saved from a false Gospel that teaches another Yeshua?

Before this is answered, there are some things I would like to point out.

2 Cor. 11:4
For if he who came toward you had proclaimed to you another Yeshua whom we had not proclaimed, or you had received another spirit that you had not received, or another good news that you had not accepted, you might have been persuaded well.

[/color]

Okay, so Rabbi Saul says that there is another Yeshua, another spirit, and another good news (Gospel). Let's take a look and see what he might be talking about.

Matt. 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day 'Adonai, Adonai,' did we not eat and drink in your name, and have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out shadim? And in your name done many powerful works?
And then I will profess to them, that I knew them not. Depart from me all you workers of Torahlessness. [/color]

Okay, so now we know what Rabbi Saul was talking about. There is another Yeshua, another spirit, and another good news that is Torahless.
Now as we know by reading D'varim(Deut.) 13:1-5, anything that is without is false.

On to the question itself.

Can one be saved from a false Gospel?

The answer is NO, they cannot.
You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in a false truth and still be saved.

Alright, the doors are open. Let the debate/comments begin.


[/quote]

But it is so popular these days to disregard . And then there is Jehovahs witnesses, who are in full effect at the moment, i can tell you!

People say LOrd ,LOrd, and disregard his . Writhe in mock adulation babbling all sorts of gibberish trying to look like they have the secret to devotion. And they still disregard what Yeshua said to the young man who called him good teacher. 

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God. 19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear FALSE witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

That is from mark 10 KJV. this is what needs to be done. Yeshua said it very well.

[john75]

Apr 25, 2008 23:20:03 GMT -8 jewishjediguy said:

Apr 22, 2008 20:42:38 GMT -8 @vegangirl said:

What do you think about the pentecostal gospel? Do you believe its The False Gospel?
I am just wanting to learn more. Its a oneness church also.
I see some thing very special in the pentecostal churches. How they LOve God very much, some people are on there faces on the floor praying to God. Thats how I pray. They sing,dance and just love God him.

Shalom Veggie-Girl

i am sure that your question was directed moreso to Reuel, but i would like to give my point of view also, if i may

i am a former pentecostal (not oneness, though i am no longer trinitarian). i still consider myself to be quite pentecostal in much of my understanding of the New Testament, however i am open for growth and change. the pentecostal church i went to ended up on a nationwide news program back in 1989 and it caused a serious spiritual upheaval for me that is still subsiding.

now, i don't think all pentecostal churches are tweaked because of that group, though it has caused me to really think about the Word for myself, and what the Word itself had to say about itself. i know that the Gospel i received from them is what brought me to Christ, but the discipling became more of a dictatorship. so essentially theirs is not a false Gospel, but their "Shepherding/Discipling" was certainly in error.

i sincerely hope that you are not questioning the foundation of your Salvation. You have come to know the Truth about Sin and Salvation, and you Trust in Jesus, so everything is Cool. keep in His Word, follow what you know to be true, and grow. and more importantly, don't be afraid to question everything! you may not get all the answers you were looking for, and certainly not all the answers you may have expected.

i'm certain that the Spirit of the Living God has been guiding you in you quest for His Truth because of some of your questions and statements that "regular army" Christians normally don't ask or say, along with the convictions about His Word that you have. remember, as i'm sure you always do, "Let God be true, and every man a liar" (Romans 3:4), keep His Word pure in your heart.

much love in Jesus
Yochanan

here's a brief sketch of my testimony...
theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=testimonials&action=display&thread=715




Hi Jedi guy and veggie girl, surely you realise these groups are very much lawless and preach lawlessness, saying Yeshua has already fulfilled the Law, so we dont have to. I,ve been amongst them and it can seem wonderful, but a lot of it is a marked sham.

[john75]

Mar 8, 2009 17:27:13 GMT -8 youneverletgo said:

Feb 17, 2005 3:01:48 GMT -8 Blake said:

I've been wondering about this chapter... It always made me think that only the Yehudim were required to keep the in full while the Gentiles were bound by the laws of Noah.


Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let's not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another. (HNV)

I can tell you how I interpret Galatians 5, as a Christian

When I read through Galatians, it seems to me that Paul is refuting the very idea that was posted in the original post....that salvation comes by following the law. Rather, I see Paul saying here that Christ is what matters. If a person has faith in Him, then that is what justifies them.

Paul asks this question:
GAL 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not `Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

GAL 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Because this is all one letter that Paul wrote to the Galatians, this helps give a context for what Paul is talking about in chapter 5. I see Paul saying in chapter 5 that followers of Jesus need to live by the Spirit.

GAL 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

GAL 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

GAL 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

GAL 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


In other words, the standard that the Christian is to have is love. If you are living by the Spirit, and are in step with Him, you will want to serve others, love them, and bring glory to God. The fruit of the Spirit will be evident in your life -- the fruit being love, joy, peace patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. A life in Christ cannot be done through our own effort. The person has to trust and rely on God. Christianity is not about rules. It is about having a personal relationship with God. Jesus is our righteousness, and we need to keep our eyes fixed on Him and we need to rely on the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that Paul is saying by focusing on the law and making, believers in Jesus are focusing on the wrong thing. The focus needs to be on Christ and in living by the Spirit.

No one is justified by following the law....rather we are justified by faith in Christ.

When did Yeshua say that? I tell you what he did say< and i quote: " those who have my teaching , have me, those who go further, or try to go further, do not have me" This is a stark warning laid in wisdom.

[john75]

Mar 13, 2009 13:24:45 GMT -8 youneverletgo said:

Mar 31, 2005 19:28:11 GMT -8 Rick said:

Watch 5 min. of the Trinity Broadcasting Network (more than that can cause a voilent reaction), and you can see the sorry state of the "popular Christian culture".

This is what many Christians think of the Trinity Broadcasting Network:
www.apologeticsindex.org/t27.html

TBN: "The Blasphemy Network"

TBN, the Trinity Broadcasting Network, is the world's largest religious TV network. It claims to be a Christian ministry. However, while some legitimate ministries and teachers (those who adhere to the orthodox teachings and practices of historical Christianity) appear on TBN, the network - led by founders Paul and Jan Crouch - promotes such an incredible amount of heretical material, including extremist Word-Faith teachings, that it is often referred to as "The Blasphemy Network."

Heresy, Heresy, Heresy

Most of TBN's shows present the world with a mockery of Christianity, in which tall stories, unbiblical teachings, false prophecies, un-Christlike behavior and the love of money occupy center state.

Paul and Jan Crouch frequently join their guests, among whom TBN star Benny Hinn, in verbally attacking those who call TBN to accountability for its blasphemous teachings and its unbiblical practices.
The parade of guests who are featured on Paul and Jan Crouch's TBN programming runs the gamut from the serious, sound Christian thinkers and ministers to the superficial, silly, and outright heretical. How many viewers can tell the difference? How many care to try? Spiritual gullibility is widespread throughout our culture, of course, but the Word-Faith movement is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Source: The Word-Faith Controversy : Understanding the Health and Wealth GospelOff-site Link by Robert Bowman. (See details)
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The Bible tells Christians to teach sound doctrine, to confront and counter errorenous teachings, and to be on the alert for false teachers.

The Bible says:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, {17} so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Source: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV
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Paul Crouch, however, has a message for those who dare to rebuke and correct him:
To hell with you! Get out of my life! Get out of the way!…I say get out of God's way! Quit blocking God's bridges or God's going to shoot you if I don't…I don't even want to even talk to you or hear you! I don't want to see your ugly face!
Source: Paul Crouch, Praise-a-thon, April 2, 1991

Money, Money, Money

TBN's founders and leaders, Jan and Paul Crouch, tirelessly promote the so-called "Prosperity Gospel." Based on a deliberate misrepresentation of Biblical teachings, it is in reality a financial scam that can be classified as 'affinity fraud' (scams directed at people who may think that a common affiliation, such as membership of a church, club or organization, reduces or prevents the possibility of fraud).

Pastor Paul Crouch calls it "God's economy of giving," and here is how it works:

People who donate to Crouch's Trinity Broadcasting Network will reap financial blessings from a grateful God. The more they give TBN, the more he will give them.

Being broke or in debt is no excuse not to write a check. In fact, it's an ideal opportunity. For God is especially generous to those who give when they can least afford it.

"He'll give you thousands, hundreds of thousands," Crouch told his viewers during a telethon last November. "He'll give millions and billions of dollars."

Preachers who pass the hat while praising the Lord have long been the stuff of ridicule in film and fiction. But for Crouch and his Orange County-based television ministry, God's economy of giving is no laughing matter. It brings a rich bounty, year after year.

Crouch has used a doctrine called the "prosperity gospel" to underwrite a worldwide broadcasting network and a life of luxury for himself and his family.

For at least a century, preachers have plied the notion that dropping money in the collection plate will bring blessings from God — material as well as spiritual. But Crouch, through inspired salesmanship and advanced telecommunications technology, has converted this timeworn creed into a potent financial engine.
Source: TBN's Promise: Send Money and See Riches, Los Angeles Times, Sep. 20, 2004


In other words, while some Christians follow after Trinity Broadcasting Network, many of us do not. We think what is being promoted on there is heresy and blasphemy.

Please do not think that such teachings are representative of Christianity or Christian teachings.

The same can be said for God TV.

www.apologeticsindex.org/c100.html

Europe's version of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, with which it appears to be affiliated. Just like TBN, it promotes a vast array of heretical teachings, with an emphasis on Word-Faith theology.

Founded by Rory and Wendy Alec.


I know that I said I was done posting here, but I couldn't help but say something here, lest all Christians be painted as following after those who are promoted on Trinity Broadcasting Network and God TV.

Another example of the health and wealth ministries, which i detest.