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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 10, 2016 15:49:03 GMT -8
This new system gives me fits trying to work with it as well. I just highlight and copy them, then paste to the new post, type in “_______ said:” then and use the quote bubble. Not very elegant, but it works. Nothing you said was offensive. I just thought we needed some clarity there. A man wrote the Quran. In the first part, the Jews were “people of the book” and he loved them; then he got angry with the Jews and wrote an addition in which he commanded his followers to kill the Jews. Elohim inspired a book (before Muhammad did) and man divided it into two parts. These men also hated the Jews, they tampered with the Word, and eventually they even interpreted what was written to mean they should also kill the Jews. God never said that. If He had, what would make Him any different than the demon Allah? What would distinguish His prophets from Muhammad? It’s not even open for discussion in any true faith based on the Word of God. But men do like it their way … so we hate, we kill, we commit atrocities; all in the name of God. Many Christian leaders are going to have a lot to answer for at the judgement. And they will not be able to say in their defense “But … but … I THOUGHT You said …” Dan C Thanks for clarifying. It is better to make double sure things are clear as exemplified in the fact that that is exactly the problem we are dealing with here. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 11, 2016 2:27:26 GMT -8
We all know where I am smack in the middle between Christ and Judaism. Since Christ's messages were all about keeping the  , I have no issues with following him and his messages. My main journey is to find out and clarify what in the OT applies to ME as I in my heart believes that while God was referring a lot to his chosen people, he also included us gentiles. So what parts apply to us gentiles is what I am seeking. Elizabeth, I hope that answers all of your questions, if not, please feel free to ask any specific question, thanks! Kepha, thanks for addressing what that person wrote. Dan, yes you guys know I don't put too much if any stock in anyone denying the OT and it's laws but OJ's and Christians both say Gentiles are not bound by any OT laws and should simply follow Jesus messages. |
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Post by jimmie on Aug 11, 2016 5:47:39 GMT -8
Dan, yes you guys know I don't put too much if any stock in anyone denying the OT and it's laws but OJ's and Christians both say Gentiles are not bound by any OT laws and should simply follow Jesus messages. I agree, for Jesus said, "If you love me. Keep my commandments." Since Jesus is the Word of God, Jesus' commandment are the same as the commandments of God. After all he did say he could do nothing but what his father bid him to. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 11, 2016 6:09:19 GMT -8
We all know where I am smack in the middle between Christ and Judaism. Since Christ's messages were all about keeping the , I have no issues with following him and his messages. My main journey is to find out and clarify what in the OT applies to ME as I in my heart believes that while God was referring a lot to his chosen people, he also included us gentiles. So what parts apply to us gentiles is what I am seeking. Elizabeth, I hope that answers all of your questions, if not, please feel free to ask any specific question, thanks! Kepha, thanks for addressing what that person wrote. Dan, yes you guys know I don't put too much if any stock in anyone denying the OT and it's laws. Yeshua is not in between Christianity and Judaism. He is Jewish, practiced Judaism, and came here to lead His people to the Jewish . As His followers that is a truth we are called to represent. We can't do that if we define Him according to traditional Jewish or Christian ideas about Him because neither one accepts Him for who He is. G-d gave one law for His people. Who are His people? Those He calls, chooses, and who long to belong to Him. We point to Yeshua as the source of our validity as G-d's people. In gratitude to Him to be His people, we are called to abide by His laws and refuse to run from the truth just because the world doesn't want to hear it. We love Israel because Israel is beloved by G-d, dear to us simply because of who our savior is and His longing for them, and the hope of the entire world. So we work to claim our place through the redeeming work of Yeshua as members of Israel. G-d did not give two sets of laws specifying what's for who and who has to do them or not do them because He is not interested in a two state Kingdom. One G-d, one King, and one law that is His Law. Christians and Jews don't like it, but that's a truth we are here to present because we are here to represent Him. The world won't accept what we are saying and what you seem to be coming to understand because the world won't accept the truth of Yeshua. So no, I don't think you are between Christianity and Judaism if you are Messianic believing like us. You are with Yeshua, and He is in all truth very Jewish. You should run to keep the for the sake of the One who brought you here and to promote His true identity. We are saying all the law applies to you because Yeshua accomplished what He set out to do. He made you His as a Jewish King and Savior. We are now to prepare the way for His Jewish Kingdom, loving and supporting Israel, and showing the world salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22). Keeping , representing Yeshua, and dealing with the difficulties that confronting the world with this truth presents to us is how we are doing that. Edit: I want to clarify that "by running to keep ", I mean enthusiasm for learning and striving to keep G-d's way. I am referring to a determination to do the best you can as a witness for Yeshua and in gratitude for G-d's wisdom and way; a process of growth. I don't mean keeping it all at once and/or perfectly. |
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Post by alon on Aug 11, 2016 9:00:21 GMT -8
Mystic, your Christian and OJ friends are telling you to make a choice now- choose the easy way where obedience means just following your heart. Forget the “Law,” where you have to be obedient. They want you to choose before anyone can correct all your misconceptions; things like you have to obey perfectly or you are doomed. Or that you have to keep all the fences. Or how about under the law, there is no grace. They want to force you into an all or nothing choice based on fleshly desires to be master of your own destiny and do as you please.
You have been called by Adonai to be a witness for Him as you seek out and learn His truths. This ha’satan wants to stop at all costs. They both in their unbelief are telling you to take the easy way. Forget those laws and just follow your heart. I think you are smart enough and know enough already to see that is a lie. You were called to something more, and you’ll never be happy anywhere else but in Messianic Judaism.
The war you are fighting now is within yourself; and you do have to make a decision. Because you cannot seek the truth while you are allowing someone else to shout lies in your ear. Flowery lies; lies that are easy to believe because the flesh wants to believe them. But a lie is still a lie, no matter how nicely it is dressed up or how many people are telling it to you.
When He called His disciples and the cares of the world pressed in to distract them, Yeshua did not say “OK, just come join us when you feel like it.” He said:
Mat 8:22 (KJV) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
You keep going in a circle here with your questions. We’ve shown you where the Word says you are responsible to keep . But you keep coming back to “But the Christians and the Jews tell me I don’t have to.” Are they God? Can they just overturn the Word we've shown you so easily? I cannot answer for them or stop them telling you this, any more than I can stop them telling you to make a decision now. So choose. Tell them and us you’ve decided, and go with what you choose. However if you choose MJ, then let the dead burry themselves for a while. You need to become a disciple of something and ignore all the distractions- especially if your choice is MJ.
Dan C
edit: we're still here and willing to answer your questions. It is just this is not one we can answer. What "they say" is irrelevant, and only has whatever authority you give it. Go with what the Word says. And I think we've shown you that clearly.
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Post by mystic on Aug 12, 2016 2:11:13 GMT -8
Seems I may have been unintentionally misleading you guys on my intentions by posting what other faiths are saying, sorry. I am not being led away from MJ when I post what others are saying elsewhere, when i post whatever someone says on here it's only for discussion purposes and for me to try to understand them better, not follow them or their words. If you guys don't wish for me to discuss what anyone else says on here, no biggie just let me know please.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 12, 2016 5:04:23 GMT -8
Seems I may have been unintentionally misleading you guys on my intentions by posting what other faiths are saying, sorry. I am not being led away from MJ when I post what others are saying elsewhere, when i post whatever someone says on here it's only for discussion purposes and for me to try to understand them better, not follow them or their words. If you guys don't wish for me to discuss what anyone else says on here, no biggie just let me know please. I don't know how everyone else feels, but I was just trying to make sure I understood your own personal questions, confusion, and/or concerns. I don't mind discussing other faith's issues with us, but you should know we will not be able to resolve them with logic and discussion. That's not to say I don't find it helpful personally, but we need to focus on your growth and understanding. Your understanding will come from your own prayer, worship, and study with G-d and the people He leads you to for direction. Yeshua is the point of contention. If you believe in Him as G-d, Messiah, Savior, and are being lead to , then I would say your place is with us. if so, then our obligation is first to you and your learning and confidence in Yeshua and His way, not to refute people of other faiths unbelief. |
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Post by alon on Aug 12, 2016 12:22:04 GMT -8
Seems I may have been unintentionally misleading you guys on my intentions by posting what other faiths are saying, sorry. I am not being led away from MJ when I post what others are saying elsewhere, when i post whatever someone says on here it's only for discussion purposes and for me to try to understand them better, not follow them or their words. If you guys don't wish for me to discuss what anyone else says on here, no biggie just let me know please.
Thanks for clarifying that. It is ok to post that kind of question if you are having difficulty resolving it in your own mind. But in that case, it might be better to tell us where you are at with the question; what is it you are having trouble with in answering it. If you are unsure, tell us how you'd answer and ask if it is correct. Then we could better help you. And be specific. Things like "Christians and OJ's say I don't have to" are vague and really self evident. And it sounds like you are being swayed by them, making an argument that we are in the minority in our opinion. We are! We acknowledge that; however we do not base our theology on public or even religious opinions. But I am happy to hear we misunderstood you in any case, because you are right: I thought you were being pulled away by these friends.
In any case, the advice on getting a good foundation in the basics and finding a good Messianic synagogue where you can worship and fellowship is still sound. And the search itself could be educational. There's bound to be a few in NYC, and we'd like to know what you find and what they say. You are in a fairly unique position there, having choices. Most of us are lucky if there is one within driving distance.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 16, 2016 3:36:35 GMT -8
Thanks for your responses guys and sorry for the late response, I was dealing for the past weeks with my son's 17th birthday which was this past w/e and had 3 of my very closest friends come in from NJ and Canada so I was off the net. I have a LOT to discuss here but will pace myself not to overwhelm you guys. My heart is firmly rooted in the OT and I simply and honestly don't know why, I have had a NT on my desk right here at the top of my keyboard since last year and I have never read not even one page. I want to obey all 10 commandments of the OT but I am still struggling with trying to figure out which laws of the OT relates to me, a modern day gentile, that is basically the root of my struggles.
Christians are basically telling me the OT is not as important to a believer in christ as he NT, my heart is telling me not to put much stock in the NT and to be honest, even though the people mentioned in the NT like Saul and Paul e.t.c while they have their purposes I for some reason am not drawn to them or their works or words. Everything in me tells me to believe in the OT's words and the works and messages of Abraham and Moses and ONLY the messages of Jesus and his works and no other prophet or disciple in the NT. I don't know if that is wrong or right but it is the way I feel, so yes while I admire the works of John and Jeremiah and company, Abraham, Moses and Christ are three main people I choose to focus on.
Yes Dan, I have the MJ synagogue on my radar as soon as things have settled down here after the summer and mike starts school again.
BTW guys, a personal situation has now developed in my personal life and if you guys wouldn't mind I would appreciate very much if you guys can help me to know the biblical consequences related to it, I would especially like to hear from you Elizabeth since this has to do with an ex-fiance, meaning I would like to hear from the female perspective too. Let me know if that would be ok to post or not if ok then I will create another thread for it, thanks guys.
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Post by alon on Aug 16, 2016 8:29:08 GMT -8
Reading your post is like, in the words of Yogi Berra, “déjà vu all over again." I went through the exact same thing you are. Growing up in the Baptist church we got a fair amount of ‘Old Testament’ preaching compared to many Christian churches; but still they focused primarily on the ‘New Testament.’ But it never sounded right to me. Being a kid raised in church I didn’t really think a lot in terms of ‘why the difference in doctrine’ between the two. It just never sounded ‘right’ to me. Now I know why. 2 Timothy 3:13-16 (ESV) while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
This can only refer to the TNK. When that was written, there was no “New Testament.” These letters were still being written, and wouldn’t be compiled into a “book” for another 200-300 yrs. Yet Christians focus on everything as though it is about the NT. Prophetically it could be, however The term for this type of prophecy is “ the Prophetic Past,” where past events or discussions are predictive of future events. The disconnect in Christianity is that this would make all of the OT and the NT to be in agreement! They however focus on the NT and misuse it to create a false theology around it. To make matters worse, when the NT was translated from the original Hebrew into Greek it was made to be a Greek document. The Greeks were pagans, and so it was not only acceptable but expected that the text could be changed to suit the 'new storyteller.’ So the NT was made to sound Greek, not Hebrew. However what you and I must realize is these men who did these things recorded in the NT as well as the original writers were Godly men, Jews under the leadership and direction of the Ruach HaKodesh. The NT is still the Word of God; and as such the truth is still there. But it is Old Testament truth told by men well-grounded in the OT/ TNK. And nothing in the NT disagrees with the OT. This is another reason I advise going slow. Right now go ahead and focus on the TNK. Follow the weekly par’shot and haftaroth. I’m still doing this, not even looking at the B’rith Chadashah portions yet. Once well grounded in the TNK, we can tackle the B’rith Chadashah and other religious writings. And it is these words from the TNK which will “make you wise for salvation.” And once you understand the old writings, those “new” writings will make a lot more sense. As I said, the writers of the NT were Godly men; Jews who were entrusted with the “Oracles of God” (Rom 3:2). So don’t dismiss them entirely. Just for now put your primary focus on the TNK. The only problems with the NT is it was translated into Greek first, then into other languages. A lot of false theology too often goes into these translations; and there is a lot of false theology in our predominantly Christian world based on misunderstanding what these scriptures say. Mostly today this is just men parroting what they were taught themselves in churches or seminaries. But when the church was first formed these false teachings were intentional; lies, perfidies straight from sheol and their father ha’satan. But if we have a grounding in the TNK and an understanding that everything that comes later must 100% be in agreement with what came before, then we can study the NT with more and better understanding. We can be shed of the lies of the church (and just because they believe what they are telling you doesn’t make it any less a lie); we can start to really understand even what Rav Sha’ul has to say! As to “struggling with trying to figure out which laws of the OT relates to me, a modern day gentile,” they all do. However there may be circumstances which prevent us from keeping certain mitzvoth. There are other mitzvoth which may be more important to keep; like with me preserving my marriage. With you this past weekend it was keeping your word to an autistic son. And since birthdays are not specifically proscribed, just negatively spoken of, I’d say that is one of the lower mitzvoth anyhow. And this brings up the point that there is a hierarchy to the mitzvoth. So go slow; increase obedience as your understanding increases. There is a lot to learn, and no one expects us to just step in and do this all at once. That is something the Christians throw at us to dissuade us from doing as God said; “If you keep the law you have to keep it all perfectly.” No you don’t. You just have to do your best, and grace takes care of mistakes or things we don’t know about or understand. I went to church with my wife yesterday. She was getting upset that I hadn’t been for a couple of months. It was a good one- the pastor started with Galatians 5, replete with all the Christian misunderstandings and misinterpretations (which angered her because she knew I was tearing the sermon apart in my mind- just can’t win with women sometimes). But while they would deny it if questioned, there is a bias which many Christians do not even realize they have that underlies all their understanding of the OT, and especially the “Law”- that is that there was no grace in the OT, and consequently there is no grace for those who keep the ‘law’ today. It say so right there in Galatians, doesn't it: Galatians 5:3 (ESV) I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
What they neglect to tell, and probably don’t even know themselves is that Rav Sha’ul was here dealing with a radical sect of Jews who were telling new Gentile converts to the Nots’rim they had to be circumcised and be practicing the whole of before they could be saved. And yes, if your salvation is dependent on your keeping the law, or if you believe it is, then you would have to keep it perfectly from this point on. But no true Messianic teaches this! Salvation is and always was, back to the time of Adam, by grace- the unmerited favor of God. We keep His mitzvoth first because we want to please HaShem; second because there were promises attached to the keeping of those mitzvoth. My advice is stop struggling with it. Accept that it all applies to you. But just go slowly and do more as you understand more. Don’t try to take on too much at once even if you hear of more, which right now you will hear a lot you didn’t know. Don’t think you have to do it all right now. And if for some reason you cannot keep certain mitzvoth, like if your dietary requirements absolutely prevent you from keeping the dietary laws perfectly, then don’t worry about it. Keep looking for alternatives that might work, but preservation of health in the meantime is the higher mitzvah. Hope this answers some of your questions. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 16, 2016 15:27:00 GMT -8
Thanks for your responses guys and sorry for the late response, I was dealing for the past weeks with my son's 17th birthday which was this past w/e and had 3 of my very closest friends come in from NJ and Canada so I was off the net. I have a LOT to discuss here but will pace myself not to overwhelm you guys. My heart is firmly rooted in the OT and I simply and honestly don't know why, I have had a NT on my desk right here at the top of my keyboard since last year and I have never read not even one page. I want to obey all 10 commandments of the OT but I am still struggling with trying to figure out which laws of the OT relates to me, a modern day gentile, that is basically the root of my struggles. Christians are basically telling me the OT is not as important to a believer in christ as he NT, my heart is telling me not to put much stock in the NT and to be honest, even though the people mentioned in the NT like Saul and Paul e.t.c while they have their purposes I for some reason am not drawn to them or their works or words. Everything in me tells me to believe in the OT's words and the works and messages of Abraham and Moses and ONLY the messages of Jesus and his works and no other prophet or disciple in the NT. I don't know if that is wrong or right but it is the way I feel, so yes while I admire the works of John and Jeremiah and company, Abraham, Moses and Christ are three main people I choose to focus on. Yes Dan, I have the MJ synagogue on my radar as soon as things have settled down here after the summer and mike starts school again. BTW guys, a personal situation has now developed in my personal life and if you guys wouldn't mind I would appreciate very much if you guys can help me to know the biblical consequences related to it, I would especially like to hear from you Elizabeth since this has to do with an ex-fiance, meaning I would like to hear from the female perspective too. Let me know if that would be ok to post or not if ok then I will create another thread for it, thanks guys. That's fine with me. I hope I can be helpful. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 17, 2016 2:57:33 GMT -8
Far as I am understanding the Tanakh is a different book from the 5 books of moses? If yes, can you link me to a good online version for reading please?
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2016 3:30:25 GMT -8
Far as I am understanding the Tanakh is a different book from the 5 books of moses? If yes, can you link me to a good online version for reading please?
TNK is an acronym for , Nevi'im, Kethuvim- which means the Five Books of Moshe, the Prophets, and the Writings. Essentially it is the "Old Testament."
www.biblegateway.com/
That link has a LOT of different versions of the Bible, along with other resources. e-Sword is another really good tool for researching scripture; and it does have an older version of the Jewish Publication Society TNK.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Sept 1, 2016 4:19:28 GMT -8
I've just found the best info on the sabbath: www.ecclesia.org/truth/sabbath-how.htmlI don't see that I can keep all of the laws of the sabbath, at least I know for sure I am not there spiritually yet but would it be wise to attempt it? What if I never get it right, would it be making a mockery of the lord in trying? |
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Post by alon on Sept 1, 2016 7:23:15 GMT -8
I've just found the best info on the sabbath: www.ecclesia.org/truth/sabbath-how.htmlI don't see that I can keep all of the laws of the sabbath, at least I know for sure I am not there spiritually yet but would it be wise to attempt it? What if I never get it right, would it be making a mockery of the lord in trying?
That link is to a LONG document. I can't read it all right now, but what I saw looked pretty good.
God doesn't expect us to just start in and get things right like we've been doing this all our lives. We all have a lot to unlearn, and a lot of old habits to break. It is not a mockery to try and fail. The mockery would be to rationalize that something is ok and pretend we only do it because we are still learning. But trying and improving in keeping the mitzvoth, especially concerning Sabbath observance, are pleasing to God.
One thing I saw there was the author was trying to give you principles by which to work. This is something which is being lost today is the ability to understand and operate by principles. He gave examples of things that would be sin to do on Shabbath, even though they are commanded in scripture, and why. Don't just take these as a "list," but learn the principles involved in the "why." I used to train emergency medical responders, and always I'd get questions like "what if this "and what do I do if ... ?" I'd always stress that I cannot give a list of what to do in every situation they'd run into in the field. But if they learned the principles involved they could make their own list as they worked. Then I'd show them how to apply those principles to the questions they were asking. That is what the author is trying to show you. So don't just look at that article and make a do and don't list. Learn why and then learn to use the principle in your observance and you'll do ok.
And yes, you'll make mistakes. Don't whip yourself when you do. Just learn from it and correct yourself, and count it as joy you now know how better to serve and please Adonai!
Dan C
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, I have no issues with following him and his messages. My main journey is to find out and clarify what in the OT applies to ME as I in my heart believes that while God was referring a lot to his chosen people, he also included us gentiles. So what parts apply to us gentiles is what I am seeking. 
