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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 16, 2005 20:55:53 GMT -8
A question was posed in another thread, and I believe the question it raised deserved it's own thread. Q. Before this is answered, there are some things I would like to point out. 2 Cor. 11:4 For if he who came toward you had proclaimed to you another Yeshua whom we had not proclaimed, or you had received another spirit that you had not received, or another good news that you had not accepted, you might have been persuaded well.[/color] Okay, so Rabbi Saul says that there is another Yeshua, another spirit, and another good news (Gospel). Let's take a look and see what he might be talking about. Matt. 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day 'Adonai, Adonai,' did we not eat and drink in your name, and have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out shadim? And in your name done many powerful works?
And then I will profess to them, that I knew them not. Depart from me all you workers of Torahlessness. [/color] Okay, so now we know what Rabbi Saul was talking about. There is another Yeshua, another spirit, and another good news that is Torahless. Now as we know by reading D'varim(Deut.) 13:1-5, anything that is without  is false. On to the question itself. The answer is NO, they cannot. You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in a false truth and still be saved. Alright, the doors are open. Let the debate/comments begin. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 16, 2005 21:09:56 GMT -8
 Amen, the b'Surot Tovot (Good News/Gospel) is according to truth (Tehellim 119:142). We are justified by true faith because it is faith that causes us to walk in the true way. Of course this is all a process of sanctification, but the process will fall in line with Torahism and not paganism. Any other thoughts? Shalom aleychem chaverim (Peace be upon you friends), Reuel
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Post by Blake on Feb 17, 2005 3:01:48 GMT -8
I've been wondering about this chapter... It always made me think that only the Yehudim were required to keep the in full while the Gentiles were bound by the laws of Noah. Gal 5:1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Messiah has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Gal 5:2 Behold, I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Messiah will profit you nothing. Gal 5:3 Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole . Gal 5:4 You are alienated from Messiah, you who desire to be justified by the . You have fallen away from grace. Gal 5:5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. Gal 5:6 For in Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. Gal 5:7 You were running well! Who interfered with you that you should not obey the truth? Gal 5:8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. Gal 5:9 A little yeast grows through the whole lump. Gal 5:10 I have confidence toward you in the Lord that you will think no other way. But he who troubles you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. Gal 5:11 But I, brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been removed. Gal 5:12 I wish that those who disturb you would cut themselves off. Gal 5:13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don't use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. Gal 5:14 For the whole is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don't consume one another. Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, shalom, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Messiah have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let's not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another. (HNV) |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 17, 2005 10:21:58 GMT -8
Good question. This is a often time confused passage. What is Rav Sha’ul saying here? Is he saying that the people that join God's covenant must avoid following His commands found therein? Why circumcise Timothy then? Was Sha’ul a hypocrite? No, This passage is speaking of doing any one commandment (in this instance circumcision) to be saved as this is the wrong path. Salvation was not by circumcision. This was also the issue in Acts 15. The following is a commentary by my Jewish brother Ariel Berkowitz… I have some great studies on the subject of circumcision on my scripture study page found at www.theloveofgod.net . I hope this is helpful, Reuel |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 17, 2005 16:39:24 GMT -8
Couldn't have said it better Reuel. |
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Post by Mark on Feb 19, 2005 6:40:39 GMT -8
I think Reuel gave an excellent explanation. It's  that Galatians is so broadly used in the Christian faith to support antinomianism (lawlessness) when it is not at all what Paul is promoting. It's as if these proponents completely dismiss Galatians 5:17-19. Paul is writing to a specific audience dealing with a specific doctrinal heresy (Galatians 1:6, 7). To interpret this letter outside of this context leaves Paul to be a most extrordinary hypocrite. Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 19, 2005 23:05:15 GMT -8
Good point.
It is amazing how Christianity conveniently glosses over passage like these.
Shalom brother,
Reuel
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Post by Rick on Mar 31, 2005 19:28:11 GMT -8
Mat 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Perushim, hypocrites! For you are like whitened tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Mat 24:4 Yeshua answered them, "Be careful that no one leads you astray. 1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the scholar of this world? Hasn't God made foolish the wisdom of this world? Act 20:30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the talmidim after them. Jer 36:23 It happened, when Yehudi had read three or four leaves, that [the king] cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was in the brazier, until all the scroll was consumed in the fire that was in the brazier.Luk 12:2 But there is nothing covered up, that will not be revealed, nor hidden, that will not be known. "It was never G-d's intent that an elite corps of specialists would be the sole proprieters of biblical truth...The saints to whom this faith has been delivered to guard and disseminate are not a special class...Uncritical acceptance of whatever Christian leaders teach...is the seeds of apostasy" Dave Hunt: Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, p.73 "It is amazing how Christianity conveniently glosses over passage like these" Watch 5 min. of the Trinity Broadcasting Network  (more than that can cause a voilent reaction), and you can see the sorry state of the "popular Christian culture". "The answer is NO, they cannot. You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in a false truth and still be saved." Pro 29:18 Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; but one who keeps the law is blessed. Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you may be no Kohen to me. Because you have forgotten your God's law, I will also forget your children.  People are lazy, they believe what they are told, they don't "dilligently search the scriptures to see if these things are so" They follow "Blind guides" and do not know it leads straight to Hell. They don't want to know. Mat 7:13 "Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. Mat 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it. Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. If the love of Yeshua is in us, we ALL who know, must tell the truth to all who will listen. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 2, 2005 19:48:25 GMT -8
Amein v'amein achi
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 2, 2005 21:26:04 GMT -8
Very true rej1s.
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Post by Rick on Apr 5, 2005 17:50:59 GMT -8
thanx.
Rick
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Post by vegangirl on Apr 7, 2008 11:33:59 GMT -8
OH wow.. So u are saying that the Holy bible is not true and the is?  Listen very close!! Prove it? I don't believe in the Trinity! I do believe in ONE GOD My God is Jesus.. It says In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. From this alone tells us that God is ONE! I believe the Bible to be the only word of God because theres so much proof! sorry!! So if any one wants to give me proof and i will listen and I will give them proof and they should want to listen also.. |
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Post by jewishjediguy on Apr 7, 2008 22:11:45 GMT -8
OH wow.. So u are saying that the Holy bible is not true and the is? Shalom Veggie Girl  i don't think the issue is whether the bible is false and the alone is true. anyone who professes the observance and adherence of will tell you that the whole of scripture is and not just the first five books. the first five books are merely the written record of the itself coming into the world. the issue is the perception of what these scriptures are teaching. one perceives them to say one thing, and another, another. Rick pointed out: "Watch 5 min. of the Trinity Broadcasting Network (more than that can cause a violent* reaction), and you can see the sorry state of the "popular Christian culture"." (*Spelling Correction Mine) Listen very close!! Prove it? I don't believe in the Trinity! I do believe in ONE GOD My God is Jesus.. It says In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. From this alone tells us that God is ONE! I believe the Bible to be the only word of God because theres so much proof! sorry!! i dont think you'll get any argument with any of these statements. although certain semantics may come into play. So if any one wants to give me proof and i will listen and I will give them proof and they should want to listen also.. in my initial reading of this thread i didn't see anything that would contradict the funny-mentals of our mutual Salvation. i know that some can take things to a "literal extreme", even to being judgmental. in the statement (somewhere in the thread) "can someone be saved from a false gospel?" (emph. mine) of course someone can be saved from a false gospel, but not if they're going to maintain that false gospel as truth. "The answer is NO, they cannot.
You can't have it both ways. You can't believe in a false truth and still be saved."i myself have some issues with this answer. this would imply that they would have to know the absolute of every little detail concerning Scripture and God and Yeshua. ummmm... not likely. everyone, and i mean everyone, without exception, holds to a doctrine, teaching, idea, or concept (whether personal or taught) that would be considered contrary to the truth. my proof of this: look at the various denominations. not just in what i call "Regular Army Christianity" but also in Judaism and Messianic Judaism. if we are to know the absolutes of every little detail of the afore mentioned things, then no one, and i mean no one, is saved. now, of course, there are false gospels out there. some very obvious; others, not so obvious. there are false doctrines of devils out there, and also false doctrines of men. we are expected to weigh everything out in the Word of the Living God, from Genesis to Revelation. Yeshua made a statement about a certain someone floating around the land healing the sick, casting out devils and other such wonders. His Disciples whined about it, saying that he didn't follow along with us, so we stopped him. i have a question: WWJD? i actually don't know if anything i said has anything to do with the thread. i just needed to vent lol Yochanan |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 10, 2008 10:48:46 GMT -8
I essentially agree, we all may have slightly different ways we understand the Good News of Messiah, but I wouldn't really equate these slight differences as different false gospels. Although, someone whom is preaching another Yeshua or a lawless Good News certainly preaches a false Gospel. I don't believe such a Gospel will result in salvation because it skips a most important step in becoming born again...repentance from Torahless deeds. The Good News is simple, repent from your wicked deeds (from making it a lifestyle of breaking ), begin to pursue God's ways, trust in Him, and trust in the salvation He provides through His Messiah and the sacrifice that atones for us. "But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Havah (Eve) in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Messiah. For if he who comes preaches another Yeshua, whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you did not receive, or a different Good News, which you did not accept, you put up with that well enough." - 2Corinthians 11:3-4 How did the serpent deceive Hava? He deceived her into committing an act against the of Adonai. The question is...is someone preaching a Good News in the spirit of lawlessness? The spirit that one receives in conjunction with the Good News is in accordance with Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 36:26-27... "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them." Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by jewishjediguy on Apr 11, 2008 22:46:34 GMT -8
I essentially agree, we all may have slightly different ways we understand the Good News of Messiah, but I wouldn't really equate these slight differences as different false gospels. Although, someone whom is preaching another Yeshua or a lawless Good News certainly preaches a false Gospel. I don't believe such a Gospel will result in salvation because it skips a most important step in becoming born again...repentance from Torahless deeds. The Good News is simple, repent from your wicked deeds (from making it a lifestyle of breaking ), begin to pursue God's ways, trust in Him, and trust in the salvation He provides through His Messiah and the sacrifice that atones for us. "But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Havah (Eve) in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Messiah. For if he who comes preaches another Yeshua, whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you did not receive, or a different Good News, which you did not accept, you put up with that well enough." - 2Corinthians 11:3-4 How did the serpent deceive Hava? He deceived her into committing an act against the of Adonai. The question is...is someone preaching a Good News in the spirit of lawlessness? The spirit that one receives in conjunction with the Good News is in accordance with Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 36:26-27... "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them." Shalom chaverim, Reuel and Right On!  thanks for the added imput B'Yeshua, Yochanan |
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is false. 
Amen, the b'Surot Tovot (Good News/Gospel) is according to truth (Tehellim 119:142). We are justified by true faith because it is faith that causes us to walk in the true way. Of course this is all a process of sanctification, but the process will fall in line with Torahism and not paganism. Any other thoughts?
that Galatians is so broadly used in the Christian faith to support antinomianism (lawlessness) when it is not at all what Paul is promoting. It's as if these proponents completely dismiss Galatians 5:17-19. Paul is writing to a specific audience dealing with a specific doctrinal heresy (Galatians 1:6, 7). To interpret this letter outside of this context leaves Paul to be a most extrordinary hypocrite.
thanks for the added imput
