The False Gospel

[alon]

Elizabeth, you can send the study to me by PM if you like. It may be a while before I can get to it though, as I am trying to deal with computer problems someone is having with the site (and that will be an absolute miracle if I can figure out a computer problem). Meanwhile, you can go here for more information on Galations:

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3329/galations-wrong

Most of what I share there is from Rav S teaching, though some is from a book I used to have (and apparently threw out in the last culling of my library, otherwise I'd reference it).

Dan C

[johnd]

I agree wholeheartedly.

King David got the spirit of the commandments and he ate the show bread which only the cohaniym were supposed top eat.

There are other examples.

But I am not here to be a missionary.

I merely point out that faith in Messiah was the overall point of . And by that faith we keep . And any infractions of the commands or laws on our part is dealt with already by that faith. Otherwise we'd be in dire straits trying to carry out the levitical sacrifices since the Temple has not stood in over 1500 years.

Again, I applaud the efforts to try to keep / be observant so long as it is not an obsession or interferes with what actually gets you and keeps you saved. Kosher diet, for example is the best diet you can have (go figure, the Creator knows what is best for us).

Caution noted. However, I really hope it is not something to hide behind when faced with scripture.

If the tradition aligns with scripture then it is biblical.
If not, then it is merely the traditions of men.

[alon]

Mar 12, 2015 20:53:19 GMT -8 johnd said:

I agree wholeheartedly.

King David got the spirit of the commandments and he ate the show bread which only the cohaniym were supposed top eat.

There are other examples.

But I am not here to be a missionary.

I merely point out that faith in Messiah was the overall point of . And by that faith we keep . And any infractions of the commands or laws on our part is dealt with already by that faith. Otherwise we'd be in dire straits trying to carry out the levitical sacrifices since the Temple has not stood in over 1500 years.

Again, I applaud the efforts to try to keep / be observant so long as it is not an obsession or interferes with what actually gets you and keeps you saved. Kosher diet, for example is the best diet you can have (go figure, the Creator knows what is best for us).

Caution noted. However, I really hope it is not something to hide behind when faced with scripture.

If the tradition aligns with scripture then it is biblical.
If not, then it is merely the traditions of men.

Go back through old posts here and read and you'll find I do not hide behind anything. If anything, I am probably a bit too confrontational. I'm a shamaimite. However I make very few redactions or warnings either. And where warnings were issued, as often as not I PM'd the offender and gave them the chance to make things right. You could count either on one hand. However when dealing with an unknown entity, such as a new poster with no introduction, I do watch more closely. Your scriptures were the ones mainC uses to say the cross did away with the . If that was not your intent, I apologize. But you should make yourself clear what the point is, and how those scriptures are relevant.

By the way, yours was not a warning but just a caution. A warning entails my hitting the warning button on the moderator screen and then it is recorded. Since you are new I also give more leeway on such things, so I did not do that. Just FYI.

Dan C

[dzm]

In looking back at Chizuk Emunah's original question: "Can one be saved from a false Gospel that teaches another Yeshua?"

When saying "another Yeshua", it seems most important to describe who Yeshua is?

I have actually been thinking about this question every so often since reading the Book of the Mormon in a hotel last year. Many of the words sounded doctrinal until I looked more closely into this religion and, as a result, did not find the teachings about Yeshua to be truthful.

Looking back, I had a very good friend in High School who was a Latter-day Saint's {LDS} member and, although he was a really "good" guy, it is unpleasant to think that he cannot be saved based on believing a false Yeshua who is not G-d in a Trinitarian understanding.

And it is not just this particular religion, but there are many faiths {Messianic Jewish and Messianic Gentile alike} which cannot enter into G-d's salvation due to man-made beliefs about Yeshua not based on the or Prophets.

I think the question is critically important due to the eternal consequences of being deceived.

[alon]

Mar 19, 2015 20:06:13 GMT -8 dzm said:

In looking back at Chizuk Emunah's original question: "Can one be saved from a false Gospel that teaches another Yeshua?"

When saying "another Yeshua", it seems most important to describe who Yeshua is?

I have actually been thinking about this question every so often since reading the Book of the Mormon in a hotel last year. Many of the words sounded doctrinal until I looked more closely into this religion and, as a result, did not find the teachings about Yeshua to be truthful.

Looking back, I had a very good friend in High School who was a Latter-day Saint's {LDS} member and, although he was a really "good" guy, it is unpleasant to think that he cannot be saved based on believing a false Yeshua who is not G-d in a Trinitarian understanding.

And it is not just this particular religion, but there are many faiths {Messianic Jewish and Messianic Gentile alike} which cannot enter into G-d's salvation due to man-made beliefs about Yeshua not based on the or Prophets.

I think the question is critically important due to the eternal consequences of being deceived.

dzm, while I agree in general with what you say, there are some points which must be addressed:

Messianic Jewish faith- not sure why you listed this without explanation as a false faith on a Messianic forum. However it should be noted that not all who try to fly our banner are in fact Messianic Jewish believers.

Messianic Gentiles- this is an oxymoron. There can be no such thing, since becoming Messianic by definition grafts one to the rootstalk of Israel. The proper term for this would be Christian. Even then I wouldn't go so far as to say no Christians are saved and therefore grafted in as well (they just don't act like it). Many, many are not saved, not grafted in. But many do show the fruits of the Spirit; and to say that for over 1300 yrs. ago when the last Notsarim were killed off by the church no one has been saved would be a monstrous accusation against God. Exactly where that line is that demarcates the saved from the damned is I wouldn't even guess. I will only say that the farther away from the truth, and the farther from one gets, the more trouble you are likely in.

I wholeheartedly agree about the importance of our understanding of who Yeshua is. This is why the enemy went to such great lengths to redefine Him in church doctrine. Trinity- many (most) Messianics do not believe in a "Trinity" per se. And in fact church history holds this view to be more accurate. Dictionary of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie "The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief."

Dan C

[dzm]

Thank you, Alon for writing a response!  Although I'm not sure I quite understand what you are saying {which is always a problem for those with autism}, I already have learned a lot from the discussion on this forum and from doing further research on the web-- this time, it was discovering the Netzarim/Natsarim.

To maybe clarify, with a background of reading literature from the Jews for Jesus organization, I cannot perceive why a Messianic believer {Jew or Gentile} would think they could be saved from their sins unless they believe in Yeshua as One of the Trinity?

[alon]

Mar 20, 2015 19:22:11 GMT -8 dzm said:

Thank you, Alon for writing a response!  Although I'm not sure I quite understand what you are saying {which is always a problem for those with autism}, I already have learned a lot from the discussion on this forum and from doing further research on the web-- this time, it was discovering the Netzarim/Natsarim.

Autism must be difficult to deal with. I know my memory doesn't always work the way it should, and it drives me crazy! Can't imagine what autism must be like.

Notsarim: Act 24:5 (KJV) For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

To maybe clarify, with a background of reading literature from the Jews for Jesus organization, I cannot perceive why a Messianic believer {Jew or Gentile} would think they could be saved from their sins unless they believe in Yeshua as One of the Trinity?

Remember whenever reading someone's literature it is important to consider their theology. Jews for Jesus are dispensationalists; they are mainstream Christianity, even though they are Jewish converts to Christianity. They believe that to accept Jesus a Jew must give up their Jewish faith and become grafted to the rootstalk of the Gentiles. This is a perversion of scripture, as it is we who are supposed to be grafted onto Israel (reference Romans, chapter 11).

Deuteronomy 6:4-15 (KJV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

The Bible never mentions God as a Trinity, or as three separate beings united in perfect harmony of thought and purpose. We are told of many different ways in which God has manifested Himself to us, and there are more than three.

He did manifest himself as Spirit in the creation account as He moved across the face of the earth. That Spirit was given a hint of form when Moses was allowed to see the back of God, for to look upon His "face" would have meant certain death. Later we see the Spirit manifest in the life of Yeshua and at Pentacost.

God appeared as a messenger in the form of a man to Abraham. Later He would come as the Son, joining Himself physically to Israel as God and the man Yeshua- this done by a work of the Spirit at Mary's conception.

He concentrated His entire essence on the Mercy Seat in the Mishkan (Tabernacle) and the Temple, and yet the sages tell us His entire presence could simultaneously not be contained by the universe. Indeed, Colossians 1:17 tells us that all things are held together by Him.

He appeared as smoke and fire as He led the Hebrews out of Egypt, and again on Mt. Sinai. Yet again His Spirit is represented by tongues of fire at Pentecost.

God is spoken of as the Father throughout the Bible, yet the Father is always understood to be Spirit.

In fact, God is manifested many times in many different ways all through the Bible; and the common thread in all these manifestations is the "Spirit" of God. There is only One God, One "Person" of the "Godhead." Yet being God He is able to manifest in ways we can see and/or understand. We may not be able to see His Spirit, but we can feel Him at work and comprehend the concept. We also understand the Father/ Son relationship, and so better grasp the work of Yeshua. But Yeshua Himself said in John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Dan C

Dispensationalism‌ is an evangelical, futurist, Biblical interpretation that understands God to have related to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants in a series of "dispensations," or periods in history.

All dispensationalists hold to a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. Israel is an ethnic nation consisting of Hebrews (Israelites), beginning with Abraham and continuing in existence to the present. The church consists of all saved individuals in this present dispensation—i.e., from the "birth of the Church" in Acts until the time of the Rapture. [from 'THE FREE DICTIONARY by FARLEX"]

[Elizabeth]

I never knew that about Jews for Jesus, but I don't know much about them.

I agree that G-d is beyond our understanding, and the understanding Christians assume they have based on their confining G-d to their idea of trinity is a problem. 

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Is there something I am missing? I am wondering if there is some sort of historical deception/confusion occurring with this verse of which I am unaware.

[alon]

Mar 21, 2015 12:53:35 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

I agree that G-d is beyond our understanding, and the understanding Christians assume they have based on their confining G-d to their idea of trinity is a problem.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Is there something I am missing? I am wondering if there is some sort of historical deception/confusion occurring with this verse of which I am unaware.

It is difficult to say. All the Greek manuscripts we have today apparently have this "Trinitarian" take on the verse. However this doesn't say these are the only manifestations of God, nor that there are in fact three persons to the "Godhead." It may just imply that these are the most important manifestations of God.

There is some speculation that the fourth century historian Eusebius inserted the second part of that verse, or possibly the entire verse to please the Roman Emperor Constantine who was a strong Trinitarian. The problem is that Eusebius, like most of the Roman Bishops of the time was a binarian who himself rejected the ides of the Holy Spirit.

There is no record either biblically or historically that any of the early Apostles ever obeyed this command fully. They went to the nations, and they made disciples. However historical records indicate that up to the 4th cen. CE baptisms followed the same form as Jewish tevilah.

None of the evidence is conclusive, so I take the scripture as it is given. But like I said, this doesn't say that these are the "Three Gods" of the "One Godhead." It just says that these are the three primary manifestations of God; the three most important revelations of who and what He is. This I have no problem with. Interpreting this as "The Trinity" ... we'll ask Him when we get there. Even God could use a good laugh!

Dan C

[alon]

Here, I found an excellent site on the different manifestations of God. It's a bit long (5 pgs.- you have to keep hitting the "Next" button), but very thorough. Written from what appears to be a mainstream viw, this site still does a good job of debunking the only three idea.

halfshekel.com/one/godhead1.html

Dan C

[dzm]

Alon, I think you have made a very good, concise explanation of the belief in Yeshua as a manifestation of God.  I must admit that it is something new to me and will continue to ponder it and its implications.

I also see Elizabeth's question regarding baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  And I would totally agree with Alon that, at a minimum, Yeshua must be elevated above all other manifestations mentioned in the link to halfshekel.com [i.e., a burning bush, cloud, Melchizedek, etc.].

In comparing the two, I still find it more natural and logical to accept the Trinitarian belief because we would have as much, and perhaps more, difficulty explaining many other texts in the Old and New Covenant-- for example,

• "And G-d said, Let Us make man in Our image", or
• the L-rd Yeshua praying to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, or
• the L-rd Yeshua breathing the Ruach HaKodesh upon the eleven disciples.

I think the subject was worth some discussion.  Thank you!!

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for the link.  

The first description in Exodus 33 resonated with me, and so I didn't read much yet.  ( I do look forward to reading over it, though.)

I feel like He is helping us similar as He did with Moses.  He knows we can only handle a little bit, and only in small increments. 

I think there is something to the three in one, but I think Christianity has it backwards.  They think it's a way to wrap their mind around G-d.  It's a way they try to fit Him into their minds. I think it's actually a way He stretches us beyond what our minds can comprehend.

We are told to worship Him in spirit, and we are told to love Him with all our heart, soul, and might. I always struggle with my mind getting in the way.

I think this is a way He helps us overcome our own limitations to approach Him more completely.  It shows us attributes we can relate to while giving us a glimpse of a whole that is far beyond our comprehension. As Messianic, I have found Father, Son and Spirit to be a very humbling perspective.  It gives me a way to better focus on Him, yet I feel He is even bigger.  As a Christian, it seemed to do the exact opposite.  It obscured Him, and was shamefully belittling.

[alon]

Mar 22, 2015 19:32:51 GMT -8 dzm said:

Alon, I think you have made a very good, concise explanation of the belief in Yeshua as a manifestation of God.  I must admit that it is something new to me and will continue to ponder it and its implications.

I also see Elizabeth's question regarding baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  And I would totally agree with Alon that, at a minimum, Yeshua must be elevated above all other manifestations mentioned in the link to halfshekel.com [i.e., a burning bush, cloud, Melchizedek, etc.].

Yeshua is of course the most important manifestation of God; our most vivid example, Rabbi, and our salvation. However it is important we not elevate Yeshua above any other manifestation. All are the same God, and in that sense none is greater than the other.

In comparing the two, I still find it more natural and logical to accept the Trinitarian belief because we would have as much, and perhaps more, difficulty explaining many other texts in the Old and New Covenant-- for example,

• "And G-d said, Let Us make man in Our image", or
• the L-rd Yeshua praying to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, or
• the L-rd Yeshua breathing the Ruach HaKodesh upon the eleven disciples.

I think the subject was worth some discussion.  Thank you!!

Yes, I can understand that. I used to use the same arguments for a Trinity while I was still in Hebrew Roots. And admittedly my arguments now against it are a bit of a stretch. But here goes: God is unfathomable- most can agree on that. And as your scriptural quote affirms, we are made in His image. Do you not hold conversations with yourself? God can do this as well, the difference being when He does it He can actually "get outside His own head," so to speak. He may also have been looking forward to these various manifestations as He said these things.

I don't claim to know much at all about God, just that He IS and what He says is truth. I'll even admit to the possibility of a "Trinity," even though I think it is a very problematic doctrine. But when He says He is "One," I believe Him. And when as Yeshua He says He is Spirit, I believe that. I also believe it when His Word tells me He made Himself manifest to us in so many different ways and at different times. But it is a very difficult thing for us to wrap our heads around the fact of an infinite God. Fortunately, I see no place where it says we have to thoroughly understand God to be saved and to walk with Him. It just says we have to trust Him.

Dan C

[alon]

Mar 22, 2015 19:36:57 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

I think there is something to the three in one, but I think Christianity has it backwards.  They think it's a way to wrap their mind around G-d.  It's a way they try to fit Him into their minds. I think it's actually a way He stretches us beyond what our minds can comprehend.

We are told to worship Him in spirit, and we are told to love Him with all our heart, soul, and might. I always struggle with my mind getting in the way.

I think this is a way He helps us overcome our own limitations to approach Him more completely.  It shows us attributes we can relate to while giving us a glimpse of a whole that is far beyond our comprehension. As Messianic, I have found Father, Son and Spirit to be a very humbling perspective.  It gives me a way to better focus on Him, yet I feel He is even bigger.  As a Christian, it seemed to do the exact opposite.  It obscured Him, and was shamefully belittling.

Last week I was talking with some at the AoG about the difference in how Christians and Jews view God. We (Gentiles in general) tend to see him as distant, somewhat impersonal. They see Him as being part of their community. Yeshua, for example, prayed "Our Father, who art in heaven." I got to thinking (always dangerous ) and I think the Trinitarian view contributes greatly to the impersonal way we view God. Our minds work in pictures, not words, at the most basic level. Words do however evoke pictures. Strung together like individual frames in a movie reel they evoke ideas. So when we say the word "father," we have the idea of a man. But since we can't see our Heavenly Father, in our subconscious I think we must view Him as distant, too far too see.

We have no problem with the idea a spirit can be with us and not be seen. So it is easier to say that we have another being, the Holy Spirit residing within us. The third part of the "Godhead," Yeshua, was of course with us at one time, but now He is with the Father; again distant in both time and place. So it is I think Christianity teaches us that we have a God who is at the same time impersonal, distant, and a God that is close with us. I use the capital "G" out of respect here, however can you see how this view makes God look like He is being brought down to the status of "gods" (small "g")? This view, like Marcionism (God of the Old Testament vs. God of the New), seems to make it easy to cross over into polytheism. It also makes God the Father and Jesus distant, while we have this Holy Spirit who, because no one can actually see Him makes it easy to manipulate our perception of Him, and so control His followers.

I suspect the enemy, if not behind Trinitarianism certainly has used the concept against us well, warping our understanding of God. Or maybe it is just my mind that is warped- I don't know. This is just my thoughts on the matter, and I'm no scholar so take it all for what it is worth.

Dan C

ecit: my wife says I am right- my mind IS warped!

[jimmie]

The Catholic doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold")[1] defines God as three consubstantial persons,[2] expressions, or hypostases:[3] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is
A triple deity (sometimes referred to as threefold, tripled, triplicate, tripartite, triune or triadic, or as a trinity) is a deity associated with the number three. Such deities are common throughout world mythology; the number three has a long history of mythical associations.
Catholics mixed God and paganism and formed the Trinity.
Deut 6: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Matt 6:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Humans do not consist of three entities, a heart, a soul, and mind/might, which forms a unity. The heart, soul and mind all do one thing: think or reason. To split God into three persons makes about as much sense as splitting man into three persons.
When “the angel of the Lord” appeared to Moses in the bush, God does the speaking. Does this not lead one to believe that “the angle of the Lord” is God? The angel of the Lord is not a separate person from God. No more so than “the hand of the Lord” is a separate person from God. Seeing the angel of the Lord is seeing God according to the witness of Manoah. Seeing Jesus is seeing God according to Christ.

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.