Prophecies Jesus has not fulfilled

[Mark]

The first argument that the Jew will give us that Yeshua is not the Messiah is that He did not fulfill all the prophecies that are definitive of who the Messiah must be.

When applying definitive characteristics, it doesn't matter how many agree. Even if one criteria is not met, this voids the qualification.

Yeshua has not built the third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
Yeshua has not gathered all Jews back to the land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)
Yeshua has not taught the nations to love Adonai and to submit to Him and to the teachings of . (Zechariah 14:9).

[Yitzchak]

It is interesting when discussing this subject that it is not only that Judaism discounts Yeshua as Messiah because of the Temple issue, but the Chazal (sages) do not even agree on this subject.

For instance, Rambam has to say this concerning Messiah:

If a king will arise from the House of David who is learned in and observant of the mitzvot as prescribed by the written law and the oral law, as David his ancestor was, and will compel all of Israel to walk in the way of , and reinforce the breaches and fight the wars of G-d, we may, with assurance, consider him the Messiah.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Messiah.

However, if one were to study Rashi on this subject, you would learn that he describes the third Temple like this:

The sanctuary of G-d, established by Your hands. It is already completely built and is waiting in the heavens to be revealed.

More interesting that the above is the fact that there is little prophecy spoken of specifically about Messiah and a future Temple. While I agree that there will be a third Temple, and that Messiah Yeshua will reign and be part of the offering of the sacrifices according Ezekiel, I do not believe that this is a valid argument from Judaism.

Further, there were Jews who had a Messianic expectation when Yeshua arrived on the scene, and yet the Temple was still standing then. How do they reconcile this within their argument.

One thing is assured, and that is when the third Temple is built, it will definitely be built by Messiah as spoken by Rambam, and His name will be the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Shabbat Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mark]

One dominant strain of Judaism which bases its Messianic position almost solely on the commentaries of Rashi teaches that the Messiah is not a person at all; rather the Messiah is an allegorical representation of the nation of Israel. This is the primary dismissal of Isaiah 53 and the notion of a "suffering servant".

The third Temple, it is said, will be established on earth when Adonai returns to claim the earth. Messiah (Israel) will then be established King over the earth, not returning with Adonai; but being established by Him as those who had through the centuries remained faithful to His .

Traditional teaching infers that had been offered to everyone on earth; but the Jew was the only to have accepted it with their full heart.

[Yitzchak]

Mark,

This is true concerning Rashi, however, there are so many other of the Chazal that teach regarding Moshiach Ben Yosef, as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. Of course, within traditional Judaism they do not believe that Moshiach will be divine, but that he will be just a human being who has excelled beyond all in his understanding and observance of .

Also, there are many who see this passage as you say allegorically speaking of Israel, but they do not dismiss the idea of a "suffering servant", they merely believe that the servant is Israel.

I remember being taught in Hebrew school this same concept. As early as I can remember I was taught that the was offered to all the nations, but only the Jewish people accepted it.

[Mark]

So, the argument still stands, from the rabbinical perspective, that Yeshua must not be the Messiah because He did not rebuild the Temple. In fact, he died forty years too soon, before the need for a third Temple even existed.

[Blake]

I see it like this this, there are two roles of the Mashiakh as taught in the oral . The humble suffering servant (Ben Yoseif) and the triumphant Ben Dawid. Y'hoshua Ben Yosef Ben Dawid (which his very name identifies both roles) has thus far only fulfilled the Messianic role of Mashiakah Ben Yoseif, but when the time is right he shall reveal himself not humbly as he once did but triumphantly and fulfill all the prophecies that regard Mashiakh Ben Dawid. Such a view is harmonious with the teaching of the sages.

[Chizuk Emunah]

I'd have to agree with Blake. There was a time when it was taught that there would be 2 Messiahs. We see this as being evident even in the time of Yeshua, as his cousin Yochanan sent his talmidim to ask him if he was Moshiach ben-Yosef or Moshiach ben-David.

Sadly, the dual roles have been mostly forgotten and neglected today. Most only relate to the prophecies of Moshiach ben-David, and forget those of Moshiach ben-Yosef. I think in part they do this because if they taught and believed about Moshiach ben-Yosef, then they would have to accept Y'hoshua ben-Yosef as being the Moshiach.

[Yitzchak]

So, one would have to assume based on Blake, and Natanel's position, that the fulfillment of the Tempe being rebuilt comes at a later date. That it is spoken of in Ezekiel, and at that time Moshiach Himself will not only institute, but have a part of in offering sacrifices in this future Temple.

I think it is important to note, as I stated earlier, that there was a Messianic expectation amongst the Jews at the time of Moshiach Yeshua, and the Temple was standing. For me, this means that the need for Messiah to rebuild the Temple is a concept that is related to a more modern Judaism, rather than the Judaism that existed in the Second Temple Period.

Shabbat Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Blake]

I would definately not imply that Mashiakh ben Dawid would offer sacrifices in the temple, this would be a clear violation of the . Only Kohanim are to bring sacrifices before El-Shaddai.
As for the rebuilding of the Temple, this has most certainly been understood as role the Mashiakh would fulfill. The common people were entirely aware that wicked kohanim could not provide a suitable kipur for them and that Herod's Temple was certainly not that mentioned in Ezekial.

Our people have been praying for the Mashiakh to rebuild the Temple three times a day for nearly 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with "modern Judaism" as you put it.

[Nachshon]

Are you certain He couldn't serve as a Kohen? What if Mashiakh were a Nazarite? What if Mashiakh were a Kohen according to the order of Malchetsedek?

[Blake]

Nazirites were considered set-apart and had a special ministry, but by no means does the allow them to bring sacrifices in the Temple no matter what misinformed Church people said about Ya'akov HaTzaddik. The only way a Nazarite could bring a sacrifice was if he was also a Kohen, like Samuel. The is clear, only the sons of Aaron were to bring sacrifices in House of HaShem and Mashiakh would never break the holy mitzwot.

[Yitzchak]

blake said:

I would definately not imply that Mashiakh ben Dawid would offer sacrifices in the temple, this would be a clear violation of the . Only Kohanim are to bring sacrifices before El-Shaddai.

I did not suggest that you implied it. What I suggested is that the scriptures do not only imply it, but support the notion. However, I did not say that Moshiach would offer the sacrifices, I said that He would take part in the offering of sacrifices. This is supported in Ezekiel 40-44 when it discussed the Prince, the descendant of David HaMelech preparing the sacrifices. This in no way is out of line with traditional Judaism.

As for the rebuilding of the Temple, this has most certainly been understood as role the Mashiakh would fulfill. The common people were entirely aware that wicked kohanim could not provide a suitable kipur for them and that Herod's Temple was certainly not that mentioned in Ezekial.

So, then the question that Mark asked remains.

Our people have been praying for the Mashiakh to rebuild the Temple three times a day for nearly 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with modern Judaism as you put it.

Now this is where you and I have a little problem, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder who exactly you are referring to when you say "our people".

I say this, because on another thread I believe you said that you are attempting to participate in the conversion process. I understand that there are many people here, and in the believing community that identify themselves with the Jewish people, and I am the first one to defend that anyone who accepts Messiah is grafted in, and becomes part of the Commonwealth of Israel.

You see young man, as I am old enough to be your father, and was raised in Orthodox Judaism. I was one of those people who was praying three times a day for the Temple before you were a twinkle in your parents eyes, so please do not presume to admonish me regarding something that is new to your understanding.

My reference to modern Judaism above, is in reference to a Judaism which did not have a Temple standing, as my context was the fact that there were those who had a Messianic hope when the Temple was still standing.

Perhaps in the future you should ask for clarification rather than making assumptions.

Shabbat Shalom,

Yitzchak

[inthewind]

Our people have been praying for the Mashiakh to rebuild the Temple three times a day for nearly 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with "modern Judaism" as you put it.

According to the "Temple Mount faithful" and the "Temple Institute" it would lead one to believe that the rebuilding of a temple is imminent.

How do we reconcile this with the 2nd coming, and do we necessarily require the Messiah to be part of the physical rebuilding?

[Pioneer]

inthewind said:

Our people have been praying for the Mashiakh to rebuild the Temple three times a day for nearly 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with "modern Judaism" as you put it.

According to the "Temple Mount faithful" and the "Temple Institute" it would lead one to believe that the rebuilding of a temple is imminent.

How do we reconcile this with the 2nd coming, and do we necessarily require the Messiah to be part of the physical rebuilding?

Shalom,
I am a supporter of the Temple Institute. And I like one of Gershom Solomon's favorite comments to the Christians who try to convert him, "I'll be one of the first ones to ask the Mashiach, "Your first time in Jerusalem?" LOL It implies, "Let him tell we he has been here before." Remember it was God who blinded them, rely on him to open their eyes. I remember when he opened mine.

In my opinion Yeshua is made "High Priest" and is perfectly capable of sprinkling the blood.

There are still mystries unrevealed, that we will not know until we are made "as He is." 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
As for the coming of the Mashiach and the temple,Isa 60:14 The sons of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you; and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Eze 43:7 ¶ and he said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel for ever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their harlotry, and by the dead bodies of their kings,
Is this not the Temple of Ezekiel, a third Temple?

I am no authority, but I do think a third Temple will be started by the Hebrews brought about by a strong hand of God! He will cause the Temple mount to be absent of the Moslem shrines.
Just my thoughts. Ones I share with Rabbi Chiam Richmond.

Shalom

[Mark]

There is a contradiction in prophetic texts concerning the re-building of the Temple (one to which there are not ample possible explanations within traditional Judaism). The contradiction is this: that Messiah must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26-28) but also that He would be "cut off" before the destruction of the Temple (Daniel 9:26).