Prophecies Jesus has not fulfilled

[Yedidyah]

Mar 13, 2014 0:11:36 GMT -8 Questor said:

Oct 18, 2006 23:51:58 GMT -8 R' Y'hoshua Moshe said:

Yes, very good points achim. Two Mashiachs; Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David beautifully fulfills both prophecies. The suffering servant being cut off before the destruction of the last Temple and the reigning King Messiah whom will build the next Temple. He will once again establish the Cohanim and the Levi'im and ministers before YHVH. This is clearly documented in the book of Yechezk'el (Ezek.) amongst other books.

Shalom,

Reuel

The way I have understood the Revelation of Yeshua to John the Beloved was that when Yeshua returns, it will be after the 3rd Temple has been rebuilt, and after the World Ruling AntiCrist sets up the Abomination of desolation.

Yet the Temple was Yeshua that was to be torn down and raised in three days. When Yeshua died, the Temple was destroyed, and the remaining Physical one merely standing until the Roman's tore it down. The Holy of Holies was there, but empty...the veil torn, the Temple so much changed by the earthquake that the light from Temple windows fell differently. The physical, stone temple stood, but it was dead, as was Yeshua, until Yeshua was raised.

Revelation 21:22-27 (CJB)
22 I saw no Temple in the city, for Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb.
23 The city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God’s Sh’khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
25 Its gates will never close, they stay open all day because night will not exist there,
26 and the honor and splendor of the nations will be brought into it.
27 Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


But a temple will be occupied by the Beast:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (CJB)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For already this separating from is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
8 Then the one who embodies separation from will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.
10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them.
11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie.
12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.

The Temple that will be built on earth is yet to be built, but will not be built by Yeshua Ben Joseph Ben David.

Revelation 11:1-2 (NKJV)
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

And the Anti-Christ will be worshiped, and an Image set up in the Temple.


Revelation 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This very much makes it appear as if the Third Temple will be made by mankind prior to Yeshua's return.

Shalom!
I just wanted to point something here that I think is a flaw in this type of thinking. If Yeshua in his death also killed the standing temple then what you have explained sure sounds like what he warned the disciples to watch out for. The standing temple was and will be again a Holy place. This viewpoint makes Yeshua look like the sacrifice that makes desolate (A huge doctrine issue)
It also pins Yeshua against the by making him destroying part of the which is a blasphemy thought.
The third temple will be rebuilt and from scripture we know it will be a dwelling place for Hashem once again regardless if built by mans hands since the first two were built by men so can the third. This does not make it any less of a temple and if standing all the commands on the pilgrimage feasts will be enacted and still stand.
Those who refuse to go will be judged according to scripture.
I think we need to be careful by speaking of something as serious as saying the temple became dead.

Yedidyah

[Questor]

Mar 14, 2014 10:57:09 GMT -8 Yedidyah said:

Mar 13, 2014 0:11:36 GMT -8 Questor said:

The way I have understood the Revelation of Yeshua to John the Beloved was that when Yeshua returns, it will be after the 3rd Temple has been rebuilt, and after the World Ruling AntiCrist sets up the Abomination of desolation.

Yet the Temple was Yeshua that was to be torn down and raised in three days. When Yeshua died, the Temple was destroyed, and the remaining Physical one merely standing until the Roman's tore it down. The Holy of Holies was there, but empty...the veil torn, the Temple so much changed by the earthquake that the light from Temple windows fell differently. The physical, stone temple stood, but it was dead, as was Yeshua, until Yeshua was raised.

Revelation 21:22-27 (CJB)
22 I saw no Temple in the city, for Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb.
23 The city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God’s Sh’khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
25 Its gates will never close, they stay open all day because night will not exist there,
26 and the honor and splendor of the nations will be brought into it.
27 Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


But a temple will be occupied by the Beast:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (CJB)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For already this separating from is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
8 Then the one who embodies separation from will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.
10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them.
11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie.
12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.

The Temple that will be built on earth is yet to be built, but will not be built by Yeshua Ben Joseph Ben David.

Revelation 11:1-2 (NKJV)
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

And the Anti-Christ will be worshiped, and an Image set up in the Temple.


Revelation 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This very much makes it appear as if the Third Temple will be made by mankind prior to Yeshua's return.

Shalom!
I just wanted to point something here that I think is a flaw in this type of thinking. If Yeshua in his death also killed the standing temple then what you have explained sure sounds like what he warned the disciples to watch out for. The standing temple was and will be again a Holy place. This viewpoint makes Yeshua look like the sacrifice that makes desolate (A huge doctrine issue)
It also pins Yeshua against the by making him destroying part of the which is a blasphemy thought.
The third temple will be rebuilt and from scripture we know it will be a dwelling place for Hashem once again regardless if built by mans hands since the first two were built by men so can the third. This does not make it any less of a temple and if standing all the commands on the pilgrimage feasts will be enacted and still stand.
Those who refuse to go will be judged according to scripture.
I think we need to be careful by speaking of something as serious as saying the temple became dead.

Yedidyah

I see your point. It is a difficult thing to describe, because the veil of the Temple was torn...the Temple of Stone was damaged, yet it stood for another 40 years...a time of testing, in some way, though I do not pretend to understand it.

Yeshua Himself did say that He would make the Temple rise again in 3 days, which is where I get the concept.  I know that Yeshua spoke of his body as the Temple, and was not referring to the physical, stone Temple.  But if atonement for all sin had been made in Yeshua, no other blood sacrifice was needed at that point, people might ask: why was the standing temple of use...for other offerings, and worship!

 I apologize if I offended, as if I meant to say the 2nd Temple became worthless. It was not my intention to speak so.


John 2:18-22 (CJB)
18 So the Judeans confronted him by asking him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove you have the right to do all this?”
19 Yeshua answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”
20 The Judeans said, “It took 46 years to build this Temple, and you’re going to raise it in three days?”
21 But the “temple” he had spoken of was his body.
22 Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his talmidim remembered that he had said this, and they trusted in the Tanakh and in what Yeshua had said.

As for the Disciples, the warning to get out of Jerusalem was acted upon during the few days that the attackers withdrew from the siege, allowing people to get away. I think it to be a dual prophecy, for that time, and for the soon future.

[Elizabeth]

This seems like a really trite statement after reading the above very scripturally informed posts, neverthess it seems relevant. Yeshua is not dead. All this talk about what he didn't accomplish doesn't apply for us because he has all the time in eternity to accomplish what we wait for. As a matter of fact, I would say that we give thanks that he bought us this time. We have a Messiah full of grace who gives our G-d a reason to practice patients.

Ok here comes my Christianized perspective in an effort to gain a better understanding.  The Jewish mindset described in the OP of what he hasn't accomplished is based on human limitations that, according to our beliefs, aren't his. IMO, this would bring us to underlying disagreements about Messiah being G-d and an idea of salvation that extends beyond the restoration of Israel and a -observant world in complete peace. I don't know very much at all about Jewish understanding that doesn't accept Yeshua as Messiah. I just have a lot of questions that would put this issue in a different light for me.

What is their understanding of resurrection? Why do we have to die if G-d clearly wants us to live? We all agree that Jewish people don't have to keep the commandments perfectly, but we are saying the reason that is, is because Yeshua did. Where is the source for G-d's grace for them? G-d is gracious, but he is also just. How do they see Him achieving this balance? What was the point of sacrafice to begin with, does it not imply a need to make up for our weaknesses beyond repentance and good works? Repentance was a necessary part of the process, but it clearly didn't stop there or at do your best and make amends.
How does a gracious G-d full of compassion and mercy go about faithfully and lovingly regathering Israel considering many Jewish people are not -observant and are living in a state if rebellion? How do they see Messiah accomplishing this lovingly in faith, if he doesn't give them time to repent?
If all the world is to be blessed, how if Messiah is only a conqueror who restores Israel and implements rule? Where is the blessing for the rest of us in that? What I am trying to get at in general is where is the grace and the justification for it?

Yeshua is drawing people to and Israel. If not Him, who? If Messiah blesses the world, then surely this implies a willingness somewhere on the world's part to live . How do they see Messiah accomishing this better than Yeshua currently is? I guess I think the extra time is part of the blessing.

I don't know, and that's a big I don't know as I don't know much about Jewish beliefs. I would like to understand how they see all of the promises being fulfilled in the blessed way G-d describes if Messiah only comes here to conquer the world, restore Israel, and implement . How does their idea of Messiah accomplish this with blessings and grace that we know G-d has promised. Maybe they have a lot to say on the subject.  I simply am not informed. I am speaking from a very limited and Christianized perspective, and just trying to find a better understanding. Feel free to show me all my old ways of thinking that need to be addressed and dealt with. I am putting this out there for just that reason.

[alon]

Jul 25, 2015 9:19:50 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

This seems like a really trite statement after reading the above very scripturally informed posts, neverthess it seems relevant. Yeshua is not dead. All this talk about what he didn't accomplish doesn't apply for us because he has all the time in eternity to accomplish what we wait for. As a matter of fact, I would say that we give thanks that he bought us this time. We have a Messiah full of grace who gives our G-d a reason to practice patients.

Ok here comes my Christianized perspective in an effort to gain a better understanding. The Jewish mindset described in the OP of what he hasn't accomplished is based on human limitations that, according to our beliefs, aren't his. IMO, this would bring us to underlying disagreements about Messiah being G-d and an idea of salvation that extends beyond the restoration of Israel and a -observant world in complete peace. I don't know very much at all about Jewish understanding that doesn't accept Yeshua as Messiah. I just have a lot of questions that would put this issue in a different light for me.

What is their understanding of resurrection? Why do we have to die if G-d clearly wants us to live? We all agree that Jewish people don't have to keep the commandments perfectly, but we are saying the reason that is, is because Yeshua did. Where is the source for G-d's grace for them? G-d is gracious, but he is also just. How do they see Him achieving this balance? What was the point of sacrafice to begin with, does it not imply a need to make up for our weaknesses beyond repentance and good works? Repentance was a necessary part of the process, but it clearly didn't stop there or at do your best and make amends.
How does a gracious G-d full of compassion and mercy go about faithfully and lovingly regathering Israel considering many Jewish people are not -observant and are living in a state if rebellion? How do they see Messiah accomplishing this lovingly in faith, if he doesn't give them time to repent?
If all the world is to be blessed, how if Messiah is only a conqueror who restores Israel and implements rule? Where is the blessing for the rest of us in that? What I am trying to get at in general is where is the grace and the justification for it?

Yeshua is drawing people to and Israel. If not Him, who? If Messiah blesses the world, then surely this implies a willingness somewhere on the world's part to live . How do they see Messiah accomishing this better than Yeshua currently is? I guess I think the extra time is part of the blessing.

I don't know, and that's a big I don't know as I don't know much about Jewish beliefs. I would like to understand how they see all of the promises being fulfilled in the blessed way G-d describes if Messiah only comes here to conquer the world, restore Israel, and implement . How does their idea of Messiah accomplish this with blessings and grace that we know G-d has promised. Maybe they have a lot to say on the subject.  I simply am not informed. I am speaking from a very limited and Christianized perspective, and just trying to find a better understanding. Feel free to show me all my old ways of thinking that need to be addressed and dealt with. I am putting this out there for just that reason.

Eschatology is not my strong suit; and not having been raised Jewish I can't answer all your questions about Judaism and how they see these things. I'm guessing different sects see things differently anyhow. However I can maybe address some of your concerns with Christian thinking and confusion about how we as new Meshiachim tend to view things.

All this talk about what he didn't accomplish doesn't apply for us because he has all the time in eternity to accomplish what we wait for. ... We have a Messiah full of grace who gives our G-d a reason to practice patients.

That word "grace" has caused more confusion and done more damage among Christians than any other. Defined in "Bible DOctrine", by W Grudam (a Pentacostal textbook) as "God's goodness toward those who only deserve punishment," this term has been used form classroom to pulpit to playground as an excuse to do whatever we want. The correct idea is that if we repent God will show us unmerited favor. However it is much more commonly seen as an excuse to sin and a reason to ignore God's . Those of us raised in Christian churches tend to use this term indiscriminately, as that is how we were trained. "We can do what we want, 'cause we got grace!" Bull!

Ok here comes my Christianized perspective in an effort to gain a better understanding. The Jewish mindset described in the OP of what he hasn't accomplished is based on human limitations that, according to our beliefs, aren't his. IMO, this would bring us to underlying disagreements about Messiah being G-d and an idea of salvation that extends beyond the restoration of Israel and a -observant world in complete peace. I don't know very much at all about Jewish understanding that doesn't accept Yeshua as Messiah. I just have a lot of questions that would put this issue in a different light for me.

All we as humans tend to try to put limitations on God; and the Jews are no different. The idea that HaMoshiach can only come once and must accomplish everything at that time is a lie, even in Jewish thought (as pointed out in earlier posts). However, over the centuries as Christian persecution became worse and worse, this lie became more and more pervasive. Sadly, when faced with a common enemy (the church) Jews over the last 2000 yrs have become more and more radicalized in their thinking about Christianity and their (our) version of Messiah. It is easy for them to believe the lies of the antimissionary when the remembrances of the latest attempt to wipe them out are so fresh. And now we see anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment growing worldwide and our churches are mostly either silent or worse leading the charge against the Jews. This is how they become isolated and easy prey for extremist views toward us, their common enemy. Even Meshiachim are not trusted because too many times they've seen friends become enemies when it is expedient to save their own lives.

As to the non- Observant world attaining peace, I believe there will be Christians in the Olam HaBa, but they'll be there in spite of their church, not because of it. The rest of the world will cry "Peace. peace! But there will be no peace." Not all (or even most) of the world will be saved. Most of those who believe they are saved will be told to "Depart, you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you." There is also a lie in your thinking which is endemic to both Judaism and Christianity, and that is that the Jewish nation rejected Yeshua. Christians wanted to remove all taint of Judaism from their religion, and Jews wanted to remain the only custodians of their faith. So both perpetrated this lie. However there is ample evidence that half or better of the Hebrew population of the time accepted Yeshua. This means that for a time, the Meshiachim were the dominant faction or sect of Judaism. This also means that most of the Jews of the 1st cen CE believed HaMoshiach would come twice; once as ben Yoseph and later as ben Dovid. However attacked by Jews, the church, and every pagan government since the early Meshiachim were eventually extinguished somewhere around the 5th or 6th cen CE.

The entire world is blessed through the Jews because God chose them through which to offer His salvation. But this does not mean all people, or even all Jews will receive His grace in the end. How many Jews went down directly to Sheol in Korach's Rebellion? (Num 16). The earth opened and swallowed up the households of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, including their little ones. Grace has limits. And the final limit is to die in sin, either by rejecting Yeshua or by falling away.

What is their understanding of resurrection? Why do we have to die if G-d clearly wants us to live? We all agree that Jewish people don't have to keep the commandments perfectly, but we are saying the reason that is, is because Yeshua did. Where is the source for G-d's grace for them? G-d is gracious, but he is also just. How do they see Him achieving this balance? What was the point of sacrafice to begin with, does it not imply a need to make up for our weaknesses beyond repentance and good works? Repentance was a necessary part of the process, but it clearly didn't stop there or at do your best and make amends.
How does a gracious G-d full of compassion and mercy go about faithfully and lovingly regathering Israel considering many Jewish people are not -observant and are living in a state if rebellion? How do they see Messiah accomplishing this lovingly in faith, if he doesn't give them time to repent?
If all the world is to be blessed, how if Messiah is only a conqueror who restores Israel and implements rule? Where is the blessing for the rest of us in that? What I am trying to get at in general is where is the grace and the justification for it?

Ressurection- I think most Jews believe in it. Past that I won't comment. Death- because sin entered the world. You think Christianity was smart enough to figure that out without help? Keeping the commandments- yes, they do need to keep them as perfect as possible, hence those infamous fences the Messianic movement rebels so hard against. In their eyes, one mans sin stains the nation. Perfectly- well, there are mitzvahs and then there is Yom Kippur, since no one is perfect. Sacrifices- these were for unintentional sins. There is no sacrifice in for an intentional sin; and expiation was only granted if one fell on his face, repented and begged God's mercy. This sounds like true grace in action to me, that God would forgive even Melech Dovid for adultery and murder and call him a man after His own heart. Because when confronted with his crimes by Nathan the prophet his reaction was immediate and sincere, as was God's grace.

Regathering Israel will be accomplished by God in His own way. Part of that regathering was done through the aftermath of the Shoa, and I suspect the rest of the ingathering may be similarly traumatic. According to Chosen People Ministries, one reason God allows persecution of the Jewish people is they were never meant to be at home anywhere in the world except Israel. God loves His people, but He never said they wouldn't suffer. Seems He told His disciples "They hated Me; they will hate you also." You seem to be confusing God's love with a promise of complete shalom. Perhaps as an attitude, but not as an absence of persecution. And the worse the persecution gets, the more will make Aliyah.

The blessing for "the rest of us" is that if we accept the God who chose to reveal Himself through the nation of Israel, and if we keep the He handed down through that same nation, we will be saved. We are grafted onto the rootstalk of Yisro'el (Rom 11), and therefore made heir to the promises. Salvation is the same today as it was when was given to the Jews and those of the nations gathered with them- take hold of Yisro'el, claim the promises, trust the One True God of the Hebrew people, obey His commandments, and you will be saved. No other way is given for salvation in the TNK or the B'rith Chadashah. And in that is grace, and no other place. That is where we find the unmerited favor of God.

I don't know, and that's a big I don't know as I don't know much about Jewish beliefs. I would like to understand how they see all of the promises being fulfilled in the blessed way G-d describes if Messiah only comes here to conquer the world, restore Israel, and implement . How does their idea of Messiah accomplish this with blessings and grace that we know G-d has promised. Maybe they have a lot to say on the subject.  I simply am not informed. I am speaking from a very limited and Christianized perspective, and just trying to find a better understanding. Feel free to show me all my old ways of thinking that need to be addressed and dealt with. I am putting this out there for just that reason

That would imply that the contemporary views of Judaism are right. I find this no more true than that the tennets of Christianity are all correct. If I believed either, I'd either be Jewish or Christian. I am however Messianic, so obviously all I can tell you is that both are to some extent wrong- wrong enough for me to reject any denomination or sect of either faith.Am I all right? No, I am still learning. But I think I/WE are on the right path!

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for your reply. I am going to reread it and think about all my assumptions and understanding with this in my mind. I know I have a lot of limitations in understanding and perspective, and I apologize for throwing all my junk out on here, but I am just trying to understand how a different version of Messiah would accomish all G-d's plans any more lovingly, faithfully, and graciously as Yeshua in Jewish minds. Obviously, I don't believe there is. I am just trying to understand how they think Messiah can accomplish ALL G-d said any better than Yeshus is given the state we are all in. I also want us to stop getting pulled into this past tense of what he didn't do. G-d has always taken His time with people. How much more when we are talking about eternal separation frim Him?

My gut tells me, our conversations need to change from a defensive approach to more of a "well, you tell us how better then...", but I don't know enough about their understanding to go far with that or know for sure. Just trying to finish and correct my thinking.

[alon]

The main thing to remember is this is not about winning an argument, it is about winning souls. Understanding that this debate occurs in Jewish writings long before there was ever a Christian or any Meshiachim is about convincing Jews to consider Yeshua as HaMoshiach. But in the end their decision is between them and God. We are responsible to learn these things the best we can and present it to them in love and with all respect, to be available for further discussion if they desire it, and that is all. I commend your efforts to understand these things, because you can not otherwise convince interested Jewish people effectively. Just remember where to keep your focus. We are to win hearts, not arguments.

You are definitely going the right direction with this, and it's important for us all to keep these things in perspective even as we learn them. Thanks.

Dan

[garrett]

Jul 25, 2015 21:42:40 GMT -8 alon said:

Jul 25, 2015 9:19:50 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

This seems like a really trite statement after reading the above very scripturally informed posts, neverthess it seems relevant. Yeshua is not dead. All this talk about what he didn't accomplish doesn't apply for us because he has all the time in eternity to accomplish what we wait for. As a matter of fact, I would say that we give thanks that he bought us this time. We have a Messiah full of grace who gives our G-d a reason to practice patients.

Ok here comes my Christianized perspective in an effort to gain a better understanding. The Jewish mindset described in the OP of what he hasn't accomplished is based on human limitations that, according to our beliefs, aren't his. IMO, this would bring us to underlying disagreements about Messiah being G-d and an idea of salvation that extends beyond the restoration of Israel and a -observant world in complete peace. I don't know very much at all about Jewish understanding that doesn't accept Yeshua as Messiah. I just have a lot of questions that would put this issue in a different light for me.

What is their understanding of resurrection? Why do we have to die if G-d clearly wants us to live? We all agree that Jewish people don't have to keep the commandments perfectly, but we are saying the reason that is, is because Yeshua did. Where is the source for G-d's grace for them? G-d is gracious, but he is also just. How do they see Him achieving this balance? What was the point of sacrafice to begin with, does it not imply a need to make up for our weaknesses beyond repentance and good works? Repentance was a necessary part of the process, but it clearly didn't stop there or at do your best and make amends.
How does a gracious G-d full of compassion and mercy go about faithfully and lovingly regathering Israel considering many Jewish people are not -observant and are living in a state if rebellion? How do they see Messiah accomplishing this lovingly in faith, if he doesn't give them time to repent?
If all the world is to be blessed, how if Messiah is only a conqueror who restores Israel and implements rule? Where is the blessing for the rest of us in that? What I am trying to get at in general is where is the grace and the justification for it?

Yeshua is drawing people to and Israel. If not Him, who? If Messiah blesses the world, then surely this implies a willingness somewhere on the world's part to live . How do they see Messiah accomishing this better than Yeshua currently is? I guess I think the extra time is part of the blessing.

I don't know, and that's a big I don't know as I don't know much about Jewish beliefs. I would like to understand how they see all of the promises being fulfilled in the blessed way G-d describes if Messiah only comes here to conquer the world, restore Israel, and implement . How does their idea of Messiah accomplish this with blessings and grace that we know G-d has promised. Maybe they have a lot to say on the subject.  I simply am not informed. I am speaking from a very limited and Christianized perspective, and just trying to find a better understanding. Feel free to show me all my old ways of thinking that need to be addressed and dealt with. I am putting this out there for just that reason.

Eschatology is not my strong suit; and not having been raised Jewish I can't answer all your questions about Judaism and how they see these things. I'm guessing different sects see things differently anyhow. However I can maybe address some of your concerns with Christian thinking and confusion about how we as new Meshiachim tend to view things.

All this talk about what he didn't accomplish doesn't apply for us because he has all the time in eternity to accomplish what we wait for. ... We have a Messiah full of grace who gives our G-d a reason to practice patients.

That word "grace" has caused more confusion and done more damage among Christians than any other. Defined in "Bible DOctrine", by W Grudam (a Pentacostal textbook) as "God's goodness toward those who only deserve punishment," this term has been used form classroom to pulpit to playground as an excuse to do whatever we want. The correct idea is that if we repent God will show us unmerited favor. However it is much more commonly seen as an excuse to sin and a reason to ignore God's . Those of us raised in Christian churches tend to use this term indiscriminately, as that is how we were trained. "We can do what we want, 'cause we got grace!" Bull!

Ok here comes my Christianized perspective in an effort to gain a better understanding. The Jewish mindset described in the OP of what he hasn't accomplished is based on human limitations that, according to our beliefs, aren't his. IMO, this would bring us to underlying disagreements about Messiah being G-d and an idea of salvation that extends beyond the restoration of Israel and a -observant world in complete peace. I don't know very much at all about Jewish understanding that doesn't accept Yeshua as Messiah. I just have a lot of questions that would put this issue in a different light for me.

All we as humans tend to try to put limitations on God; and the Jews are no different. The idea that HaMoshiach can only come once and must accomplish everything at that time is a lie, even in Jewish thought (as pointed out in earlier posts). However, over the centuries as Christian persecution became worse and worse, this lie became more and more pervasive. Sadly, when faced with a common enemy (the church) Jews over the last 2000 yrs have become more and more radicalized in their thinking about Christianity and their (our) version of Messiah. It is easy for them to believe the lies of the antimissionary when the remembrances of the latest attempt to wipe them out are so fresh. And now we see anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment growing worldwide and our churches are mostly either silent or worse leading the charge against the Jews. This is how they become isolated and easy prey for extremist views toward us, their common enemy. Even Meshiachim are not trusted because too many times they've seen friends become enemies when it is expedient to save their own lives.

As to the non- Observant world attaining peace, I believe there will be Christians in the Olam HaBa, but they'll be there in spite of their church, not because of it. The rest of the world will cry "Peace. peace! But there will be no peace." Not all (or even most) of the world will be saved. Most of those who believe they are saved will be told to "Depart, you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you." There is also a lie in your thinking which is endemic to both Judaism and Christianity, and that is that the Jewish nation rejected Yeshua. Christians wanted to remove all taint of Judaism from their religion, and Jews wanted to remain the only custodians of their faith. So both perpetrated this lie. However there is ample evidence that half or better of the Hebrew population of the time accepted Yeshua. This means that for a time, the Meshiachim were the dominant faction or sect of Judaism. This also means that most of the Jews of the 1st cen CE believed HaMoshiach would come twice; once as ben Yoseph and later as ben Dovid. However attacked by Jews, the church, and every pagan government since the early Meshiachim were eventually extinguished somewhere around the 5th or 6th cen CE.

The entire world is blessed through the Jews because God chose them through which to offer His salvation. But this does not mean all people, or even all Jews will receive His grace in the end. How many Jews went down directly to Sheol in Korach's Rebellion? (Num 16). The earth opened and swallowed up the households of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, including their little ones. Grace has limits. And the final limit is to die in sin, either by rejecting Yeshua or by falling away.

What is their understanding of resurrection? Why do we have to die if G-d clearly wants us to live? We all agree that Jewish people don't have to keep the commandments perfectly, but we are saying the reason that is, is because Yeshua did. Where is the source for G-d's grace for them? G-d is gracious, but he is also just. How do they see Him achieving this balance? What was the point of sacrafice to begin with, does it not imply a need to make up for our weaknesses beyond repentance and good works? Repentance was a necessary part of the process, but it clearly didn't stop there or at do your best and make amends.
How does a gracious G-d full of compassion and mercy go about faithfully and lovingly regathering Israel considering many Jewish people are not -observant and are living in a state if rebellion? How do they see Messiah accomplishing this lovingly in faith, if he doesn't give them time to repent?
If all the world is to be blessed, how if Messiah is only a conqueror who restores Israel and implements rule? Where is the blessing for the rest of us in that? What I am trying to get at in general is where is the grace and the justification for it?

Ressurection- I think most Jews believe in it. Past that I won't comment. Death- because sin entered the world. You think Christianity was smart enough to figure that out without help? Keeping the commandments- yes, they do need to keep them as perfect as possible, hence those infamous fences the Messianic movement rebels so hard against. In their eyes, one mans sin stains the nation. Perfectly- well, there are mitzvahs and then there is Yom Kippur, since no one is perfect. Sacrifices- these were for unintentional sins. There is no sacrifice in for an intentional sin; and expiation was only granted if one fell on his face, repented and begged God's mercy. This sounds like true grace in action to me, that God would forgive even Melech Dovid for adultery and murder and call him a man after His own heart. Because when confronted with his crimes by Nathan the prophet his reaction was immediate and sincere, as was God's grace.

Regathering Israel will be accomplished by God in His own way. Part of that regathering was done through the aftermath of the Shoa, and I suspect the rest of the ingathering may be similarly traumatic. According to Chosen People Ministries, one reason God allows persecution of the Jewish people is they were never meant to be at home anywhere in the world except Israel. God loves His people, but He never said they wouldn't suffer. Seems He told His disciples "They hated Me; they will hate you also." You seem to be confusing God's love with a promise of complete shalom. Perhaps as an attitude, but not as an absence of persecution. And the worse the persecution gets, the more will make Aliyah.

The blessing for "the rest of us" is that if we accept the God who chose to reveal Himself through the nation of Israel, and if we keep the He handed down through that same nation, we will be saved. We are grafted onto the rootstalk of Yisro'el (Rom 11), and therefore made heir to the promises. Salvation is the same today as it was when was given to the Jews and those of the nations gathered with them- take hold of Yisro'el, claim the promises, trust the One True God of the Hebrew people, obey His commandments, and you will be saved. No other way is given for salvation in the TNK or the B'rith Chadashah. And in that is grace, and no other place. That is where we find the unmerited favor of God.

I don't know, and that's a big I don't know as I don't know much about Jewish beliefs. I would like to understand how they see all of the promises being fulfilled in the blessed way G-d describes if Messiah only comes here to conquer the world, restore Israel, and implement . How does their idea of Messiah accomplish this with blessings and grace that we know G-d has promised. Maybe they have a lot to say on the subject.  I simply am not informed. I am speaking from a very limited and Christianized perspective, and just trying to find a better understanding. Feel free to show me all my old ways of thinking that need to be addressed and dealt with. I am putting this out there for just that reason

That would imply that the contemporary views of Judaism are right. I find this no more true than that the tennets of Christianity are all correct. If I believed either, I'd either be Jewish or Christian. I am however Messianic, so obviously all I can tell you is that both are to some extent wrong- wrong enough for me to reject any denomination or sect of either faith.Am I all right? No, I am still learning. But I think I/WE are on the right path!

Dan C

Elizabeth - These are very valid questions - even frustrations. And Alon - these are helpful answers. 

Maybe after I can think about this, I can throw my two cents worth into the topic. I think much of it has been covered though.

[Torah Lishmah]

I thought I might chime in on this thread from time to time. It is very interesting.

Jul 25, 2015 9:19:50 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

All this talk about what he didn't accomplish doesn't apply for us because he has all the time in eternity to accomplish what we wait for.

That is not entirely true. Some of the requirements he must fulfill in order to be eligible to be the true Mashiakh are indeed time related.


Shalom

[alon]

Aug 27, 2015 19:22:49 GMT -8 Torah Lishmah said:

... Some of the requirements he must fulfill in order to be eligible to be the true Mashiakh are indeed time related.

True; everything in its appointed time. However since Jews, Christians and Meshiachim all believe Messiah is going to come some time in the future, there is no problem saying He will fulfill all the prophesies. The real discussion is whether some have already been fulfilled, and the corollary, was it Yeshua who fulfilled them?

It has been established in previous posts that Jewish thought at the time was that there would probably be two Messiah's; Moshiach Ben Yoseph, and Moshiach Ben Dovid at a later time. Did Yeshua then fulfill any prophesies concerning the Messiah?

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law, or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17)

Son of God, Psalms 2:7 Fulfilled- Luke 1:32, Luke 1:35

descendant of Abraham, Genesis 17:7 ; Genesis 22:18 Fulfilled- Galatians 3:16

descendant of Isaac, Genesis 21:12 Fulfilled- Hebrews 11:17

descendant of David, Psalms 132:11; Jeremiah 23:5 Fulfilled-Acts 13:23; Romans 1:3

coming at a set time, Genesis 49:10; Daniel 9:24, Daniel 9:25 Fulfilled- Luke 2:1

born of a virgin, Isaiah 7:14 Fulfilled- Matthew 1:22, Matthew 1:23; Luke 2:7

called Immanuel, Isaiah 7:14 Fulfilled-Matthew 1:22, Matthew 1:23

born in Bethlehem of Judea, Micah 5:2 Fulfilled- Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4

miracles, Isaiah 35:5, Isaiah 35:6 Fulfilled- Matthew 11:4; John 11:47

rejected by his brethren, Psalms 69:8; Isaiah 63:3 Fulfilled- John 1:11, John 7:3

a stumbling stone to the Jews, Isaiah 8:14 Fulfilled- Romans 9:32; 1 Peter 1:8

sold for thirty pieces silver, Zechariah 11:12 Fulfilled- Matthew 26:15

His price given for the potters field, Zechariah 11:13 Fulfilled- Matthew 27:7

Excerpted from "Prophecies Respecting Christ" (public domain)

Not a comprehensive list, but certainly enough to give pause to anyone honestly considering whether Yeshua was indeed HaMoshiach Ben Yoseph.

That it will be Yeshua who returns as Moshiach Ben Dovid is of course accounted for due to His resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father.

Acts 2:29-35 (CJB) “Brothers, I know I can say to you frankly that the patriarch David died and was buried — his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that one of his descendants would sit on his throne, he was speaking in advance about the resurrection of the Messiah, that it was he who was not abandoned in Sh’ol and whose flesh did not see decay. God raised up this Yeshua! And we are all witnesses of it! “Moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of God; has received from the Father what he promised, namely, the Ruach HaKodesh; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into heaven. But he says, ‘Adonai said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’

Midrash on Psalm 18, Section 29 Rabbi Yudan [c. 350 C.E.] said in the name of Rabbi Hama [ben-Hina, c. 260 C.E.], 'In the time to come, when the Holy One, blessed be he, seats the King, the Messiah, at his right handas it is said,"Adonai said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand,'" and seats Abraham at his left, Abraham's face will grow pale, and he will say to God, "My son's son sits at the right, while I sit on the left!" God will then comfort him by saying to him, "Your son's son is indeed at my right, but I myself, in a manner of speaking, am at your right, since 'The Lord is at your right hand'(Psalm 110:5)."'"

This must be some of the "code" which TL has spoken of to me before, as I would think Avraham would beam with pride to see that indeed the promise of HaMoshiach was fulfilled through his line, and that He now sits at the right hand of God (probably a metaphor anyhow, since there is but One God). Not to say Yeshua Himself was a metaphor- He was a man, physical in His being yet holy in His essence. That God can concentrate His own essence in the form of a man or anything else He wishes is evident in theophany's throughout the TNK.

There are also many "types" of Messiah in the TNK. Moshe certainly typified Moshiach many times in his actions.

Exodus 32:30-32 (CJB) The next day Moshe said to the people, “You have committed a terrible sin. Now I will go up to Adonai ; maybe I will be able to atone for your sin.” Moshe went back to Adonai and said, “Please! These people have committed a terrible sin: they have made themselves a god out of gold. Now, if you will just forgive their sin! But if you won’t, then, I beg you, blot me out of your book which you have written!”

Moshe offered himself a willing sacrifice for his people. Now, since Jewish law forbids human sacrifice, why wasn't Moshe himself reprimanded for this? For the same reason Yeshua was to later be Himself the only sacrifice for expiation of our sins: there is a huge difference in being sacrificed and sacrificing yourself. I'm in a fighting hole with another soldier, and a grenade falls in. Something must be done, right now! I a.) throw the other guy on the grenade, sacrificing him, and am later court-martialed, or b.) I jump on the grenade, sacrificing myself to save his life, and am posthumously (I haven't figured out that 3 day resurrection thing yet ... ) awarded a medal. Yeshua willingly gave up His life so that we all, before and after the fact, could be saved. Human sacrifice is forbidden, but nowhere is it written you can't step in front of a bullet for someone else. We are in fact shown, through Moshe, that this is not only permitted but God looks favorably on it (He didn't destroy the Hebrews ...).

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Glad just to listen.

[Elizabeth]

Never mind; I have been thinking and so have more to say/ ask. What is the Jewish understanding of redemption?

We see redemption directly relating to G-d's original intention for creation and Yeshua as the one who achieves it.

Repentance is only sufficient as far as G-d's power and sovereignty, as true repentance is basically acknowledging you can do nothing and have nothing apart from Him.
Based on my limited understanding of what has been discussed on this forum, here is what my thoughts on the subject boil down to.

We repent because we fall short of G-d's plan for us. We repent to give our life back to G-d to restore it. We do good out of love for G-d. However, even the love we have is from Him and the good we do is for our sake as He needs us for nothing and uses it to draw us closer to Him. It isn't our goodness or repentance that restores anything, it is G-d. It just seems the reality that we have to repent and we have to die, point to our own inability to achieve the life G-d intended and the need for atonement beyond repentance and good deeds. Obviously, this is exactly where I personally find Yeshua and the atonement He gives as what makes our repentance sufficient for our redemption.

There is this disconnect that I am having a hard time verbalizing. How can repentance and good deeds atone for sin when we only need repentance and good deeds because of sin? How is redemption accomplished or addressed in Jewish thought? Why do we still have to die if death is a consequence of sin, but we can atone for sin ourselves? Maybe I misunderstood too much for these questions to be anything but annoying, but these are the questions I have based on the understanding I have so far.

[alon]

Aug 30, 2015 14:30:12 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Never mind; I have been thinking and so have more to say/ ask. What is the Jewish understanding of redemption?

We see redemption directly relating to G-d's original intention for creation and Yeshua as the one who achieves it.

Repentance is only sufficient as far as G-d's power and sovereignty, as true repentance is basically acknowledging you can do nothing and have nothing apart from Him.
Based on my limited understanding of what has been discussed on this forum, here is what my thoughts on the subject boil down to.

We repent because we fall short of G-d's plan for us. We repent to give our life back to G-d to restore it. We do good out of love for G-d. However, even the love we have is from Him and the good we do is for our sake as He needs us for nothing and uses it to draw us closer to Him. It isn't our goodness or repentance that restores anything, it is G-d. It just seems the reality that we have to repent and we have to die, point to our own inability to achieve the life G-d intended and the need for atonement beyond repentance and good deeds. Obviously, this is exactly where I personally find Yeshua and the atonement He gives as what makes our repentance sufficient for our redemption.

There is this disconnect that I am having a hard time verbalizing. How can repentance and good deeds atone for sin when we only need repentance and good deeds because of sin? How is redemption accomplished or addressed in Jewish thought? Why do we still have to die if death is a consequence of sin, but we can atone for sin ourselves? Maybe I misunderstood too much for these questions to be anything but annoying, but these are the questions I have based on the understanding I have so far.

I don't think I can completely answer the question about contemporary Jewish thought. Most I think do accord good works a place in their salvation, where we and I think ancient Hebrew thought would say works is a result of our desire to please God. Probably modern Jews would agree to an extent- I don't know. I do know they view salvation as being both personal and communal (national) in nature. I think our focus just on the personal is wrong, and the consequences of this view is seen in the state of society today. The ancient Hebrews lost sight of this from time to time, with disastrous results.

Throughout both the TNK and B'rith Chadasha we are told we cannot effect our own salvation. It is the free gift of God, however we must repent and ask forgiveness. Repentance in Hebrew means a turning back to the original state of man (not just turning away from sin, as we were taught). This implies we cultivate a relationship with God and with His community of believers. And "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it. A Jew would tell you "Don't tell me, SHOW me."

Yeshua Himself said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Jhn 14:15) Love implies a relationship, and this relationship causes us to desire to do as He says that we will please Him.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 (CJB) and recalling too how from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which can give you the wisdom that leads to deliverance through trusting in Yeshua the Messiah. All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; thus anyone who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work.

The scriptures being spoken of here can ONLY be the TNK, as these were the ONLY scriptures in existence at the time this was written! So we can see that salvation itself was the same for those in the days of the TNK as for those believers in Yeshua to whom this letter was written. God does not change, and He is no respecter of persons. The confusion comes when we try and say there is a different plan for different people.

Lev 24:22 (KJV) Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Yeshua was the atonement for our sins, both those who looked forward in faith and those of us who look back in the same faith. Good deeds do not atone for sins, despite the teachings of some (both Jew and Gentile). They are one of the fruits of our salvation, not the cause of it.

Acts 4:12 (ESV) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Dan C

Edit: if TL or tonga want to give the contemporary Jewish view or (horrors ) correct me if I said anything wrong, answering a question wouldn't be teaching. There would obviously be some disagreement concerning Yeshua- we can all just respectfully acknowledge this and glean insight instead of arguing the point. We all know the elephant is there; I'd be more interested in which end you think is the tail .

[Elizabeth]

Not trying to argue; trying to understand.

I dont understand enough to argue and want to address uninformed thinking. This idea is such an assumption in Christianity; I never put actual thought into how someone else can make up for my weakness and restore my being. Christianity tells you what happens, but doesnt really explain it beyond being indebted. I understand this better as a Messianic believer and see the picture of this indebtedness in so I wonder what more Judaism has to offer on the subject.

[alon]

Aug 31, 2015 10:03:20 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

... This idea is such an assumption in Christianity; I never put actual thought into how someone else can make up for my weakness and restore my being. Christianity tells you what happens, but doesnt really explain it beyond being indebted. I understand this better as a Messianic believer and see the picture of this indebtedness in so I wonder what more Judaism has to offer on the subject.

You are asking believers in Judaism to explain your salvation, and I don't think they can do that. Our beliefs on this are so diverse that even the foundational things we both believe on are interpreted very differently. Not to shut them down- if they have insights they'd like to share I would encourage them to do so. I'm just not sure it is fair to ask them about this as they are at a disadvantage being on a Messianic forum.

You however are correct to want to know. You are also correct that Christianity doesn't completely address the why of your salvation. They invest not only their salvation but their understanding in faith.

faith‌ (fāth) ‌n.‌
‌1. ‌ Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
‌2. ‌ Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
‌3. ‌ Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: ‌keeping faith with one's supporters.‌
‌4. ‌ often ‌Faith‌ ‌Christianity‌ The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
‌5. ‌ The body of dogma of a religion: ‌the Muslim faith.‌
‌6. ‌ A set of principles or beliefs.
(Free Dictionary Online)

Faith means believing, too often just accepting what you were told. As Meshiachim we tend to use words like trust and understanding instead of faith and belief. Even when we do use terms like belief, we want that belief to be completely informed. We want to understand fully; which seems to be what you are trying to do here. So let's start on common ground, but very soon we as Meshiachim will diverge from both Jewish and Christian thought here.

Isaiah 55:7 CJB “Let the wicked person abandon his way and the evil person his thoughts; let him return to ADONAI, and he will have mercy on him; let him return to our God, for he will freely forgive.”

Teshuva, repentance, abandoning wickedness and turning our thoughts to God is the way to salvation.

Isaiah 53: 4-12 CJB “In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God. But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises we are healed. We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet ADONAI laid on him the guilt of all of us. Though mistreated, he was submissive - he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb led to be slaughtered, like a sheep silent before its shearers, he did not open his mouth. After forcible arrest and sentencing, he was taken away; and none of his generation protested his being cut off from the land of the living for the crimes of my people, who deserved the punishment themselves. He was given a grave among the wicked; in his death he was with a rich man. Although he had done no violence and had said nothing deceptive, yet it pleased ADONAI to crush him with illness, to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering. If he does, he will see his offspring; and he will prolong his days; and at his hand ADONAI's desire will be accomplished. After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction. "By his knowing [pain and sacrifice], my righteous servant makes many righteous; it is for their sins that he suffers. Therefore I will assign him a share with the great, he will divide the spoil with the mighty, for having exposed himself to death and being counted among the sinners, while actually bearing the sin of many and interceding for the offenders.”

Jews today say this applies to the Jewish people, while Christians say it is a Messianic prophecy. Being the word of God, I’d say it is both. In fact, my view is that the Jews and Israel are living prophecy. God chose to reveal Himself through them, and their survival and return as a nation boldly attests that what God says He will do. At the same time, this prophecy bears a striking, uncanny resemblance to Yeshua. As the thread title says, all of this has not yet been fulfilled. However all that would apply to Moshiach BenYoseph has.

This passage also deals with the "why" of our need for salvation, as it says "We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet ADONAI laid on him the guilt of all of us." There has ever in history past or future always been only one perfect, unblemished by sin life; that of Yeshua, HaMoshiach. He bore our sin, and by His stripes we are healed.

Micah 5:2 CJB “But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat, so small among the clans of Y'hudah, out of you will come forth to me the future ruler of Isra'el, whose origins are far in the past, back in ancient times.”

The “ancient times” are from all eternity past, and speaks of God Himself. The sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish, perfect in every way concerning to God’s laws. Only God Himself would suffice.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (CJB) God made this sinless man be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we might fully share in God’s righteousness.”

So our faith and trust has always been in God and His plan for our redemption. This plan was revealed in the TNK in the slain lamb’s blood at Passover, in all the sacrifices of animals, and in Isaiah 53.

Leviticus 17:11 (CJB) For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life.’

Deuteronomy 17:1 (CJB) “You are not to sacrifice to Adonai your God a cow or sheep that has a defect or anything wrong with it; that would be an abomination to Adonai your God.

Blood, a life, is the price of sin; and only a spotless (sinless) life would make absolute expiation for our sins. That life as the willing sacrifice, the man who stepped in front of a bullet for us, so to speak, was God Himself invested in the form of a man, Yeshua.

Christianity, by and large, makes many "assumptions," as you said, investing all their hope in faith, believing what they are told. Even those who dig deeper tend to just read what others of their faith have to say on the subject. When shown plainly in text in their own Bible they are wrong, either their eyes glaze over and they shut you down, or they get angry. But I have never had any of them answer any of my queries or challenges, some of which I have posted on this forum as I was going up against men with Masters degrees and needed help getting my ducks in a row. They were not able to answer either (thanks to all who helped!).* All that to say you are correct to question, to seek to know and not just to believe on faith.

The answer is to dig into God's word and know for yourself. Make a habit of not just reading, but studying the par'shah each week. That is your foundation, the same as the Jew's. We'll be starting a new cycle next month (10 Oct), so I'd advise you start now getting in the habit of reading (if you havn't already) and then really start to dig in when the new cycle starts. I think there are good expositions on most of these par'shot, if not all of them, right here on this forum. And I'm sure more insights will follow in the new cycle.

I hope this helps. The questions you raise are important not just to our "beleifs" but to our salvation itself.

Dan C

* Edit: just to clarify, I did not just accost anyone with my beliefs. In every case these disagreements came out of discussion or their asking me questions, or of their outright challenging me and what I believe (think). In every case where they would listen, I have answered them. In no case have they been able to answer me. And always, it is not me but the word of God which carries the day. I simply open the book ...

[Elizabeth]

I am not asking anyone to explain my salvation, just thinking and trying to finish my own thoughts. Sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable.