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Post by mystic on Jan 12, 2019 6:24:24 GMT -8
Doing more research on Sabbath do's and dont's, I was led to these links: linkwww.ou.org/holidays/shabbat/the_thirty_nine_categories_of_sabbath_work_prohibited_by_law/I must say some of it is very confusing so let me itemize please: Dishes - After eating from Friday night onwards, one is not allowed to wash only the plate/cup/fork/spoon you use for each meal until after Shabbat ends? Carrying - Yes I see now the difference between carrying something and pushing a piano. However, when I think of how many times one carries something daily I have to ask. Since the resource shows: Carrying in a private home is permitted on the Sabbath. It is only in a public domain that it is forbidden.So in the home, I should be able to carry anything from inside the house to my Garage and my dishes from the table to the sink or my clothes into the bathroom when I shower before Church e.t.c? If not allowed to carry anything "in the public", what would I be expected to do with my house keys or money that I give to the church? Heating Food - most of the foods we eat here are a combination of different meals so when heating up it can only ideally be done in a microwave, is that permitted? This below suggests to me that I can use a microwave but not a toaster oven to make toast because that will be considered cooking, is this right? Cleaning up a food spill or mess? Is it permitted if I have someone heat up the kettle for me so when it's ready I can make tea or is making tea itself considered cooking? If it is, can I have someone make the tea for me or can I make it before sabbath and heat up? Making bed - If this is permitted why is it not work? |
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Post by mystic on Jan 12, 2019 9:38:37 GMT -8
And getting back to the topic you guys were discussing, strange, 2 friends of mine just dropped in for an hour, I gave them some Vodka, they had a few drinks, chatted a little and left, is that breaking any Sabbath rules for future knowledge? I didn't have any. I understand I can have some drinks but I would never do it before Church anyway.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 12, 2019 11:23:39 GMT -8
Doing more research on Sabbath do's and dont's, I was led to these links: linkwww.ou.org/holidays/shabbat/the_thirty_nine_categories_of_sabbath_work_prohibited_by_law/I must say some of it is very confusing so let me itemize please: Dishes - After eating from Friday night onwards, one is not allowed to wash only the plate/cup/fork/spoon you use for each meal until after Shabbat ends? Carrying - Yes I see now the difference between carrying something and pushing a piano. However, when I think of how many times one carries something daily I have to ask. Since the resource shows: Carrying in a private home is permitted on the Sabbath. It is only in a public domain that it is forbidden.So in the home, I should be able to carry anything from inside the house to my Garage and my dishes from the table to the sink or my clothes into the bathroom when I shower before Church e.t.c? If not allowed to carry anything "in the public", what would I be expected to do with my house keys or money that I give to the church? Heating Food - most of the foods we eat here are a combination of different meals so when heating up it can only ideally be done in a microwave, is that permitted? This below suggests to me that I can use a microwave but not a toaster oven to make toast because that will be considered cooking, is this right? Cleaning up a food spill or mess? Is it permitted if I have someone heat up the kettle for me so when it's ready I can make tea or is making tea itself considered cooking? If it is, can I have someone make the tea for me or can I make it before sabbath and heat up? Making bed - If this is permitted why is it not work? I think your best bet may be to read the passages they refer to before deciding how or even if you want to apply them to your life. I'm going to look through them for my own understanding and thinking so thanks for posting, but I don't think we need to be so worried over this. For example, I briefly read the picking things up explanation referencing Exodus 16. In context, the issue wasn't picking mana up, it was lack of faith in G-d. G-d said cook enough the day before because there would be no mana to pick up on the seventh day, but some people still went out on the seventh day to pick it up. They didn't listen to or believe G-d, and trusted more in their own way. Further, they may have somehow been testing Him. Much of the carrying burdens had to do with doing business from what I have understood, and picking up wood indicates the intention to build a fire which was specifically forbidden. So I haven't read it all, but I'm not sure picking up wood was the problem as much as that, intending to do something forbidden, or just doing work as that would be a type of work. I don't think the issue was picking something up, but the worrying and preparing to fend for self that it indicated. We're supposed to just express faith on the Sabbath by trusting in G-d enough to let go of worldly worries and the idea of self-sufficiency that our work can cause. Im trying to show that I think we can disagree based on sincerely sought-after scriptural knowledge and/or give ourselves time to come to a conclusion based on our own spiritual understanding. I don't think we need to worry so much about it if we're really doing what we already know is good and G-dly with a heart sincerely trying to keep the Sabbsth. Otherwise, it will become its own type of work and worry instead of a chance to rest, learn about, and spend time with G-d. |
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Post by alon on Jan 12, 2019 11:40:51 GMT -8
Like you, the Jews wanted a "list." But that list did not always exist. Earlier Jews worked from principles, as laid out in  and very judiciously modified as circumstances demanded. For instance, if a ship was caught in a storm and unable because of it to gain land before Shabbat, it was not allowed to just flounder as the sailors all quit work on Shabbat. They did what was necessary to save the lives of everyone on board. The higher mitzvah in this case was saving lives, so they worked on the Shabbat. That's the problem with lists. They can confuse you a lot more than just the principles can. And remember, this list is from Rabbinical Judaism. I heard one Jewish speaker say the purpose of Rabbinical Judaism is to control everything you do from the time you wake to the time you go back to sleep. Rabbinical Judaism therefore loves lists. Personally, if dishes are in the way (filling the sink for example) or if they stink, I wash them. f not, they can wait till after Shabbat and be washed then. I don't differentiate between containers the food was in and what was used to eat. The principle is no unnecessary work." If I can leave it I do, if not, I do only what is necessary. That makes it very simple for me. Consulting a list and worrying myself to death makes observance a greater chore than just cleaning up anyhow. My wife ha told me stories of the ridiculous lengths some Jews go to in order not to violate a list. Some are not supposed to drive on Shabbat. But they want to go to synagogue, and if not wealthy enough to live within walking distance they drive to within a few blocks, then get out and walk. That's not obedience, it's keeping up appearances! Same with carrying in the privacy of your home but not in public. If it is necessary to carry something, do it. Keys would be a great example, as you probably need to lock the house, and would most likely want to get back in at some point. I carry my Bible, a notepad, a small organizer and some record books every time I attend shul. I have responsibilities which I must fulfill in our organization. Others just carry their Bibles and notes, tallitoth, one carries a shofar ... but no one carries anything they don't need to. It's that simple- if it is not necessary, don't carry it. If it is, we do. Some say using modern appliances like a microwave or electric kettle is permitted, I personally do not use them. They may be easy enough to not be much work, but the principle is not how much, but is it necessary. There are all manner of dishes which can be eaten cold, and which will keep if made the day before. However a crock pot meal made Friday afternoon and left to heat is not a violation. So you have options without breaking the prohibition on cooking. Rewarming food for Oneg however, as long as there is no cooking involved is permitted by everyone I know of; even though it involves carrying large amounts of food and restarting a fire or electric heat to warm it. Some Jews would go to extremes to not violate their lists yet still get around he commandment. According to my wife, they ask Gentiles to come in and adjust the heat or start the kettle. That's more work than just making the adjustment. And anyone should be able to forgo hot drinks one day a week. It's also not being a very good "light" to the Gentiles, since they probably think you are crazy after turning lights on or off and making simple adjustments and whatever other small chore you had them do because your list said you can't. Putting a hood over the stove to prevent your adjusting a flame is going to extremes in order to keep a list, and has nothing to do with God. Remember, God wants us to use good judgement, not put a cover on everything. And my judgement would be if I left a warming fire on so I did not have to start it on Shabbat, but I saw the heat needed to be adjusted or the food would be ruined, that would be an example of "necessary work" which is best and easiest dealt with by turning the doggone knob and moving on! It is ridiculous to go to extreme lengths, working harder and breaking up your Shabbat peace just to observe a list! If God understood even He can't give a list to cover every situation, why would we think the Rabbonim can do any better? And I am sure He created the world that way on purpose just so we'd have to learn to think for ourselves, but with the mindset we are trying to do what is right in His eyes and not our own! Yes, I clean up my messes. But if I splash water all over the sink, it doesn't mean I can now clean the bathroom. I just wipe up my mess and move on. I'd say that isn't going to throw the universe out of whack. Make your bed. Just don't change the sheets or anything extra. Now again, this is all me. It's how I try to observe Shabbat using the principles I find in . Principles, not lists. Does this mean I never read that list on your website there? It's a common list found throughout Judaism. So yes, I've read it. But even then I am looking more for the principles that guided the Rabbonim to write that list, not trying to memorize the list itself. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jan 12, 2019 11:47:09 GMT -8
And getting back to the topic you guys were discussing, strange, 2 friends of mine just dropped in for an hour, I gave them some Vodka, they had a few drinks, chatted a little and left, is that breaking any Sabbath rules for future knowledge? I didn't have any. I understand I can have some drinks but I would never do it before Church anyway. If friends drop by, and they respect your Sabbath (don't interfere with your going to shul, don't try to get you to do things you shouldn't, or otherwise break your Sabbath peace) then being hospitable is fine. It can even be a great opportunity to witness. But you'll have to judge that for yourself on a case by case basis. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 12, 2019 12:33:32 GMT -8
I like the list just so I can think through my own understanding more thoroughly, but don't consult the list at the expense of scripture because Yeshua told us that Rabbinic Judaism actually at times violates Torah. I would say asking someone in to your home to heat up your food, but not eating it with them would probably be a good example of the wrong heart in keeping Torah. Yeshua would never have done that. He is our example. Praise G-d, He didn't walk pass the people begging to be healed, desperate to be brought in to the Temple, and just make His own way there. I think we need to do our best but also recognize opportunities that may seem like work, but are actually a chance to bring other people along.
If you bring someone into your home then there should be at least the understanding that you may be being called on to bring them closer to G-d. That's a really beautiful offering we can make to Him, bringing people to Him even if it doesn't work out to be anything more than agreeing with Him that what He has made is worthy of respect and recognition.
I just don't think people should feel inferior to our observance of Sabbath so I'm trying to think through the possibilities; how to communicate what I feel like G-d wants me to to other people. How do we not distance ourselves from people while we're called to distance ourselves from the world. That's hard.
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Post by mystic on Jan 13, 2019 7:04:21 GMT -8
How do we not distance ourselves from people while we're called to distance ourselves from the world. That's hard. Amen! That's a very accurate statement. I am thinking I should try to follow the list to the best of my ability but what I am seeing is I can expect for there to always be something I will need to make a judgement call on. The buds who came simply came to drop off a heater and computer for me. All my buds know my schedule so I don't have to worry about them coming here during Sabbath to try to encourage me in anything. |
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Post by mystic on Jan 14, 2019 4:50:21 GMT -8
In my case, my mom cooks on Saturdays, since i have no part in the cooking, should I eat from it?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2019 7:46:02 GMT -8
I would. Family is different, expectations and roles, and she's your mom. She would likely rather you eat it than refuse it, and probably determined to cook. I would say honor your mother and try to have a nice meal with her because you otherwise would probably offend and distance her when maybe it's a chance to invite her in time. Eventually you may be able to have the food prepared for her or with her the day before, but for now I just would honor my mom by eating the food she's made as long as it's not something forbidden, and eat it with her.
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Post by jimmie on Jan 14, 2019 10:56:14 GMT -8
Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Something to think on. Very true. But the principle here is that the Cohanim, and later the Rabbonim had to work on Shabbat to perform their duties to Elohim. This didn't mean they could do their laundry or build a birdhouse. Just that they performed their duties as instructed by God. However from this we can extrapolate the principle that there are some acceptable reasons for breaking Shabbat. That what you were getting at? Dan C Alon, the principle that I see here is based on “have ye not read in the law”. If you can find your proposed action written in the law, it is lawful to perform. This answer was given in response to the Pharisee’s claim that Jesus’ disciples’ were breaking the Sabbath by plucking ears of corn to eat. There is a place in the law where we can read this is an acceptable action: Deuteronomy 23:25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn. The actions of the disciples were perfectly lawful. I have heard many sermons on how they were breaking the law but never one on how they were fulfilling the law. That may be because the church is always finding ways to do away with God’s laws. There is one other principle that I use to govern my actions on the Sabbath. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. If my action is not prohibited by God’s law then I can not be in transgression of God’s law. |
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Post by alon on Jan 14, 2019 13:14:54 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 23:25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn. The actions of the disciples were perfectly lawful. ... There is one other principle that I use to govern my actions on the Sabbath. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. If my action is not prohibited by God’s law then I can not be in transgression of God’s law. OK, so your guiding principle is to work from a biblical list. However Deuteronomy 23:15-25 is just a list of miscellaneous laws, not specific to Shabbat. Yet you extrapolated from vs. 25 that it is ok to pluck grain as you walk through a field on Shabbat: Deuteronomy 23:24-25 (ESV) “If you go into your neighbor's vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. If you go into your neighbor's standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor's standing grain.
And since Yeshua upheld that view, apparently you were correct. In fact, the sages had been extrapolating principles like this for centuries before Yeshua. For example, there is a commandment against taking a life. However I know of no outright command to preserve human life. However from many scriptures throughout the TNK the Rabbonim extrapolated the principle of preservation of life. Just a few of these verses: Genesis 1:26-27 (ESV) Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 2:7 (ESV) then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Exodus 20:13 (ESV) “You shall not murder.[ The Hebrew word also covers causing human death through carelessness or negligence]
Deuteronomy 22:8 (ESV) “When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it.
Jeremiah 1:5 (ESV) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
That last one, by the way, is the one an Assemblies pastor read to me in the midst of a heated debate which immediately convicted me that all abortions other than to save one life instead of losing two were a sin. I was winning the debate until that moment. Thus its inclusion in any list on preserving life as far as I am concerned. But there are many, many others just as powerful, yet they don’t outright say “you will preserve human life.” They just illustrate the principle. But here’s the problem: lists tend to contradict themselves. There will always be exceptions, or places where one principle cashes with another. In my example of if the mothers’ life is in peril and it is likely both are about to die, then aborting the child to save the mother would be acceptable. Or what about being marooned and shellfish are the only readily available food to preserve life until rescue comes? The higher mitzvah is thought to be the preservation of life, even though there is no specific commandment saying you may eat shellfish then. So even in working from a list, you must at times choose which is the higher principle and act accordingly. Another example: you live in say Bend, Oregon and your fire goes out on Erev Shabbat in August. No problem, just throw an extra blanket on everyone and wait for day when it warms up. But say that happens in January and a severe cold front is going through. What takes precedence now- the listed commandment not to start a fire on Shabbat, or the extrapolated principle to preserve life? Do you risk the families getting pneumonia or do you rekindle a fire/ restart the furnace? This is the thing, lists are not as simple as just looking for the “thou shalt” and the “though shalt not’s.” And lists are not absolutes. However working from the principles inherent in those “though salt/shalt not’s” as well as other scriptures which may only demonstrate the principles, we have the flexibility to do what is right in changing circumstances of time, place, and conditions. It’s  this isn’t always the case, but for a doctor the choice to abort should be a grueling decision. However if in the end he is relatively sure if he doesn’t abort both mother and child will die, then he should be able to rest in that fact as he shortens a human life to preserve at least one life. And he will be able to stand before God and justify that action. The same with a cop who has to shoot someone to save his own life or that of others; or a soldier who must defend his country. Doesn’t make it easy, and doesn’t mean they won’t all feel the effects of trauma from having to do it. But it does make it right. It’s the higher mitzvah to kill in those circumstances. Principles must guide our actions, not just a list. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jan 14, 2019 13:25:04 GMT -8
In my case, my mom cooks on Saturdays, since i have no part in the cooking, should I eat from it? My wife sometimes cooks meals on Shabbat, and I eat with her. I don't like it, and I always have already prepared food on hand to eat when she doesn't cook, or where I can beat her to it and eat. But until (and "if") I can convince her otherwise, it is just what I have to deal with. And it can be a tough choice, and one where there is no clear right or wrong. It's wrong for her to cook, but there is no way to stop her. Is it wrong for me (or you) to partake? I could rationalize this all day and tell you "sure, it's ok." All I am going to say on this one though is I do feel guilty when I do it. Sometimes our options are just crappy either way. Dan C |
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Post by garrett on Jan 14, 2019 13:44:26 GMT -8
Need hot food for the entirety of Shabbat? A crock pot full of vegetable beef soup (or anything else you can think of). Prepared on Thursday or early Friday morning.
Need a hot drink (like coffee)? A good, big thermos will keep it pretty warm.
Just some suggestions - garrett
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Post by jimmie on Jan 15, 2019 9:22:37 GMT -8
However I know of no outright command to preserve human life. Dan C Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Proverbs 24: 11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? |
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Post by alon on Jan 15, 2019 13:10:21 GMT -8
However I know of no outright command to preserve human life. Dan C Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Proverbs 24: 11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? While not outright commandments to preserve life, those are great illustrations of where we can extrapolate commandments when given principles. In Deuteronomy 30:19, "choose life" is a metaphor for "choose ," choose obedience. Proverbs 24: 11 says we will be held accountable for not helping those who are in danger of death. Neither says outright "Thou shalt preserve life." But they give some pretty strong evidence of the principle we should act to preserve human life when it is within our power. Dan C |
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this isn’t always the case, but for a doctor the choice to abort should be a grueling decision. However if in the end he is relatively sure if he doesn’t abort both mother and child will die, then he should be able to rest in that fact as he shortens a human life to preserve at least one life. And he will be able to stand before God and justify that action. The same with a cop who has to shoot someone to save his own life or that of others; or a soldier who must defend his country. Doesn’t make it easy, and doesn’t mean they won’t all feel the effects of trauma from having to do it. But it does make it right. It’s the higher mitzvah to kill in those circumstances. Principles must guide our actions, not just a list.
