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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 23, 2015 12:38:18 GMT -8
(This quote feature is not working out for me.) 
Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Yeshua came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of G-d descending on Him like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
I don't believe in the trinity the way you described it, and I don't think we should look at it as an all encompassing doctrine as Christians do. However, the last time G-d appeared to man, He came as a Son to do the will of His Father and left us with His Spirit to help us do the same. We have Father, Son, and Spirit and I think it's worth contemplation. Now, it doesn't fit nicely with the truth that G-d is one, but the limitation is our human understanding. Ironically, I think this limitation may be why He gives us the concept.
Mar 23, 2015 12:54:56 GMT -4 jimmie said: "Humans do not consist of three entities a heart, a soul, a mind/might which forms a unity. The heart, soul, and mind all do one thing; think or reason."
Though He is simply telling us to love Him with our whole being, He felt we needed it specified heart, soul, mind/might to accomplish the command. We needed the concept to gain a fuller understanding. I think something similar may be going on here.
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dzm
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Post by dzm on Mar 29, 2015 15:59:09 GMT -8
After doing some pondering, I guess when I said that Trinitarianism seems more logical is because it appears to find its roots throughout the Tanakh. For example, we would need to consider G-d's reference to Himself as:
-- Elohim
-- Echad
-- "Us" [Genesis 1:26 & 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8]
We would also need to think about the:
-- Ruach HaKodesh in Genesis 1:2
-- Son in Psalm 2, Psalm 110
-- Trinity in Isaiah 48:12-17
I think I understand the idea of "pluralism in majesty", however, wouldn't it be more realistic, straightforward, and in harmony with the Tanakh and B'rit Hadashah to find "unity in plurality"?
My concern is for anyone to avoid a trap of falling into a false gospel based on a false Mashiach-- on the other hand, it would seem those who believe in manifestations of HaShem want to prevent others from worshipping idols.
Since these two cannot be true at the same time, it would seem best if everyone has taken [or, takes] the time to search the Scriptures and find the truth.
Overall, I think that a shared concern for people is good--
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Post by alon on Mar 30, 2015 7:27:44 GMT -8
After doing some pondering, I guess when I said that Trinitarianism seems more logical is because it appears to find its roots throughout the Tanakh. For example, we would need to consider G-d's reference to Himself as: -- Elohim -- Echad -- "Us" [Genesis 1:26 & 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8]
Genesis 1:26 (ESV) Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 11:7 (ESV) Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.”
Isaiah 6:8 (ESV) And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”
God does refer to Himself here as a complex Being. However nowhere does He say He is "Three Persons." That is a Catholic view originating in the 4th cen. CE. And while God did manifest Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, He also manifested Himself in many other ways as well- smoke, fire, voices both loud and small, shofar blasts, winds, earth tremblings, and many times as a Messenger (Angel) in the form of a man, and even as a feeling that He is near both corporately and personally. So logically, God is a complex being able to manifest His presence however He sees fit at any given time and in any circumstance.
Genesis 1:2 (ESV) The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Not surprising since Yeshua Himself said:John 4:24 (ESV) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”In fact, the Spirit of God is the clear common denominator in almost all the theophanies, and none of them contradict the working of His Spirit. Even Mary's pregnancy was a work of the Ruach. Isaiah 48:12-17 (ESV)The Lord's Call to Israel
12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.
14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The Lord loves him; he shall perform his purpose on Babylon, and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken and called him; I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.
16 Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.
17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.The only reference to anyone in a plurality are the Hebrew people, who are referred to as Jacob and Israel after the third patriarch.Psalm 2:3 (ESV)“Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.”This was the kings and rulers speaking against God; not God speaking. That is the only "us" I see there. I see no "us" in Psalm 110. However in both God does speak as if there is a Son. The manner in which He refers to His Son in both seems to me to be allegorically. God speaks to us in terms we can understand. He is able to give a part of Himself to act in our physical realm yet still be a Spirit which fills both the physical universe as well as the spiritual universe.2 Chronicles 2:6 (ESV) But who is able to build him a house, since heaven, even highest heaven, cannot contain him? Who am I to build a house for him, except as a place to make offerings before him?Pluralism in majesty is more like the "Royal We" where a sovereign speaks for all his subjects. I'm not familiar with how that term is used religiously, so not sure what to say about it. Unity in plurality however could describe any of several scenarios, including but not limited to a Trinity. I think we all share that concern. However I won't say that our salvation depends on absolutely understanding God. I believe in Yeshua as HaMoshiach; and whether He is part of a Trinity or another manifestation of YHVH here with us I hold it to be absolutely true that Yeshua is God, from eternity to eternity. That I think is what is important. That is the guarantee of my salvation and right standing before God. If on the other hand my salvation depends on an absolute understanding of an infinite God, I am in BIG trouble!Absolutely! Galatians 4:6 (ESV) And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”Interesting that here things are changed up a bit. Rav Shaul, referring to Father, Son and Spirit- yet the Spirit is that of the Son! This is more easily understood if he is speaking in terms of manifestations of God. However if we take the strict Trinitarian view how can the Spirit be that of Yeshua and of the Father and a separate being all at the same time? Like I said, an unfathomable, infinite God any way we look at Him.
Dan C |
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Mar 30, 2015 7:53:05 GMT -8
B”H
In my TaNaKh it says Bereshit Gen 1:2 And the Earth was without form and Void: and darkness was on the face of the deep. And a wind from G-d moved over the surface the water. (The Koren TaNaKh)
As We are very aware of the word Ruach can be translated in different ways Wind, Breath and Spirit.
Trinity is very Pagan. And it come from the doctrines of demons.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 30, 2015 8:34:06 GMT -8
In general, we have to be careful of any view that limits G-d to human understanding. I agree that the Trinitarian view attempts to do this, and is a perversion of G-d's intentions. I also see what Alon is saying about it leaving people distant.
We should feel blessed and humbled by what He gives. In the process of trying to contain G-d to their own intellect, Christians have just caused themselves confusion for the simple fact that He is limitless and cannot be contained.
Father, Son, and Spirit is how a wise and gracious G-d met our human needs while working within our human limitations. We can't know all there is to know about G-d, but we can be grateful for how well He knows us.
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Post by alon on Mar 30, 2015 16:48:13 GMT -8
B”H In my TaNaKh it says Bereshit Gen 1:2 And the Earth was without form and Void: and darkness was on the face of the deep. And a wind from G-d moved over the surface the water. (The Koren TaNaKh) As We are very aware of the word Ruach can be translated in different ways Wind, Breath and Spirit.
While I wouldn't entirely disagree, that statement begs development.
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dzm
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Post by dzm on Apr 17, 2015 5:02:12 GMT -8
Shalom,
Miykhael says what he believes, so he is being honest.
However, the roots of the Trinity are in the Tanakh.
And the fullness of the Trinity is revealed by Yeshua HaMashiach when He says, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Yeshua does not say something like, ". . . in the name of the burning bush, pillar of fire, and smoke upon the mountain."
We all know and understand that HaShem does not give His glory to anyone, as it says in Isaiah 42:8,
"I am HaShem,
that is my name,
and I do not give My glory to another,
nor my praise to idols."
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Post by jimmie on Apr 17, 2015 5:30:21 GMT -8
link The "is not" part of the pitcure is where the "trinity doctrine" goes wrong.
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Post by alon on Apr 17, 2015 9:18:06 GMT -8
... And the fullness of the Trinity is revealed by Yeshua HaMashiach when He says, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
On the other hand, I hope you are not suggesting that the belief that other manifestations of God are lower in stature and belief in them as coequal and coeternal God is idolatry, as this would place you and not us in the classification of an idolater; a believer in more than One God.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Apr 17, 2015 9:35:38 GMT -8
The "is not" part of the pitcure is where the "trinity doctrine" goes wrong.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 17, 2015 14:07:07 GMT -8
At any one time, believers only have a very limited idea of G-d based on how He has previously manifested Himself, and even that is limited by His most recent manifestation. ( At least I personally have a harder time considering G-d in a cloud, a pillar of fire, or smoke.)
He has revealed Himself many ways, yet, G-d is eternal and unchanging. Our human concept is limited by where we are in time, where we are in His unfolding revelation, and our own weak human logic that can't even comprehend "eternal and unchanging".
The point is that we know very little of who He is, and the idea of G-d as One is diminished by a very simplistic and all encompassing view of the Trinity. The Trinity idea seems to often be applied as if Christianity has G-d all summed up and figured out. That is impossible based on what G-d tells us about Himself and our limited human perspective. |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 17, 2015 14:21:01 GMT -8
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dzm
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Post by dzm on Apr 17, 2015 16:21:12 GMT -8
Shalom,
Yeshua Himself created the doctrine of the "Trinity" (even though He did not use this word) by purposely describing what the Tanakh has already said.
Yes, we know that God is "Echad"-- and, at the same time, HaShem uses the same word to define husband and wife.
Sure, mankind is flesh and G-d is Spirit, but we understand that we are made in His image and not His exact being. Therefore, it is no stretch to also understand that G-d the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are individually "Echad".
In looking through the link of manifestations that Alon provided to us [which is a good listing]-- it is difficult to positively identify the "materializations" of G-d in a way that without doubt says, "It is G-d". For one example, in the burning bush, it is a messenger from HaShem that is in the bush and G-d could very easily be sending His voice from Heaven to speak through the bush.
We all know that Yeshua presently sits upon the throne at the right hand of the Father-- it just does not seem possible that we could say a manifestation sits next to G-d (as if He split Himself into two).
And I am sorry about being unclear before-- I wanted to make a note that when G-d uses the word "Us", He is not referring to a manifestation or one of His creations:
**Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
**Isaiah 42:8,
"I am HaShem,
that is my name,
and I do not give My glory to another,
nor my praise to idols."
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Post by alon on Apr 17, 2015 18:13:31 GMT -8
Elizabeth, very good point!
jimmie, I got to the link earlier. I wondered why you linked to all those pictures of the Trinity (and got a little worried for you when I got to those pics of the Matrix and that wrestler gal  ). Yes, I agree that those which say Father, Son and Spirit are not One are absolutely false! They are a Catholic (and some Prods) view of God, and it is idolatry. They've remade God and, as Elizabeth said, packaged Him a little too neatly!
Dan C
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Post by alon on Apr 17, 2015 18:41:55 GMT -8
... Yeshua Himself created the doctrine of the "Trinity" (even though He did not use this word) by purposely describing what the Tanakh has already said. Yes, we know that God is "Echad"-- and, at the same time, HaShem uses the same word to define husband and wife. Sure, mankind is flesh and G-d is Spirit, but we understand that we are made in His image and not His exact being. Therefore, it is no stretch to also understand that G-d the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are individually "Echad".
As for Yeshua sitting at the right hand of God, that is a mystery. I think it probably is speaking allegorically- God is speaking in terms we can understand saying that He knows our trials and problems because not only has He created us and He sees all; but He has experienced life as we do, facing the ultimate test of a cruel and undeserved death, going through it in obedience.
I know, your next question will be "Obedience to who?" To Himself, to that part of Him that was not invested in human form. To the plan of our redemption that was laid down at the foundation of the earth.
Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
). Yes, I agree that those which say Father, Son and Spirit are not One are absolutely false! They are a Catholic (and some Prods) view of God, and it is idolatry. They've remade God and, as Elizabeth said, packaged Him a little too neatly!
