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Post by Questor on Oct 1, 2015 4:44:06 GMT -8
I am not asking anyone to explain my salvation, just thinking and trying to finish my own thoughts. Sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable.
Sorry if I misconstrued what you wanted, but feel free to ask (and give me more chances to misinterpret!  )
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Oct 1, 2015 4:48:02 GMT -8
I found another excerpt from the UMJA training series on yashnet which might prove instructive:
This addresses more of the "why" that Yeshua had to die for us.
Their use of the word "faith" (Hebrews 4:2) seems a bit week. Even Strongs, which tends to lean to the Catholic definition and understanding of words, depicts a more stringent understanding of what the Greek "pistis" connotes.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Oct 1, 2015 4:52:14 GMT -8
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Lev 17:11 This verse finally came to my mind in connection with why Yeshua was born a man. I always feel like I am saying what other people already figured out, but I have to circle around things and see them from different angles to really get it. Nothing new to say. It was always G-d that provided the sacrifice, blood, and life. Atonement is forgiveness and redemption is life. I just have a much better understanding of how Yeshua's blood is the source of both, and amazed at how G-d is always the one doing the giving.
I certainly get nowhere unless I ask Abba to do it in me. |
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Post by Questor on Oct 1, 2015 5:05:20 GMT -8
Isaiah 53: 4-12 CJB “In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God. But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises we are healed. We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet ADONAI laid on him the guilt of all of us. Though mistreated, he was submissive - he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb led to be slaughtered, like a sheep silent before its shearers, he did not open his mouth. After forcible arrest and sentencing, he was taken away; and none of his generation protested his being cut off from the land of the living for the crimes of my people, who deserved the punishment themselves. He was given a grave among the wicked; in his death he was with a rich man. Although he had done no violence and had said nothing deceptive, yet it pleased ADONAI to crush him with illness, to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering. If he does, he will see his offspring; and he will prolong his days; and at his hand ADONAI's desire will be accomplished. After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction. "By his knowing [pain and sacrifice], my righteous servant makes many righteous; it is for their sins that he suffers. Therefore I will assign him a share with the great, he will divide the spoil with the mighty, for having exposed himself to death and being counted among the sinners, while actually bearing the sin of many and interceding for the offenders.”
Jews today say this applies to the Jewish people, while Christians say it is a Messianic prophecy. Being the word of God, I’d say it is both. In fact, my view is that the Jews and Israel are living prophecy. God chose to reveal Himself through them, and their survival and return as a nation boldly attests that what God says He will do. At the same time, this prophecy bears a striking, uncanny resemblance to Yeshua. As the thread title says, all of this has not yet been fulfilled. However all that would apply to Moshiach BenYoseph has.
Isaiah 53:2 (ESV)
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
All through this chapter Yeshayahu switches from addressing “you” and “yours,” or specific places and peoples like “Tzion”; and now the prophet speaks of “he” and “him,” a specific person in the masculine singular. I looked in my JPS TNK to double check and this is how they translate the chapter also. Same in my Stone’s TNK. So this passage does speak of a specific person.
The notes in my JPS Bible (TNK) say it was argued that this could have been many people, such as Moshe or another prophet. It was also argued by many sages in “Targum and midrashim” that this speaks of HaMoshiach. They of course think this “unlikely,” but were intellectually honest enough to include it in their notes. (I actually find them quite fair in their presentation of all sides, including the Christian view from time to time- I highly recommend getting a copy).
The point is it is pointless to get bogged down in arguments about who this refers to or what it really means. Know enough to discuss it when it is brought up, but allow the other side their opinion. Only the Ruach can convince someone what He meant by these words.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Oct 1, 2015 5:33:42 GMT -8
I have developed my understanding n defended the  as a whole (ot n nt ) using Daniel 9 n Isaiah 53 to show Jews Yeshua as messiah. Also over 500 fulfilled messianic prophecies. Geological and archaeological discoveries as scientific real proof of Yeshua n bible. Delving further into our Jewish roots I'm finding more questions than I can possibly answer for myself much less others. I have needed an app like this to keep my balances in ck. Ty for your thoughtful n supportive response.
The Greek translations are very exact if you really know Ancient Greek, but very few translators know Hebrew as well, or are Jews.
It is also true that many translations are stretched to fit the translators ideas and mindset...it is always a problem, which is why I prefer translations by those who actually understand the OT Hebrew, and the NT Greek.
I find I read the The Jewish New Testament Commentary a great deal just because it inadvertantly teaches so much about how badly the Greek was translated, and is well backed by quotes from the OT, and consequently is quite a kick to read. Also, Stern did the NT Translation himself into Hebrew, so it has been much criticized and corrected over the years by other scholars, and Stern is still updating the CD version and Hardbound New Editions of the Commentary. |
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azaliah
Junior Member
Warning on post in My First Shabbat
Posts: 50
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Post by azaliah on Oct 1, 2015 10:20:31 GMT -8
You guys are waaaaay above my head, though I suspect a lot of this is from the Talmud (something Hashem has forbidden me to read at the moment, perhaps because I may become an apostate? I don't know but for the present I feel I should avoid it and I only barely studied it in the past). I suppose my question to the Yehudim would be, if Yeshua is not the Mosiach, then who is? Or who will be? Can any of you trace your line to David? I doubt it, a Arab would have an easier time proving they are semitic than most of the Orthodox Jews, seeing as they are many Ashkenazi, which is translated, German? Perhaps the Turkish or Sephardic Jews might, but can anyone really trace his lineage to David in this day? According to one Rabbi, if the Messiah does not fulfill all the old testament ( )prophesies of the Messiah he cannot be the true Messiah, so this man must come from Bethlehem, have a uncorrupted bloodline to David, born of a virgin, BEFORE the destruction of the Second Temple, bear the sins of Yisrael as the suffering servant and die and be resurrected. The two major disqualifies would be the inability to prove a lineage to David, and or being born before the destruction of the Second Temple. So, while I have no way to argue the talmud against an Orthodox Jew, I would digress on the point no matter what either their Messiah has come and gone and they missed Him, or Hashem has abandoned them, their prophecies never came true, if Yeshua was not the Mosiach, then there was never a God of Yisrael, just another religion from a hebrew-supremacist zionist cult. So the Jews, following a religion without a God, like a headless lion, pushes out the pagan arabs from thier homes in Yisrael, to serve at the alter on their own arrogance, stating that this land belongs to them. Really? If you deny Hashem, how can you truly claim to be a Jew? Yisrael, is the promised land of the Jews. What business do you have praying at the wall, built from the hands of the fathers who served a living Hashem, whom you are the betrayer and muderer of? No, if Yisrael belongs to the Jews, it can only be the Jews of The New Jerusalem. |
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
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Post by lou on Oct 1, 2015 14:48:07 GMT -8
I'm a bit to curious not to having every version of bible for my comparative studies. All that you have said Dan i took to heart. I love all yalls thoughts on my journey thru faith. To the thread... Yeshua has fulfilled the prophecy of prince of peace, deliverer, healer, savior, councilor, lover of my soul n everything else in between... shalom
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Torah Lishmah
New Member
Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Oct 15, 2015 1:03:43 GMT -8
It is threads like this that frustrate, and infuriate me to no end. It is chock full of lies (unintentional I'm sure) and gross misrepresentations of Judaism, and the Talmud in particular. At no time in the history of Israel was there a dual Messianic expectation. Meaning, two separate appearances of the same man/Mashiakh with two separate missions. It simply did not exist. If Jews were allowed to express their theology (at any Christian/Messianic forum, not just this one) concerning texts authored by Jews, and written for Jews, it could, and would be demonstrated frequently. 
There is one curiosity, though. I never find anything in the Scriptures that conflicts with my conviction that Yeshua haNotsri was Mashiach ben Yosef, and will be Yeshua ben David, and darned little in the Talmud either. Actually, there is a ton of it. I'll post some in the next few days for you. I assume you are searching for truth, and not a source for imagined proof texts, which is all the craze in MJ circles. Am I correct in assuming that?
Shalom
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Post by alon on Oct 15, 2015 18:56:43 GMT -8
Moderator note: I'll allow discussion on this because there is interest (including me). However we will have to be careful not to violate forum rules, such as teaching against the deity of Yeshua. Clearing up misconceptions concerning Talmud is a good thing. However when those teachings come against the SoF or the rules I'll have to step in.
We all need to be cognizant of the fact that any Jewish poster trying to answer our queries is severely hamstrung in the conversation. Don't press in where they have to back off due to rules. And no victory laps. We are about increasing knowledge and understanding, not "winning." Everyone wins when one person learns a truth.
This is just a heads up to keep us all honest.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Oct 15, 2015 19:53:58 GMT -8
Questor: we view the Talmud as commentary. Some of it is very good commentary, but still it is commentary. The Talmud also disagrees with itself, so I am betting that someone who is familiar with Talmud can find something that disagrees, saying there is only one Messiah coming one time. So I wouldn't be too absolute in your thinking there.
There is a real danger that we can sit in this controlled environment, where teaching against Yeshua is not permitted and where no one is particularly that familiar with Talmud; and we can come up with false ideas, perpetuating and reinforcing our own ignorance.
Commentators disagree all the time. So walk carefully here, lest you get hit with the Jewish version of an IED- knowledge, just blowin' up all over you!
The examples already given say what they say. But this was a hot topic, so more than one Rabbi commented on it. And my guess is there was a lot of disagreement.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Oct 16, 2015 1:36:53 GMT -8
Very true...the expectation was for two Messiahs...Yeshua ben Yosef, and Yeshua ben David.
There is one curiosity, though. I never find anything in the Scriptures that conflicts with my conviction that Yeshua haNotsri was Mashiach ben Yosef, and will be Yeshua ben David, and darned little in the Talmud either. Actually, there is a ton of it. I'll post some in the next few days for you. I assume you are searching for truth, and not a source for imagined proof texts, which is all the craze in MJ circles. Am I correct in assuming that?
Shalom
I said "very true" to the point that you seemed to be making in your first statement. "At no time in the history of Israel was there a dual Messianic expectation." As one man, fulfilling two prophecies, none of the various Rabbi's had conceived of that, it is true...it does not mean it could not happen, which was my point. The Rabbi's have variously discussed up to four different possible Messiahs.
As for the second point, I was speaking of the Tanakh and the Talmud, not the Apostolic Writings, as a Rabbinical Jew would not usually consider them Scriptures. I consider the Apostolic Writings a vibrant, truthful account by several witnesses to Yeshua's death, and resurrection, establishing the reason for all things pertaining to the 1st Century belief about Yeshua haNotsri as Mashiach among many of the Pharisees of the school of Hillel. As you know, one only needs two witnesses to establish a thing, and even when badly translated, and heavily redacted by the Christian Church, the Apostolic Writings proclaim many witnesses who died painfully for that witness.
The fact that so many Jews believed in Yeshua as Mashiach long after he died, when it was deadly to them to say so in Judea or elsewhere, whether among Jews or Romans, is a very valuable witness in my opinion.
No one is speaking an untruth when they speak of the possibility of two Messiahs, for surely the Rabbi's and Sages are not liars, and they have discussed both Messiah ben Yoseph and Messiah Ben David. I do not know if they have ever discussed the possibility of one man fulfilling both roles. The Talmud has many discussions of the Messiah's that they have been able to discuss in terms of the Tanakh, and not the Apostolic Writings.
In regards to seeking the truth...it is given plainly in the Tanakh that YHVH is G-d. He may do as He likes in regard to the fulfillment of prophecy, which He has given for our guidance.
As to G-d's dealings with Israel because of Yeshua haNotsri, who I believe is G-d's Messiah Ben Yoseph, and who I believe will return in power as Yeshua Ben David, I take the confirmation of the Prophecy in Daniel 9:24-26 as proof that Yeshua ha Notsri was the anointed one who would be cut off. Yeshua haNotsri has fulfilled that prophecy along with many others.
I have attached my statements as to the proof of Daniel's prophecy below, and the list of references to the various opinions about Mashiach in Jewish Thought and the Talmud below that.
Counting the Days of Messiah
שָׁבֻעִ֨ים שִׁבְעִ֜ים נֶחְתַּ֥ךְ עַֽל־עַמְּךָ֣ ׀ וְעַל־עִ֣יר קָדְשֶׁ֗ךָ לְכַלֵּ֨א הַפֶּ֜שַׁע [וּלַחְתֹּם כ] (וּלְהָתֵ֤ם ק) [חַטָּאֹות כ] (חַטָּאת֙ ק) וּלְכַפֵּ֣ר עָוֹ֔ן וּלְהָבִ֖יא צֶ֣דֶק עֹֽלָמִ֑ים וְלַחְתֹּם֙ חָזֹ֣ון וְנָבִ֔יא וְלִמְשֹׁ֖חַ קֹ֥דֶשׁ קָֽדָשִֽׁים׃ וְתֵדַ֨ע וְתַשְׂכֵּ֜ל מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙ וְלִבְנֹ֤ות יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֙ם֙ עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם תָּשׁוּב֙ וְנִבְנְתָה֙ רְחֹ֣וב וְחָר֔וּץ וּבְצֹ֖וק הָעִתִּֽים׃ וְאַחֲרֵ֤י הַשָּׁבֻעִים֙ שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֔יִם יִכָּרֵ֥ת מָשִׁ֖יחַ וְאֵ֣ין לֹ֑ו וְהָעִ֨יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד הַבָּא֙ וְקִצֹּ֣ו בַשֶּׁ֔טֶף וְעַד֙ קֵ֣ץ מִלְחָמָ֔ה נֶחֱרֶ֖צֶת שֹׁמֵמֹֽות׃
Gabriel said in Daniel 9:24-26 that the Anointed one would be cut off prior to the Sanctuary being destroyed, which it was in AD 70, from the time the order to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem was given would be 69 weeks of years (483 years per the Prophecy). To find the actual number of days and months in a prophetic year, one need only look at Daniel 12:12, where 1/2 of a 7 year period is equated to both 42 months, and 1260 days, marking out the fact that Daniel was being told things by Gabriel in accordance with a 360 day Prophetic year.
Working with whole Prophetic Years versus standard Julian and Gregorian Calendar years we can multiply 483 years of 360 days, and we then can calculate a total of 173,880 actual days for that time period.
Dividing 173,880 by 365.25 days per Solar Calendar year gives us 476 Solar Calendar years. Going "back in time" on the Convert-a-Date computer calendar calculator, we are able to establish that the date of the "going out of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem" was 5 Nisan, 4205 Hebrew Calendar / March 29, 445 BC Julian Calendar/March 30, 445 Gregorian Calendar.
Type in March 30, AD 30 at 0:00 hour on the Gregorian calendar line at the top and see for yourself.
(http://www.calendarhome.com/calculate/convert-a-date/)
In Nehemiah 2:1 we see the decree to rebuild, issued in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes, (about 445 B.C.) Messiah comes 483 Prophetic Years of 12 thirty day lunar months after the decree to rebuild is issued [Calculated by adding 7 weeks (49 years) + 62 weeks (434 years) = 69 weeks (483 years)]. Please recall that we are talking about 483 stated years in the prophecy, not on the calendar.
Artaxerxes Longimanus ascended to the throne of the Medo-Persian empire in July 465 B.C. (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1990 ed.). The twentieth year of his reign would have begun in July 446 B.C. The decree to rebuild Jerusalem occurred approximately nine months later in the month of Nisan (March/April) of 445 BC on the Julian and Gregorian calendars. By Hebrew tradition when the day of the month is not specifically stated (as in the Artaxerxes decree), it is assumed to be the first day of that month. We can, however, find out the exact day it must have been given by following the information in the prophecy specifically.
Let's take the dates I have given for the beginning and end of the prophecy and check them with this piece of data.
We not only have a specific month and year to work with for a beginning of the "70 weeks of years" prophecy (Nisan 445 BC), but we have an exact date for the fulfillment of the prophecy... Shabbat haGadolim on Nisan 10, 3790 Hebrew Calendar/ April 1, AD 30 Julian Calendar/ March 30, AD 30 Gregorian Calendar, when Yeshua haNotsri rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey, four days before he was executed on Erev Passover of that year, which was what Westerners call Wednesday evening, exactly as per the requirements in Levitical Law for the sacrifice of a lamb on Pesach. By the way, the only reason that Yeshua rode a colt of a donkey, a 'foal' of a donkey' into Jerusalem was because it was Shabbat, and only an annointed King of the Jews was not breaking any laws by doing so. There is no other reason to mention Yeshua riding a colt of a donkey unless it was Shabbat, and Yeshua was claiming to be an Annointed one. By Rabbinical rules, only the annointed king could ride a colt that had never been worked on Shabbat. It does, however, mark clearly which day Yeshua rode into Jerusalem, and establishes one of two dates...AD 28, and AD 30 in which Nisan 10 was on a Shabbat.
John 12:14-15 (CJB)
14 After finding a donkey colt, Yeshua mounted it, just as the Tanakh says —
15 “Daughter of Tziyon, don’t be afraid! Look! your King is coming, sitting on a donkey’s colt.” )
Thus, we can calculate to the day in Nisan when Artaxerxes issued the decree...Thursday, the 5th of Nisan of the year 4205 Hebrew Calendar; March 29, 445 B.C. Julian calendar; March 30, 445 BC on the Gregorian calendar. The date landing on the 5th of Nisan in 4205 Hebrew/445BCE Julian Calendar /445 BCE Gregorian Calendar nails the decree to the calculation of a 360 day lunar prophetic calendar. Exactly 173,880 days later, Yeshua haNotsri was crucified by the Romans at the insistence of a small group of Jews among the Temple Hierarchy.Please note the date…3/30/30, in Hebraic gematria is 3/3/3…3 sets of 3, signifying completeness and stability to the 3rd power…Nifty planning by Abba, particularly when you realize that the Gregorian Calendar wasn’t adopted until February 1582 AD.
The Gematria of 3/30/30 establishes which of two dates, AD 28 and AD 30 was the year Yeshua actually was crucified on, which also fits exactly with Daniel's Prophecy, and the month and year we know the decree was sent out by Artaxerxes.
Yeshua haNotsri was 'cut off' right on time, and the remainder of everything else written in the Tanakh about Mashiach actually being Yeshua haNotsri suddenly is more than just 'possible.' It becomes fact.
[/b] Notes on Messiach in Jewish thought in the Talmud:
In Jewish eschatology, the term mashiach, or "Messiah", came to refer to a future Jewish King from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age.[2][3][4] The Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah", or, in Hebrew, מלך משיח (melekh mashiach), and, in Aramaic, malka meshiḥa.[5]
Orthodox views have generally held that the Messiah will be descended from his father through the line of King David,[6] and will gather the Jews back into the Land of Israel, usher in an era of peace, build the Third Temple, father a male heir, re-institute the Sanhedrin, and so on. Jewish tradition alludes to two redeemers, both of whom are called mashiach and are involved in ushering in the Messianic age: Mashiach ben David; and Mashiach ben Yosef. In general, the term Messiah unqualified refers to Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David).[2][3]
The Talmud extensively discusses the coming of the Messiah (Sanhedrin 98a–99a, et al.) and describes a period of freedom and peace, which will be the time of ultimate goodness for the Jews and for all humankind.
Tractate Sanhedrin contains a long discussion of the events leading to the coming of the Messiah, for example:
R. Johanan said: When you see a generation ever dwindling, hope for him [the Messiah], as it is written, "And the afflicted people thou wilt save."[II Samuel 22:28] R. Johanan said: When thou seest a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await him, as it is written, "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him;" which is followed by, "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion."
R. Johanan also said: The son of David will come only in a generation that is either altogether righteous or altogether wicked. in a generation that is altogether righteous, — as it is written, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever." Or altogether wicked, — as it is written, "And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor;" and it is [elsewhere] written, "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it."[7]
The Two-Messiah Theory
When one studies rabbinic views of the Messiah one finds something very interesting. Many ancient rabbis spoke of two Messiahs, one who was the "Son of David" and another who was the "Son of Joseph." Though one can find the sufferings of Messiah attributed to the sufferings of the Davidic Messiah in many rabbinic writings, often a second Messiah is posited, the "Son of Joseph" or "Son of Ephraim," who is the one who suffers while the Davidic Messiah conquers. The rabbis struggled with Biblical portraits of a suffering Messiah, as found in Isaiah 53 and other places, and portraits of a conquering Messiah, also found in the Hebrew Bible. They posited two Messiahs, but could it not also be reasonable to believe there is just one Messiah but two aspects of his mission, a suffering aspect and a conquering aspect?
The eminent scholar Raphael Patai, who "taught Hebrew at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem" and served as Professor of Anthropology at Dropsie University,1 said this of the two-messiah theory:
"When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah as Redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic Age. The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: one of them, called Messiah ben Joseph, was to raise the armies of Israel against their enemies, and, after many victories and miracles, would fall victim Gog and Magog. The other, Messiah ben David, will come after him (in some legends will bring him back to life, which psychologically hints at the identity of the two), and will lead Israel to the ultimate victory, the triumph, and the Messianic era of bliss."2
1. Patai, Raphael, The Messiah Texts, Avon Books, © 1979, p. vii
2. Ibid., p. 166
(c) 1997 Fred Klett
Messiah in Rabbinic Thought
In rabbinic thought, the Messiah is the king who will redeem and rule Israel at the climax of human history and the instrument by which the kingdom of God will be established. While the Bible stresses the nature of the age called the "end of days," the rabbis focus as well on the person of their regent, who gives the messianic age (yemot ha-mashi'aḥ) its very name. "Messiah" (Mashi'aḥ) means "anointed" and in the Bible can refer either to a king or a priest. The aggadah restricts the term to the eschatological king, who is also called malka meshiḥa ("king messiah") in the Targums, ben David ("son of David"), and mashi'aḥ ben David ("Messiah, son of David"). The Messiah was expected to attain for Israel the idyllic blessings of the prophets; he was to defeat the enemies of Israel, restore the people to the Land, reconcile them with God, and introduce a period of spiritual and physical bliss. He was to be prophet, warrior, judge, king, and teacher of .
A secondary messianic figure is the Messiah, son of (i.e., of the tribe of) Joseph (or Ephraim), whose coming precedes that of the Messiah, son of David, and who will die in combat with the enemies of God and Israel. Though some (e.g., Torrey, Segal) claim that this figure is described in pre-Christian apocalyptic and apocryphal works, most scholars note that the first unambiguous mentions of this doctrine occur in tannaitic passages of uncertain date (Suk. 52a) and in the Targums (Pseudo-Jon., Ex. 40:11; Pesh., Song 4:5). The genetic function of the doctrine is similarly unclear: Messiah ben Joseph has been seen as the symbolic embodiment of the reunification with the ten tribes of Israel, as the Samaritan Messiah, and as a figure whose martial character and death testify to the impact of the abortive revolt under Bar *Kokhba upon the Jewish imagination.
There are a number of developmental accounts of the messianic idea. Klausner argues that the nationalist-naturalist base of the idea was "spiritualized" after the political and military debacle of the Bar Kokhba revolt; Mowinckel claims virtually the same results due to the acceptance of apocalyptic and spiritualizing elements. It is true, on the whole, that the later Midrash is more extravagant and inventive than the earlier sources in the elaboration of many messianic motifs; the relative sobriety of the earlier sources contrasts markedly with the portrait drawn in the apocalyptic literature. The earliest sources speak little of messianic origins. Subsequently there is the belief that he was born at Beth-Lehem (cf. Micah 5:1) or Jerusalem on the day of the Temple's destruction. He is then hidden – either in Rome or (in the later Midrash) in heaven, where he pines over the agony of people and his own impotence – to come forth at the time of the Redemption. Some have him present at the creation of the world; for some the "name" (i.e., concept) of the Messiah existed before creation; in yet others (assumed late), the Messiah himself exists before the world (PR 36:161).
The prophetic books do not all assume a personal messiah, nor do they identify him. The rabbis agree he is of Davidic lineage (based on Hos. 3:5 and Jer. 30:9), nor is this idea necessarily post-Bar Kokhba. Some expected a resurrected David, and others a messiah named David. Hezekiah, king of Judah, was a potential messiah: Johanan b. Zakkai announced the "coming" of Hezekiah in what some take to be a messianically oriented deathbed declaration. The name Menahem b. Hezekiah, which may refer to an anti-Roman patriot rebel or may simply be symbolic of "comfort," is also found. Various amoraim derive the name of the Messiah from the names of their masters; there is also a puzzling identification of the Messiah and Judah *ha-Nasi (Sanh. 98b). The messianic "name" is sometimes meant descriptively, as when Yose ha-Gelili said that the Messiah's name is Shalom ("peace"). The early sources do not mention a "suffering Messiah." In the Targum to Isaiah 53:3–6 suffering is the historical lot of the people, who are reconciled to God by the prayers of Messiah; the toils of Messiah are those of constructive achievement. Third-century sources speak of a suffering Messiah, or a leprous Messiah; still later, his suffering atones for Israel (Sanh. 98b; PR 37:162b). The vicarious atonement of all righteous for the wicked is a general aggadic theme, however.
The Messiah is generally assumed to be man, though writ large. As such, he can come either riding a donkey, in subdued fashion (cf. Zech. 9:9), or triumphantly riding the clouds (Dan. 7:13). That the Messiah is fully human is dramatically shown by Akiva's knowledgement of the rebel leader, Bar Kokhba, as the Messiah. (Yet Akiva also declared that the Messiah would occupy a throne alongside God). One talmudic source does apparently attribute immortality to Messiah (Suk. 52a), and the Midrash (mostly later) singles him out among the immortals of Paradise. The Messiah does not displace either God or in rabbinic thought. Thus, Hillel (fourth century) can deny the coming of Messiah (for which he is rebuked), though he doubtless expected Israel's redemption. So too, the Midrash can declare that the ultimate author of redemption is not Messiah but God, and His kingship is stressed in the liturgy as well (Mid. Ps. to 31:1; 36:1; 107:1).
[Gerald J. Blidstein]
In the Jerusalem Talmud Brachot 2:4, 5a an Arab tells a Jew that the messiah is born. His father’s name is Hezekiah and he will be named Menahem. He is not referred to as the Messiah ben Joseph. However some have linked this passage to Messiah ben Joseph. Selling his cow and plough he buys some swaddling cloth and travels from town to town. He travels to Bethlehem where the child is born. All the women are buying their children clothing except Menahem’s mother. She says her son is an enemy of Israel because he is born on the day the second temple was destroyed. He tells her that if she does not have money today she can pay later. He says that the child is surely the messiah who will rebuild the temple. When he returns she tells him that Menahem has been carried by a divine wind up to heaven. He will later return as Israel’s messiah.[15][16]: 24, 122
In the Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b Menahem ben Hezekiah is also mentioned along with a list of other names of the messiah suggested by different rabbis. Again he is not referred to directly as the Messiah ben Joseph. Menahem’s name translates as “the comforter”. The Rabbis also called the messiah the leper scholar, using a pun related to a disciple of Rabbi Judah haNasi who was smitten by leper. The passage states that he has borne our grief and carried our sorrows. Yet we esteemed him a leper smitten by god.[6][17]
Babylonian Talmud Sukkah 52a records of a dispute between Rabbi Dosa ben Harkinas and other unnamed rabbis. Rabbi Dosa takes Zechariah 12:10 to apply to the mourning for Messiah ben Joseph, while the rabbis think the mourning is for the evil inclination. The talmudic redactor sides with Rabbi Dosa: the mourning is for Messiah ben Joseph. (Mourning the Evil Inclination, he adds, would be absurd.) It then speaks of how Ben Joseph's death frightens Messiah ben David, so that he urgently prays for his life to be spared.[8]: 79–83
The Jerusalem Talmud Sukkah 5:2 also mentions Messiah ben Joseph.[8]: 90
Babylonian Talmud Sukkah 52b presents the Four Craftsmen. Each may have a role to play in the ushering in the messianic age they are listed as Elijah, Messiah ben David, Righteous Priest and Messiah ben Joseph.[2][8]: 84
The Talmud uses the Hebrew ben rather than the Aramaic bar when giving the linage of these messiahs, suggesting a date before 200 CE. Other parts of the passage are Aramaic confusing the matter.[8]: 84 The similarity between 4Q175 and the Four Craftsman suggest that the Messiah ben Joseph probably existed in some form by the early 1st century BCE.[8]: 87–89
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Post by Questor on Oct 16, 2015 13:19:00 GMT -8
Questor: we view the Talmud as commentary. Some of it is very good commentary, but still it is commentary. The Talmud also disagrees with itself, so I am betting that someone who is familiar with Talmud can find something that disagrees, saying there is only one Messiah coming one time. So I wouldn't be too absolute in your thinking there.
There is a real danger that we can sit in this controlled environment, where teaching against Yeshua is not permitted and where no one is particularly that familiar with Talmud; and we can come up with false ideas, perpetuating and reinforcing our own ignorance.
Commentators disagree all the time. So walk carefully here, lest you get hit with the Jewish version of an IED- knowledge, just blowin' up all over you!
The examples already given say what they say. But this was a hot topic, so more than one Rabbi commented on it. And my guess is there was a lot of disagreement.
Dan C
I have been establishing factual information as to Mashiach, and that is in Daniel 9:24-26. Add the Apostolic Writings, and all the prophecies in the Tanakh, and you have a heavy weight of evidence for Yeshua haNotsri as both Messiach Ben Yoseph, and Mashiach Ben David. I do not have to explain what I see from my emotions, and I am trying not to do so.
Rabbinical Jews have been taught to be rather attorney-like in their view of Yeshua...discounting point by point what they see as error, rather than looking at the whole. I am seeking to give a reason to consider Yeshua seriously as both Mashiach ben Yosef, and the coming Mashiach ben David, starting from a single prophecy that is crucial to Yeshua's execution on a stake, and then going to the witnesses, and finally to the other prophecies that describe everything about Yeshua.
I have been practicing not being confrontative! |
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as a whole (ot n nt ) using Daniel 9 n Isaiah 53 to show Jews Yeshua as messiah. Also over 500 fulfilled messianic prophecies. Geological and archaeological discoveries as scientific real proof of Yeshua n bible. Delving further into our Jewish roots I'm finding more questions than I can possibly answer for myself much less others. I have needed an app like this to keep my balances in ck. Ty for your thoughtful n supportive response. 
