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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Oct 13, 2006 9:47:59 GMT -8
Right. That is the difference between Moshiach ben-David and Moshiach ben-Yosef.
Moshiach ben-Yosef was to come first, then suffer and die.
{The Rabbis said: His name is "the leper scholar," as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.}
-Talmud Sanhedrin 98b
Then, Moshiach ben-David would come, conquer Israel's enemies, and reign from Yerushalayim.
{"And My servant David shall be their Prince forever."}
-Yekhezqiel 37:25
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Post by Glenda on Oct 14, 2006 4:19:42 GMT -8
Just wondering why people desire a stone temple made with human hands when Yeshua fulfilled the prophecy of rebuilding the temple (of his body where YHWH resides) in 3 days
JN 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
MK 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
This agrees with prophecy:
MAL 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
which I understand as being the messenger of the covenant (Yeshua) is the temple that God suddenly comes to. The Law resides in Yeshua and yet was absent from the stone temple since the ark wasn't there ... so a stone temple without the stone tablets is not nearly as lovely as a living temple with the Law written on hearts.
MT 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple.
Yeshua has led nations to the God of Israel ... I was genetically born a blind pagan of the nations and Yeshua led me to the God of Israel ... so that prophecy is proven from my perspective.
From where I look I see Yeshua as God's annointed King who rules from Jerusalem and is certainly the King I wish to follow and obey. He suffered and then rose with power. He defeats the enemy of sin that would keep us from God. What more could anyone want?
The Kingdom comes not with physical observation.
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 17, 2006 18:25:16 GMT -8
My friend, Scripture tell us that the sacrifices, the physical sacrifices, are a statute "For Ever" or, lit. "To eternity." I do desire a physical Temple, because Yeshua said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments." I cannot keep all His commandments until there is a Temple or a Tabernacle (as it is written that He wil rebuild the Tabernacle of David) and I desire, with all my heart, to do that.
You say that the kingdom comes not with physical observation. But Jacob teaches, "Would you know, o weak man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20 (Lamsa)
Shalom,
David
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Oct 18, 2006 23:51:58 GMT -8
Yes, very good points achim. Two Mashiachs; Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David beautifully fulfills both prophecies. The suffering servant being cut off before the destruction of the last Temple and the reigning King Messiah whom will build the next Temple. He will once again establish the Cohanim and the Levi'im and ministers before YHVH. This is clearly documented in the book of Yechezk'el (Ezek.) amongst other books.
Shalom,
Reuel
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Seeker2
Junior Member
"I will seek Your face in righousness;I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness."
Posts: 53
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Post by Seeker2 on Oct 19, 2006 17:27:32 GMT -8
As I am new to this subject, I must seek clarification on this point...Is it agreed that since Yeshua was not a Levite or Kohen that He could not serve as Priest?? Hmmmm...I don't know if I can go with that one. The bible teaches that He is serving in that role now in the heavenly temple. He is a Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek (who was not a Levite either). Also, I think the expectation is that He will RESTORE all things at His coming, which will make it legal once more for the firstborn to perform the role as priest as origionally intended. This being said, the Levites may not cease their function (nor the Kohen), but perhaps under the High Priest Yeshua. Comments?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Oct 22, 2006 14:05:43 GMT -8
This is exactly what I am suggesting and what I believe the book of Yechezkel (Ezek.) teaches us.
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 22, 2006 14:41:47 GMT -8
I think so often we look at it as an either-or. Either Malkhetzedeq, or Levi. But I tend to believe that the answer is both-and.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Oct 22, 2006 15:10:57 GMT -8
I would also tend to agree that they are dual priesthoods operating together.
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Post by Mark on May 22, 2007 4:41:46 GMT -8
It is worth noting, and cause for much specualtion that in Luke 1:36, Elizabeth is described as Mary's cousin. The Greek word is sun-gunace, meaning a relative within one generation. This would mean that though Mary is a Judahite, her mother was a Levite. Now comes the speculation part- and don't build any new theologies on this one; but it is an interesting consideration: suppose Mary's Mom had no brothers. If this is the case, then based on Numbers 27, the priestly heritage may legally pass to Yeshua as well as the royal heritage. This idea is significant in we look at the defining characteristics of the Melichiadekin priesthood: without beginning or end, Prince of Peace and both King and Priest. (See Hebrews 7). This would make even the change in the priesthood fit within the boundaries of the legal definition.
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Post by Mark on Oct 21, 2007 3:47:52 GMT -8
The second qualifier used to deny Yeshua as Messiah is that He did not regather the Jews of the diaspora back to the land of Israel. In fact, looking at Acts 8:1, the result of His ministry was quite the opposite. Some will even argue that His teaching was to abandon Jerusalem as God's Holy City (John 4:21-24).
Any thots, yaw'll?
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Post by Onefaith on Dec 4, 2007 10:10:38 GMT -8
The first argument that the Jew will give us that Yeshua is not the Messiah is that He did not fulfill all the prophecies that are definitive of who the Messiah must be. When applying definitive characteristics, it doesn't matter how many agree. Even if one criteria is not met, this voids the qualification. Yeshua has not built the third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28) Yeshua has not gathered all Jews back to the land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6) Yeshua has not taught the nations to love Adonai and to submit to Him and to the teachings of  . (Zechariah 14:9). One question. He has not gathered all the Jews back to the Land. What about the Gentiles? Where do Gentiles play in this? That has kind of confused me. Since we are grafted in so we are now considered Jews? We are the Sojourn/stranger among them right? Did I just answer my question? |
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Post by Mark on Dec 6, 2007 7:19:13 GMT -8
Great question... and you're certainly not going to get a straight answer from me! Paul defines a Jew as anyone who is walking in a relationship with Adonai through submission to (Romans 2:25-29). Yet, Messiah said, "I am not come but to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24). Yet, then Paul says that it is Messiah who has broken down the "middle wall of partition... making the twain (Jew and gentile) one new man." (Ephesians 2:13-15). Dizzying, isn't it? We know that Messiah Yeshua is the fulfillment of the prophecy to Abraham, that through Him shall all the nations of the world receive blessing..." Yet, it is not until after His resurrection that the commission is given to His disciples to go out into all the world and teach all nations. Messiah's ministry was only to Israel. First, we need to understand what is the "middle wall or partition." In many churches we are taught that this division is the curtain that separates the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place inside the biblical Tabernacle model. This cannot be the case, mainly because what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2 separates Jew from gentile. The curtain separates all men from Adonai. Yet, in Herod's Temple, the Temple contemporary to Paul, there was a wall that separated an outer court (the Court of the gentiles) from the Court of the Jews, were offerings and sacrifice could be made. In the Court of the gentiles, those who were not complete converts could enter to learn and study Judaism; but were not allowed to participate in ritual worship. This partition is not described to Moses, nor did it exist in Solomon's Temple; but was added as a response to the infiltration of Greek philosophy into Jewish life after Alexander the Great. So, if Messiah only came to the Jew, how was it that He broke down this middle wall of partition? What was His relationship to the gentile, and where do we, as gentiles, fit into this exclusively Jewish faith? The answer lies in how Messiah Yeshua related with gentiles in His path. First, we have the Centurion who, in Luke 7:3 is described as one who loved Israel and had even built a synagogue. He was a foreigner; but had allaigned himself with Israel as best he could under the conditions. Next we have the Samaritan leper in Luke 17. He also had joined himself with the Israelites. Everyone we meet in Messiah Yeshua's path are either Jewish or assimilated into the Jewish culture except for two people. The first is the Samaritan woman at the well. It's very interesting how He speaks to her. The story is in John chapter 4. In verse 22 He says to her, "We worship what we know. YOu don't even know what it is you worship because Salvation is of the Jews." This idea is echoed by Paul in Romans 3:1-2 where he says that unto the Jew has been given the oracles (the mind) of God." So, He tells this woman, "If you want to understand who God is all about, you need to understand it within a Jewish context. God is Spirit, and being spiritual is important; but you have to have the truth in there also." (...an aspect conveniently ignored by our modern Church.) The last gal that we need to address is the Syro-Phonecian woman in Matthew 15 and Mark 7. He ignores her, then is inclined to send her away without granting her request. Why? This is where He tells us that He is not sent but to the lost sheep of Israel. God's love for us is unconditional. It doesn't matter who we are, where we've come from or what we've done in life. His grace extended to us is absolutely unconditional. Yet, it is we who place conditions upon the relationship. This woman came to Him and said, "I want the blessing, I want the benefit; but I am not willing to identify with the chosen people. I want to worship You in Spirit; but this truth bit is too much for me." Her request is finally granted when she acknowkedges the relationship between the people Israel and the nations. Messiah broke down the middle wall of partition, the barrier to the gentiles, by dispelling the argument that ethnicity is the qualifier for blessing. It is not your geneology but your attachment, regardless of who you were before. Does that make us all Jews? No. And it shouldn't. It demonstrates the magnitude of God's grace toward all men. You see, God's covenant is to the people of Israel. He is duty bound by His own word to grant them salvation. He owes me nothing. And yet, I am freely invited in to participate as son and heir along with my Jewish brothers. The prophecies in Isaiah tell us that all the nations will one day become Observant (Isaiah 2:3, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 42:1-7, Isaiah 49:22-23, Isaiah 61, 62 and 66). Has this happened? We see it little by little, though in this age, there is little hope of our world becoming one faith, in submission to the Holy One of Israel. In Luke 18:8, Messiah asks, "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith in the earth?" It is, in the Greek, a rhetorical question that demands a negative answer. He will not find faith in the earth. It is, therefore, destined that there will be a great falling away of the faithful, as we have seen. The odds of the fulfillment of the above prophecies go from unlikely to seemingly impossible. Such is exactly the sort of odds that our God finds interesting. Where do the gentiles fit in? We fit in among our Jewish brothers as worshipers of the God of Israel. When will the prophecies concerning the gentiles be fulfilled? In His time and by His hand, just like everything else. Clear as mud? Mark |
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Post by Mark on Nov 21, 2009 5:25:32 GMT -8
Jesus can't be the Messiah, we are told by Jewish scholars and sages- and have been told for Centuries, becuase he never fulfilled four required prophecies that Messiah must do.
He did not bring the Jewish people back to their homeland. Isaiah 43:5-6
He did not restore the Temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 37:26-28
He did not usher in world peace. Isaiah 2:4
He did not spread the Word of God throughout the world. Zechariah 14:9
Yet, as we look at the flow and progress of world events, this conclusion is short-sighted.
More than 8.5 million dollars has been given in the name of Jesus for the opportunity for Jewish people to make aliyah (return to the land). Several zionist Christian organizations exist as their primary objective to make this happen. This is done so because of a faith in confidence in Jesus as their proclaimed Messiah. It is an initiative that he set in motion and is therefore singularly responsible.
The Temple mount and the surrounding real estate is owned and controlled by Muslim authority. However, large parcels are now occupied by Jewish people and organizations. How is this possible? It is because the Muslims have extended leases to Christians for the use of the properties, whom they pass on to Jewish tenants. The Temple Foundation has all the necessary funds and preparations made for building the Third Temple as soon as it it is politically viable- the Jewish people have not reached this milestone on their own. Christian organizations have contributed millions of dollars and Christian diplomats continue to work tirelessly to acheive this goal, not because of any sense of commitment to fairness or justice; but because of Jesus.
Consider the number of organizations that come to one's mind when looking at the efforts made in this world for world peace. Those who have demonstrated any measure of success have within thier founding definition a commitment to Christian ideals and, in the founding doculmentation a declared commitment to the Person of Jesus Christ. The American Red Cross chose it's world known icon as a recognized Christian symbol so that the world would immediately associate their efforts be received in the name of Jesus Christ. Christian individuals world-wide have a characteristic devotion to benevolence, giving in the name of Jesus for the promotion of peace, more than any other societal faction.
Christian printers such as the American Bible Society and Gideons International have declared their unwavering commitment to get the ENTIRE Bible into the hands of every people group and language in the world. This entire Bible contains the complete Jewish Tanakh. This mission, as growing closer and closer to being fully realized has been a passion in obedience to the commission delivered by Jesus Christ.
Did Jesus fulfill all the prophecies validating His Messiahship before dying on the cross as the Redeemer promised and prophecied in Scripture? No. Yet, there is no hint in Scripture that He should need to- only that through Him it must be accomplished. The Jewish community must re-consider and re-evaluate. They have answered too quickly. Yeshua is fulfilling prophecy even today before our very eyes.
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Post by Questor on Mar 13, 2014 0:11:36 GMT -8
Yes, very good points achim. Two Mashiachs; Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David beautifully fulfills both prophecies. The suffering servant being cut off before the destruction of the last Temple and the reigning King Messiah whom will build the next Temple. He will once again establish the Cohanim and the Levi'im and ministers before YHVH. This is clearly documented in the book of Yechezk'el (Ezek.) amongst other books. Shalom, Reuel
Yet the Temple was Yeshua that was to be torn down and raised in three days. When Yeshua died, the Temple was destroyed, and the remaining Physical one merely standing until the Roman's tore it down. The Holy of Holies was there, but empty...the veil torn, the Temple so much changed by the earthquake that the light from Temple windows fell differently. The physical, stone temple stood, but it was dead, as was Yeshua, until Yeshua was raised.
Revelation 21:22-27 (CJB)
22 I saw no Temple in the city, for Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb.
23 The city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God’s Sh’khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
25 Its gates will never close, they stay open all day because night will not exist there,
26 and the honor and splendor of the nations will be brought into it.
27 Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
But a temple will be occupied by the Beast:2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (CJB)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For already this separating from is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
8 Then the one who embodies separation from will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.
10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them.
11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie.
12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned. The Temple that will be built on earth is yet to be built, but will not be built by Yeshua Ben Joseph Ben David.
Revelation 11:1-2 (NKJV)
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
And the Anti-Christ will be worshiped, and an Image set up in the Temple.
Revelation 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This very much makes it appear as if the Third Temple will be made by mankind prior to Yeshua's return. |
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Post by Questor on Mar 13, 2014 0:34:38 GMT -8
It is worth noting, and cause for much specualtion that in Luke 1:36, Elizabeth is described as Mary's cousin. The Greek word is sun-gunace, meaning a relative within one generation. This would mean that though Mary is a Judahite, her mother was a Levite. Now comes the speculation part- and don't build any new theologies on this one; but it is an interesting consideration: suppose Mary's Mom had no brothers. If this is the case, then based on Numbers 27, the priestly heritage may legally pass to Yeshua as well as the royal heritage. This idea is significant in we look at the defining characteristics of the Melichiadekin priesthood: without beginning or end, Prince of Peace and both King and Priest. (See Hebrews 7). This would make even the change in the priesthood fit within the boundaries of the legal definition.
When the Holy Spirit manipulated the ovum that was being used for Yeshua's body, it would be easiest, and most natural for The Ruach to split the ovum as if for twins, making two identical RNA strands, of which only one Chromosone needed to be changed...and X to a Y, and then re-combine the cells just as if a sperm cell had broken through and fertilized the ovum. Of course, this is how a human looks at it scientifically...for the Ruach, it would take but a millisecond to accomplish.
That leaves Yeshua with the Davidic Line through Solomon to Nathan...the line that was never cursed at one time, and the Aaronic line though Anna.
If, as it appears, YHVH wanted Yeshua to have the Davidic and Aaronic Lines, He would have no difficulty arranging for it, and made sure enough information was left in the Gospels to point to this fact, for it creates Yeshua as King and Priest by Birth. |
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. (Zechariah 14:9).
