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Post by alon on Sept 1, 2015 15:57:18 GMT -8
I am not asking anyone to explain my salvation, just thinking and trying to finish my own thoughts. Sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable.
Sorry if I misconstrued what you wanted, but feel free to ask (and give me more chances to misinterpret!  )
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 2, 2015 11:42:55 GMT -8
I found another excerpt from the UMJA training series on yashnet which might prove instructive:
This addresses more of the "why" that Yeshua had to die for us.
Their use of the word "faith" (Hebrews 4:2) seems a bit week. Even Strongs, which tends to lean to the Catholic definition and understanding of words, depicts a more stringent understanding of what the Greek "pistis" connotes.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 2, 2015 16:26:07 GMT -8
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Lev 17:11
This verse finally came to my mind in connection with why Yeshua was born a man. I always feel like I am saying what other people already figured out, but I have to circle around things and see them from different angles to really get it.
Nothing new to say. It was always G-d that provided the sacrifice, blood, and life. Atonement is forgiveness and redemption is life. I just have a much better understanding of how Yeshua's blood is the source of both, and amazed at how G-d is always the one doing the giving.
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Post by jimmie on Sept 3, 2015 5:37:21 GMT -8
Their use of the word "faith" (Hebrews 4:2) seems a bit week. Even Strongs, which tends to lean to the Catholic definition and understanding of words, depicts a more stringent understanding of what the Greek "pistis" connotes.
Dan C[/quote] Faith from Latin "to trust" 1. The confident belief in the truth value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: 3.Belief and trust in God, religious conviction. Their use of the word "faith" seems reasonable to me. |
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Post by alon on Sept 3, 2015 6:38:07 GMT -8
... Faith from Latin "to trust" ...
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 4, 2015 22:51:31 GMT -8
Isaiah 53: 4-12 CJB “In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God. But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises we are healed. We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet ADONAI laid on him the guilt of all of us. Though mistreated, he was submissive - he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb led to be slaughtered, like a sheep silent before its shearers, he did not open his mouth. After forcible arrest and sentencing, he was taken away; and none of his generation protested his being cut off from the land of the living for the crimes of my people, who deserved the punishment themselves. He was given a grave among the wicked; in his death he was with a rich man. Although he had done no violence and had said nothing deceptive, yet it pleased ADONAI to crush him with illness, to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering. If he does, he will see his offspring; and he will prolong his days; and at his hand ADONAI's desire will be accomplished. After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction. "By his knowing [pain and sacrifice], my righteous servant makes many righteous; it is for their sins that he suffers. Therefore I will assign him a share with the great, he will divide the spoil with the mighty, for having exposed himself to death and being counted among the sinners, while actually bearing the sin of many and interceding for the offenders.”
Jews today say this applies to the Jewish people, while Christians say it is a Messianic prophecy. Being the word of God, I’d say it is both. In fact, my view is that the Jews and Israel are living prophecy. God chose to reveal Himself through them, and their survival and return as a nation boldly attests that what God says He will do. At the same time, this prophecy bears a striking, uncanny resemblance to Yeshua. As the thread title says, all of this has not yet been fulfilled. However all that would apply to Moshiach BenYoseph has.
Isaiah 53:2 (ESV)
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
All through this chapter Yeshayahu switches from addressing “you” and “yours,” or specific places and peoples like “Tzion”; and now the prophet speaks of “he” and “him,” a specific person in the masculine singular. I looked in my JPS TNK to double check and this is how they translate the chapter also. Same in my Stone’s TNK. So this passage does speak of a specific person.
The notes in my JPS Bible (TNK) say it was argued that this could have been many people, such as Moshe or another prophet. It was also argued by many sages in “Targum and midrashim” that this speaks of HaMoshiach. They of course think this “unlikely,” but were intellectually honest enough to include it in their notes. (I actually find them quite fair in their presentation of all sides, including the Christian view from time to time- I highly recommend getting a copy).
The point is it is pointless to get bogged down in arguments about who this refers to or what it really means. Know enough to discuss it when it is brought up, but allow the other side their opinion. Only the Ruach can convince someone what He meant by these words.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 5, 2015 7:10:24 GMT -8
It has been very helpful for me. The spirit gives faith/trust  beyond understanding, but I find I grow more in faith as I challenge my understanding. I kind of argue with myself as I think about things. I have always found Yeshua at the end of my questioning. I am lead by the spirit, so I always will. I just want to have confidence in what I say I believe. So as far as I am concerned; not pointless at all. |
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Post by alon on Sept 5, 2015 16:08:27 GMT -8
... Faith from Latin "to trust" ...
Dan C
"You may hear theological arguments of various doctrinal orientations. They may sound compelling and convincing, but they all require your goodwill to accept them. This 'goodwill' is usually dressed up with a more palatable word called 'faith.' Faith on its own is an exalted gift- if it leads to the truth. Do you dare guess how many people around the globe are misled at this very moment into doom- just by demanding their faith?"
Dr. Danny Ben-Gigi of www.hebrewworld.com is the former director of Hebrew programs at Arizona State University, a widely published author, including "The Hebrew English Transliterated Bible," and a huge proponent of Christians learning of their "Hebrew roots" (which I disagree with, but nobodies' perfect He agrees with me on 'faith' though, so I'll give him a pass on this).
Dan (just all full of himself being condescending to Doctors now  ) C
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Torah Lishmah
New Member
Study of Torah for its own sake
Posts: 37
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Sept 22, 2015 4:23:55 GMT -8
It is threads like this that frustrate, and infuriate me to no end. It is chock full of lies (unintentional I'm sure) and gross misrepresentations of Judaism, and the Talmud in particular. At no time in the history of Israel was there a dual Messianic expectation. Meaning, two separate appearances of the same man/Mashiakh with two separate missions. It simply did not exist. If Jews were allowed to express their theology (at any Christian/Messianic forum, not just this one) concerning texts authored by Jews, and written for Jews, it could, and would be demonstrated frequently. 
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 22, 2015 4:44:12 GMT -8
I put people in an awkward position; members and moderator. Sorry, just didnt think this through on my end. I will research on my own, and do a better job of remembering restrictions this form of conversation naturally imposes.
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Post by alon on Sept 30, 2015 11:29:17 GMT -8
I put people in an awkward position; members and moderator. Sorry, just didnt think this through on my end. I will research on my own, and do a better job of remembering restrictions this form of conversation naturally imposes.
Dan C |
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
Posts: 89 
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Post by lou on Sept 30, 2015 12:50:07 GMT -8
I must say I've been listening to a lot of Jewish Rabbis lately n they are starting to make sense. My only personal real evidence is the life change n miracles I've seen in the name of Jesus. Seems the Nt does contradict the  on occasion. I'm at a loss. ( no man can die for another's sins) (unfulfilled prophecy) such as peace on earth n temple rebuild. Ik Christians say it a,personal peace n the temple is His body. I've just seen so many mistranslations among churches to be a bit Leary. |
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Post by alon on Sept 30, 2015 13:12:57 GMT -8
I must say I've been listening to a lot of Jewish Rabbis lately n they are starting to make sense. My only personal real evidence is the life change n miracles I've seen in the name of Jesus. Seems the Nt does contradict the on occasion. I'm at a loss. ( no man can die for another's sins) (unfulfilled prophecy) such as peace on earth n temple rebuild. Ik Christians say it a,personal peace n the temple is His body. I've just seen so many mistranslations among churches to be a bit Leary.
Many of the issues in misunderstanding are addressed in the archives here under their proper section. Others we'll gladly address. However be assured there is nothing in Rav Sha'ul's writings that opposes or contradicts other scripture. There is only our misunderstanding based on some very bad teachings and misinterpretations. You don't have to rely just on your feelings to defend your faith and trust in Yeshua. In fact, that is the worst argument I can think of for convincing anyone else; and ultimately a very poor one for sustaining your own faith as feelings/emotions are so volatile they cannot be trusted one moment to the next! (Not saying they aren't important, just that you need more truth and understanding to keep things in balance).
So hold on; give it time. Read in the archives here and continue your studies. If you have a question, find the right sub-forum and post it and we'll try to help. We none of us should be one of those who twist the words of scripture to our own destruction. Nor should we allow misunderstandings taught by a system we have repudiated to form twists in our understanding either.
Dan C
edit: just to point out that the Rabbis can often end up out in the stratosphere with some of their teachings as well. We are all human, and where there are people there will be a certain amount of what can only be labeled as insanity. (I do try to keep mine in check ...  ) |
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
Posts: 89
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Post by lou on Sept 30, 2015 20:14:26 GMT -8
I have developed my understanding n defended the as a whole (ot n nt ) using Daniel 9 n Isaiah 53 to show Jews Yeshua as messiah. Also over 500 fulfilled messianic prophecies. Geological and archaeological discoveries as scientific real proof of Yeshua n bible. Delving further into our Jewish roots I'm finding more questions than I can possibly answer for myself much less others. I have needed an app like this to keep my balances in ck. Ty for your thoughtful n supportive response. |
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Post by Questor on Oct 1, 2015 4:39:57 GMT -8
It is threads like this that frustrate, and infuriate me to no end. It is chock full of lies (unintentional I'm sure) and gross misrepresentations of Judaism, and the Talmud in particular. At no time in the history of Israel was there a dual Messianic expectation. Meaning, two separate appearances of the same man/Mashiakh with two separate missions. It simply did not exist. If Jews were allowed to express their theology (at any Christian/Messianic forum, not just this one) concerning texts authored by Jews, and written for Jews, it could, and would be demonstrated frequently.
It would be rather more to the point for Jews to explain why G-d could not do just this...because He can, and according to the witnesses, and the crucial evidence of Yeshua ben Yosef's advent exactly on time as per Daniel's prophecy, G-d did indeed do just this. One also has to take into consideration the spread of Judeo-Messianic ideas and values to the world by the Jews to the world through the Apostles of Yeshua, and later Nazarenes. Eventually some reform did cause an opening of minds and hearts among the Christian world, but not all at once, and not even now.
Supercessianism, for instance, is a terrible doctrine, and such a lie too, when the Scriptures state so clearly everywhere, in the Tanakh, and in the Apostolic Scriptures that everything Yeshua did was primarily for the Jews who would believe. Gentiles who believe in YHVH, and in Yeshua as Mashiach were added as a present to Yeshua for his sufferings, I think, though I am sure he cannot be much pleased with any of us Gentiles, particularly when it takes us years to dump Christian thought, even when you are not brought up in the church at all, as I was not. I come from a thoroughly Pagan household...totally amoral in fact.
The Greco-Roman Catholics didn't manage to entirely stomp out the 'heresy' of Jews who believed in Yeshua as Observant Jews, and not as taught by the Catholic Church until at least the 5th century, when all trace of them was pretty much submerged, but still were percolating in the odd educated person.
The difficulty for most Jews in accepting out of the box thinking (i.e...not something taught in a Yeshiva, or by your favorite Rabbi, or your Mom and Dad) in regard to Yeshua is the dangerous implications of such a G-d assisted man doing what seems to have been done to this point by Yeshua haNotsri and what implications that has for the future because if that happened to be the case, as we believe, and Yeshua haNotsri returns as Mashiach in power and is Yeshua ben David, as we think he will, it makes Rabbinical Judaism wrong in some ways, and no one wants their teachers to have made such a crucial mistake. The fact that Christianity is very flawed in understanding Judaic thought, and the fact that most Christians believe and teach a lot of lies, is a difficulty for all those different flavors of Christianity, not just the Jews. There is so much to learn from both sides, and a lot to discard in exchange for the complete truth, and it takes time and willingness to not be offended by people like me who mean well, but do not know enough from a Judaic point of view.
Consequently, the idea of Yeshua haNotsri as Mashiach ben David is stomped on fiercely by Rabbinical Judaism just as much as it is stomped on by Christians, Catholic or Protestant, who are in love with their Greco-Roman Jesus. Still, all who come to Messianic Judaism, whether from the Christian/Pagan side or the Jewish side of the question have to dump a lot of wrong thinking, and wrong acting as well. We have to read and re-read the Tanakh, the Brit Chadashah, and the Talmud, even if we do not agree with all the ideas we find. A lot of what is harped on by anti-missionaries can be explained, but one has to take the time, and dump one’s prejudices to even go there. As for the missionaries from Christianity, you have my sympathy, as they are so badly taught in most cases, and yet so persistently sincere.
Christians/Pagans/Infidels have to deal with the fact that rather more is expected of them as Believers in Yeshua than 'faith', 'love', and 'grace', although that is the place everybody needs to start from. They find that if they become Messianic, they may have to throw away much of their entire culture, traditions, family and friends as they pick up the portion of the Mosaic Covenant assigned to us Gentiles by the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, which is difficult, since there is no established, unified understanding of the ramifications of the Acts 15 decree. Messianic Believers are still sorting that out.
However, everyone beginning from the non-Jewish side of the question, once on this path, finds themselves becoming far more Jewish than they ever thought they would be, even if they were observant Christians according to Christian Church doctrine. The constant errors of thought Jews find in Messianic Gentiles is hard to eradicate, and I know I find it difficult to be constantly apologizing to my Jewish brothers and sisters for what I do not yet know, and thus for offenses I do not even know I am committing.
There is one curiosity, though. I never find anything in the Scriptures that conflicts with my conviction that Yeshua haNotsri was Mashiach ben Yosef, and will be Yeshua ben David, and darned little in the Talmud either. I have read every anti-missionary tract that I have found and see only a lack of knowledge of ideas in the Scriptures attached to an unwillingness to consider Yeshua as both Messiachim, one in a mortal human form, and one in a more perfect, incorruptible body. What I constantly see is how close the line of thought is for that very real possibility if you simply dump the Christian/Pagan belief system, and pretend that the Christians never messed with your Yeshua. Jews and Gentiles both need to project themselves back in time to the days when the Temple still stood, and so many Jews in Judea were followers of the ‘The Way’, and the only valid argument among Pharisees was over just how much a part of Israel Gentiles could have in Yeshua, and what they had to do to get it.
Messianic Jews who are not observant in an Orthodox Jewish manner have no credibility with observant non-Messianic Jews after Jewish experience of the Christian world either. Presumably all Jews have to do is be all the more Jewish, just as most of the Jerusalem Church was, and yet they too risk losing all their family ties over the question of who Yeshua haNotsri was because that raises the specter of idolatry as expressed in the Roman Catholic Church and daughter denominations of the Protestant Christian world. The decree by the Catholic Church in 381 that Yeshua was equal to YHVH, as was the Ruach haKodesh is a big hurdle for anyone to get over that has a true horror of idolatry. It is trinitarianism that scares and horrifies Jews, and so it should...I wish Protestant Christians were a little more wary of the concept, since it wasn't even a Catholic notion until 381 AD.
Still, whether as Sliach/Adopted Son or as a permanent theophany as the Shekinah of G-d in a tent of human flesh, Yeshua must be considered carefully as a candidate for the role of Mashiach as a Jewish man of Pharasaic background and observance. Once you keep your eyes fixed on that idea, it becomes easier to accept the possibility. One cannot easily picture the Greco-Roman Jesus when coming from a thoroughly Jewish background because he is rather too Christian to be acceptable. |
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beyond understanding, but I find I grow more in faith as I challenge my understanding. I kind of argue with myself as I think about things. 
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