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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2016 6:15:35 GMT -8
Ok guys, I can use some help with this please? So the OJ's are all telling me that if a gentile should observe the sabbath then we are to "purposely" break a few if it's laws because:
So guys, if I were to observe the sabbath then should I purposely break some of it's laws for reason mentioned above?
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Post by kepha on Aug 4, 2016 6:37:26 GMT -8
Is the  not just for the Jews?Did Abraham not keep the ? Gen_18:19 For I have known him, so that whatever he may command his sons and his house after him, even they may keep the way of YHWH, to do righteousness and justice; to the intent that YHWH may bring on Abraham that which He has spoken of him. Now let's look beyond Abraham, the first time we see the Law given fiscally to any body was on the Mount Sinai to Moses. Exo_31:18 And when He finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave to Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of Elohim.† On Mount Sinai Moses was given the Law of YHWH. At that time there were 12 tribes that made up the House of Yisra'el and not just Judah and Benjamin that only later on became known as the Jews. So at the time of giving the to Moses, there was no one known as a Jew. It is clear that the was given to everyone and not just the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. It was given to the chosen people of YHWH. Among the children of Yisra'el there were foreigners (Gentiles) that went out of Egypt with the people of Yisra'el as well that did not want to be left behind in Egypt, and even they were instructed to keep the . Deu_31:12 Assemble the people, men and women, and the little ones, and your foreigner who is within your gates, s o that they may hear, and so that they may learn, and may fear YHWH your Elohim, and take heed to do all the Words of this ; It is very clear out of this scripture that the was even given to the foreigner (gentile) to obey and to learn and not only given to the tribe Judah and Benjamin now known as the Jewish people. The was not given just for the Jewish people, but for Everyone. No where in scripture were it ever said that Shabbat is just for the Jews. They are very arrogant in saying so as pointed out above by the time Shabbat was given at Creation there were no such thing as a Jew. If you keep the you must at the best of your ability try not to break a law, the very definition of sin is to break a law of the , so this guy now are trying to tell you to SIN, is he crazy?However OJ has a lot of oral laws on how to keep the Shabbat that is once again man made and not true. Never could one OJ show me they where right by keeping this man made oral laws about Shabbat. Things like the spirit of Shabbat must be called and all the other laws that was made up by man. Elohim said it is a set apart day for Him, we may not labor, and we must dedicate the day only to the things concerning Him. If it is doing bible study, listening to sermons or any thing to do with Him and the Kingdom. You can rest that day and forget everything in the world that are troubling you and just spend time with your Creators and also have fellowship with others in His Name.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 4, 2016 7:13:20 GMT -8
Ok guys, I can use some help with this please? So the OJ's are all telling me that if a gentile should observe the sabbath then we are to "purposely" break a few if it's laws because: So guys, if I were to observe the sabbath then should I purposely break some of it's laws for reason mentioned above? Sojourners are repeatedly commanded to observe the same commandments of the Jews they are attached to. We are saying we are attached to Israel through Yeshua according to G-d's prophecies and promises, whether they like it or not, but they don't accept Yeshua so.... We are also told that not all Israel is Israel. I personally believe this means they must accept Yeshua to remain themselves G-d's people. Clearly Orthodox Jews will have a huge problem with me and what I am saying, but truth is truth, and I believe this is truth. Bottom line for you mystic is you have to decide whether you are a member of Israel and what is truth. You are caught up in a confusion that is a direct result of the confusion the world has over Yeshua. So is Yeshua truth? The Orthodox Jews you are speaking to will clearly think no and that you are not a part of Israel, but how much do you trust and believe in Yeshua? Is He cut off from Israel because they would think so. We disagree fundamentally so what is your own understanding of scripture and what the G-d of Israel Himself promises? Where and who is accomplishing it? As I mentioned before, they are not G-d and this fear they have about being "encroached" upon reflects their own lack of faith in Him as G-d Himself told them the covenant with Israel is an eternal covenant that He would never forget and Himself ensures. He also promised to bring others to Israel through Messiah. So why all the worry? It is coming from a very human place, an understandably human place especially given Jewish history, but not a godly one. So what do you think G-d said and how much chastisement, hate, isolation, and blame can you put up with for the sake of G-d's will and to show the world Yeshua? How much do you believe in Yeshua? He's the example and we are here saying we are the ones trying our best to live it, but as I said, it is between you and G-d. |
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Post by alon on Aug 4, 2016 8:30:14 GMT -8
Ok guys, I can use some help with this please? So the OJ's are all telling me that if a gentile should observe the sabbath then we are to "purposely" break a few if it's laws because: So guys, if I were to observe the sabbath then should I purposely break some of it's laws for reason mentioned above?
Well, your OJ friend has said that "You should probably go according to your conscience." He also said you probably don't know [their] laws of keeping Shabbath, so no worries. Go with your conscience and worship on Shabath, if that is what you decide.
In addition to what kepha said about Gentiles being at Sinai when the covenant was given (which is absolutely true), I'd like to point out that Shabbath was actually the first and most often repeated of the moedim (God's appointed times) we are told to keep:
Genesis 2:1-3 (ESV) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
To be made holy is to be set apart for God. In establishing Shabbath as soon as He finished creation, God established His sovereignty over all creation. That includes all men. There would be no Jews for well over two thousand years when this was done. For Gentiles to worship on any other day is a pagan practice which denies the sovereignty of God. Their intent may have been pure at one time, since many were deceived. But now most have heard, but their hearts are rebellious to God's clear intent that the "seventh day," Shabbath is when all men are to set aside a full day in which worship Him. And God defined that day as sundown to sundown, not midnight (the pagan witching hour) to midnight.
Genesis 1:5 (ESV) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
So of course, we will tell you that Gentiles are required to keep Shabbath, but not as the OJ do. I will tell you this as a personal testimony- some of the most profound revelations Hashem has given to me were when I was reading the Word on Shabbath. If we honor Him, Elohim is faithful to honor us. So if you heed my advice to narrow your focus (another thread), try setting Shabbath aside for study and see if the Lord doesn't bless your efforts. There will be your answer, and answers.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2016 11:35:23 GMT -8
One Christian told me "We are suppose to rest in the Lord,and rest on that day,have fun,enjoy some good movies,go to the park,or read and study the Bible,or just stay at home and relax." Others are saying it's mainly a matter of "not working", if I were to cook and do groceries on Shabbath [have to get the name right] which I normally do on a Saturday, is that considered working? It's not to me, just checking.
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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2016 12:30:53 GMT -8
Also guys, this resource is also showing [along with what the OJ's are stating] that "nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so"
www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA135/are-the-sabbath-laws-binding-on-christians-today
Can you provide a scripture which shows otherwise so I can refer it to the OJ's please? BTW Dan, it is not my 'friend' who is claiming this but rather a few OJ's aside from my Doc B.
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Post by kepha on Aug 4, 2016 12:37:46 GMT -8
Deu_31:12 Assemble the people, men and women, and the little ones, and your foreigner who is within your gates, so that they may hear, and so that they may learn, and may fear YHWH your Elohim, and take heed to do all the Words of this ; Shabbat is part of the ! it is a very important LAW in the . Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3975/observe-sabbath#ixzz4GOieOHQeThis is but one verse, there are others as well |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 4, 2016 12:45:19 GMT -8
One Christian told me "We are suppose to rest in the Lord,and rest on that day,have fun,enjoy some good movies,go to the park,or read and study the Bible,or just stay at home and relax." Others are saying it's mainly a matter of "not working", if I were to cook and do groceries on Shabbath [have to get the name right] which I normally do on a Saturday, is that considered working? It's not to me, just checking. Alon gave you some really good and practical advice for how you can start feeling more confident in your decisions and what you can do to please G-d and draw closer to Him. Remember He is patient and gracious so this is more about learning than doing at this point for you I think. All of this is for a deeper understanding of Him and what He wants for you, but let's look at the specific commandment. "Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the L-rd your G-d commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh is the Sabbath of the L-RD your G-d. In it you shall do no work: you nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and the L-RD your G-d brought you out by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the L-RD your G-d commands you to keep the Sabbath day" Deuteronomy 5:12-14 Maybe you can talk this through with us if you don't mind. Maybe it's more helpful to you if we don't immeduately put our own ideas in your head. I am thinking of Alon's suggestion here. Maybe as you think it through you will gain more confidence in yourself and trust in G-d because that's what we as Messianic believers have to do. What do you think of each of the activities mentioned by the Christians in comparison to what G-d says if you don't mind trying this approach out with us? |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 4, 2016 13:02:54 GMT -8
Also guys, this resource is also showing [along with what the OJ's are stating] that "nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so" www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA135/are-the-sabbath-laws-binding-on-christians-todayCan you provide a scripture which shows otherwise so I can refer it to the OJ's please? BTW Dan, it is not my 'friend' who is claiming this but rather a few OJ's aside from my Doc B. The entire bible is my resource.  We believe we are no longer part of the "nations" which is proably what the connotation for the word gentile you are referring to is. We are part of Israel. We represent Yeshua's victory and validity, and so what ever Israel is commanded to do, we try to do. Read Psalm 119 please. This is to be our regard for G-d's instructions and commandments. This is how G-d's people are to understand them and consider them, Jew or Gentile, as the distinction being made is between holiness and wickedness. Christians don't understand the commandments or their purpose. G-d didn't tell Christians specifically to do or not to do them because it is clear in His word G-d's people are to do them and be grateful for them. Christianity isn't the religion of the G-d of Israel because if it were it would be keeping His . Read and see. Christians have to basically erase G-d's word to justify what they are saying, then they'll turn around looking for specifics to justify their own ideas after the fact. G-d is clear about how and why He gave . Read Psalm 119 please. What does it say about Christianity that Christians want nothing to do with the Commandments or just want to keep a few on their own terms? |
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Post by alon on Aug 4, 2016 14:45:58 GMT -8
LOL, I have been known to tell some of my Christian bretherin that since not only are they mules, but they are stranger than other mules- so Shabbath is doubly binding on them! 
Seriously, kepha and Elizabeth have already given you some good answers. However if you keep vacillating between us, Christians and Orthodox friends you are never going to find your answers. I go back to what do you think scripture says? Because we all can sound knowledgeable and all are convinced we are right. But what about you? Who do you think holds closer to the truth? Not perfect, as we are still learning and you'll find that no two Jewish sects or Christian denominations agree either. So even if you were to settle on one camp, you are going to have a lot to sort out. But which of these groups do you trust to guide you into the truth in these early stages of your belief? And then which subgroup (sect or denomination) and which rabbi or pastor or teacher? But whatever you decide, pick one and follow them. But never give up or allow anyone to squash your desire for the truth.
Orthodox Jews have a long process if you want to convert. This process starts with their trying to talk you out of it. Most Christian denominations are easy to join, but then they require you to strictly adhere to their own dogma. In Messianic Judaism, we allow God-fearers into our assemblies (those who do not commit to full observance but who do acknowledge and keep much or most of ) as long as they are learning and growing. Since you live in a fairly large town, you should be able to find somewhere to attend whatever you decide on. But you do need to find an assembly somewhere. I think this may be another thing that is causing confusion.
Hebrews 10:25 (ESV) not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
You are fortunate to have a lot of choices no matter what path you choose. Ask Elizabeth how it is not having that choice; having no place and no one with who you can meet with in person. You really do need to make some decisions and go from there. And if later you find you were wrong, you can make changes. But at least you will have some form of a platform from which to learn and then to make those decisions.
Ephesians 4:14 (NKJV) that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Right now you need some focus, not everyone else telling you what their beliefs are. Go to several of the synagogues and churches in your little burgh and see who fits. Who are you comfortable learning with and from? Stay away from those with women rabbis or pastors, those who you know teach false doctrines, those who make you uncomfortable in your spirit. But find one who offers good, solid teaching while also accommodating those like you who are young in your faith. And find a place where you will return because you want to; a place where you can be faithful.
Check their statement of faith, and if you find things there you know are wrong, then leave. Using us as an example, some calling themselves Messianic do not believe in the eternal deity of Yeshua- that He was and is God from everlasting to everlasting. Leave those places quickly.
And yes, I'd like you to choose a Messianic synagogue. But as we've also said, we do not push people to join us, as this is a serious commitment. We do however gladly welcome those who wish to do so. And we don't expect anyone to take on all of until and unless they are ready to do so.
But by all means, keep us here apprised of your search. I mean, what must it be like trying to find a place to worship in NYC!!? It is entirely the opposite of what most Meshiachim face!
Anyhow, that would be my advice, for whatever it is worth. We are still here to answer questions and to help.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Aug 4, 2016 15:08:37 GMT -8
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Yes me must come to our own conclusions.
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Post by mystic on Aug 5, 2016 3:07:18 GMT -8
As I had mentioned guys when first coming here, everything so far is telling me that this is where I best fit in, smack in the middle between Jesus and the . That's great advice Dan, I will try to see if there is any MJ synagogue in my area to give that a shot, outside of that nothing else really, I attend a catholic church only because I have friends there, it's very close to where I live and mainly because Jesus tells me to fellowship. Regarding what you've stated Dan "However if you keep vacillating between us, Christians and Orthodox friends you are never going to find your answers", I had thought that is what would bring me the answers which is why I keep going back and forth between the different forums and faiths but it is now seeming like an impossible task. As one example, I had posted this question a couple of days ago on the main Christian forum I have been subscribing to: I must say I am shocked that only ONE person responded to that question so I don't know what to make of it. Does that mean many christians do not observe sabbath and are scared to discuss it or are simply ignoring that part of the ? Does it mean that they too think like the OJ's that christians are excluded from the sabbath? I wish there could be just one forum where the two main faiths [Christians and OJ's] could openly discuss things and without jumping down each other's throats but no such luck. Kepha, thanks for that scripture, I have gotten a response to it but waiting on the poster's permission to paste it here for further discussion so will report back here on it. Yes Elizabeth, very good "practical" advice from you and Dan which I will pay attention to [thanks]. This question of whether or not christians are included in the sabbath is a key issue for me so I simply cannot give up on this until I have exhausted every possible avenue trying to get an answer so please bear with me guys otherwise it will keep eating away at me and I won't get much sleep. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 5, 2016 6:13:59 GMT -8
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 5, 2016 6:17:39 GMT -8
I wish there could be just one forum where the two main faiths [Christians and OJ's] could openly discuss things and without jumping down each other's throats but no such luck.   Are you sure you want to start WW3 already. Maybe that's the best place to have it. Ya know skip the bombs and the guns. |
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Post by alon on Aug 5, 2016 8:58:23 GMT -8
Our interpretations of scripture and our beliefs are just too far apart. All you will get from asking these questions as a new believer is confused by the arguments. Maybe later when you are studying to become a Rabbi; or possibly for your Doctoral thesis. But for now, you need to just settle in and learn the basics.
If you find a Messianic synagogue (and I can't imagine you won't find at least a couple) then send us their website and we'll take a look at them if you wish. Like I said, not all who claim to be Messianic are, and some are just plain organized in the pits of hell. And these are not always up front when you first go there. The main question I would ask is how they view the eternal deity of Yeshua. If they vascilate or don't answer fully that He was God in the beginning and will be at the end, and if they will not agree with you that He was NOT a created being, then my advice is leave. Don't even discuss anything further, as they are well practiced at sucking new believers into their deception. But there are bound to be some good ones somewhere in NYC. I mean, it's New York ... ya'll got everything!
I suspect the Christians are not answering because either they know they cannot Biblically defend their position, or because they actually do not know why they don't keep Shabbath. I have actually had to explain their churches position on Sunday worship to seasoned Christians so we could continue this discussion about Shabbath! It's just what they do, and while almost all of them have heard of Shabbath being the Biblically mandated day of worship, they've never questioned Sunday worship; and your asking probably makes them nervous.
Dan C
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not just for the Jews?
Are you sure you want to start WW3 already.
