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Post by alon on Sept 13, 2014 19:41:19 GMT -8
Actually it was just a (to my sleep deprived brain) funny play on words. Wasn't thinking about you ... but now that you mention it ... 
Kind of like telling you that if you have the precedent, hide him for a couple more years 'till his term is up! ... Please!!!!
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Sept 14, 2014 17:27:47 GMT -8
Actually it was just a (to my sleep deprived brain) funny play on words. Wasn't thinking about you ... but now that you mention it ...
Kind of like telling you that if you have the precedent, hide him for a couple more years 'till his term is up! ... Please!!!!
Dan C  |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 19, 2014 7:40:40 GMT -8
I have been out of touch for a while. Frank, ... However, it’s still not clear to me why the first day of the year is on the first day of Unleavened bread. As I said, it depends on how you choose to define the first day of the year. I refer to the first day of the year as the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread because of its proximity to the equinox. Equinox is the signal and a corrected Hillel Calendar shows the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread as being the next 15th of a month after the equinox. My definition allows a celebration like New Year's Day on a day God has commanded. I believe all the pagan holidays are based on God's Holy Days but choosing the wrong day. It is the same with Sunday being based on Sabbath but on the wrong day. The equinox itself is also a possibility, though it is pretty hard to determine. The equinox is fairly easy to determine with a reasonable degree of accuracy. If you are interested in a lesson in practical astronomy, I can describe the method. Frank, going back to timing issue about the point on the earth opposite Jerusalem on the globe as the start of the day, would you be meaning that, instead of Greenwich Time, we should be thinking Jerusalem time, and that, as Jerusalem time is two hours earlier than Greenwich time, the international date line in the middle of the Atlantic should be moved two hours eastward of where it is now in relation to Greenwich time? If so, how would that two hour difference affect how things are perceived in Jerusalem? EXACTLY! It has no particular affect in how things are perceived in Jerusalem except for a precise determination of the calendar. I teach this because it appears to be in line with not only the Bible (which I already knew), but this sites halacha as well It is only in line with the Bible when you ignore the specific guidance of Genesis 1:14 and the general guidance of the rest of the Bible (New moon, turn of the year). Does Hillel's computation automatically add in for the extra month, or is that added by visual examination of the barley being aviv/fruit ripening, or done by formula as one sees the season overall is off enough to add a month? And who decides the official Hillel Calender? Are they cross checking it these days based on all the astronomical information available, or going visually? There has been no correction to match astronomical information to the Hillel Calendar for over a thousand years and there is no correction ever planned. Blindly following a formula instead of following Genesis 1:14 is not following the Word of God. You can substitute following Aviv as a type of correction but it is still not following Genesis 1:14. It is nice to agree on something everybody agrees on but it is not following God.
Are you going to follow what God says or what somebody else says?
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Post by alon on Sept 19, 2014 10:03:44 GMT -8
And who chose the equinox as the sign? It isn't in scripture. Your method relies as much or more on man made rules than all the others. Elohim set the beginnings of the months by the new moon. He didn't set anything by the equinox, unless you have scripture that backs this claim up. So after all is said and done, you just end up with man's reasoning and making rules to determine your calendar. Argue for your method if you like, but don't present it as the Word of God because you have not shown this!
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 19, 2014 12:04:29 GMT -8
It is there, if you choose to accept it. The very same verses you use to prove the Aviv also apply to identifying the equinox when you accept that scripture specifies astronomical signals not harvests.
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Post by jimmie on Sept 19, 2014 13:12:44 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Sept 19, 2014 19:39:28 GMT -8
It is there, if you choose to accept it. The very same verses you use to prove the Aviv also apply to identifying the equinox when you accept that scripture specifies astronomical signals not harvests.
Any two of aviv barley, ripening fruit, or lateness of season being the proper manner of determining the calendar.
And I'll stick with the Hilel calendar so as to be in synch with the majority of the rest of Judaism (including Messianism) until the Temple is rebuilt and the Sanhedrin reseated. They are the only ones who have the authority to determine the new moons and the calendar anyhow.
Dan C |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 20, 2014 12:56:57 GMT -8
Frank, The idea of the year beginning in the middle of the month is no less acceptable than the first day of the month falling in the middle of the week. The seven day cycle dose not fit into a natural month and natural monthly cycles don’t fit into a natural year... Jimmie I forgot to comment that this is a very good observation. The simple method for determining the equinox lies in the basis of all practical astronomical observations. Practical astronomy is fascinating. The first requirement is to commit a lot of time and effort to observation. You need a carefully prepared observation point in a raised area with a clear line of sight to the horizon. The first preparation step is to mark a north-south line. This is readily done at night by observing the area in the sky that is in the center of the nightly rotation of the stars. The North Star is very close to this point and sufficient for a reasonable approximation. Next you mark an east-west line by simple right angle geometry known as far back as the Egyptians. In modern description it is called the 3,4,5 rule derived from the Pythagorean theorem. The ideal observation point has four poles at the four compass points. Each day at sunrise or sunset you mark (or simply note) the angle of a shadow from the sun. When the angle is closest to east-west, it is equinox. With careful observation, this is accurate to within less than a day. This is also the basis for a sundial which adds a pole braced at an angle pointing to the North Star. It brings a wry smile to my face to see people attempt to use sundials where the manufacturers averaged angle does not exactly match the latitude of its installation. It is  to see a sundial installed where the angle is not even pointing north. These are clearly only for decoration without even a pretense of practical use. None of this requires any special tools, knowledge, or calculations beyond the principles of practical astronomy. I didn't provide all the details but they are readily determined by careful thought. The same thing applies to understanding the Bible. Think things through for yourself and verify what someone says by examining the facts of what the Bible says. When you see the truth in the Bible and it contradicts the treasured opinions of others be prepared to be told it is just your opinion. By the way, when I said pagan I was also referring to the Roman Catholic Gregorian Calendar. |
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Post by jimmie on Sept 24, 2014 11:02:18 GMT -8
Ezra could determine the first month without knowledge of the barley stage in Israel.
(Ezra 7:9 KJV) For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.
Haman could determine the first month without knowledge of the barley stage in Israel.
(Est 3:12 KJV) Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors that were over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring.
Ezekiel could determine the first of the year and thus month outside of Isreal.
(Ezek 40:1 KJV) In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. 2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
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Post by alon on Sept 24, 2014 11:13:00 GMT -8
Ezra could determine the first month without knowledge of the barley stage in Israel. (Ezra 7:9 KJV) For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him. Haman could determine the first month without knowledge of the barley stage in Israel. (Est 3:12 KJV) Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors that were over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring. Ezekiel could determine the first of the year and thus month outside of Isreal. (Ezek 40:1 KJV) In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. 2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
I am still waiting to see a definitive Biblical method- not something of man's rules called Biblical because that's what you want to believe. Failing that, we'll have to wait for the Sanhedrin to be seated because they are the only ones with the authority to determine the calendar anyhow.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Sept 24, 2014 13:30:53 GMT -8
I don't recall saying what I believe about how the first month is determined. It dose appear however that the barley stage in Israel did not need to be know to determine it. You may add Noah and Moses to the witness that do not need to know the barley stage in Israel to determine when the first month is.
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Post by alon on Sept 24, 2014 15:55:04 GMT -8
I don't recall saying what I believe about how the first month is determined. It dose appear however that the barley stage in Israel did not need to be know to determine it. You may add Noah and Moses to the witness that do not need to know the barley stage in Israel to determine when the first month is.
Dan C |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Aug 14, 2015 12:27:08 GMT -8
In case anyone was wondering, I gave up on this discussion because it is clear that tradition is held in higher esteem than following exactly what the Bible says. I quoted the Bible and attempted to build an understanding of what the Bible says. This was met by some with repeated twisting of my words and ignoring what I said and quoted from the Bible. I left the whole forum because there is so much adherence to Jewish tradition. I dropped by to see what is going on but I will be leaving again. I have started my own forum where the Bible alone is the basis of belief. I would be happy to have anyone join me who seeks truth that is not limited by tradition. I teach and practice the entire Law of Moses including belief in our Savior but I do not practice Jewish/Messianic tradition.
redacted- posting of other forums is a violation of the rules here
Matthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?
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Post by garrett on Aug 14, 2015 12:49:08 GMT -8
Frank - I think that if you take a minute you'll see there are many sincere people who participate here. I've not seen many instances where someone insists on being the final authority. This whole thing consists of people. And where we have people we have discussion, disagreement and agreement. It's very normal.
And I try to remember that this back and forth "banter" is a very rabbinical/ancient way of challenging ourselves and others for the sake of learning more about G-d. There will always be the occasional "prima donna". If there is any banter that I don't have a tolerance for - I just don't bother with it. This even reminds me of the times where Paul had disagreements with other apostles, but they stuck around. The stakes were high.
May G-d bless you - garrett
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Post by alon on Aug 14, 2015 15:33:24 GMT -8
... it is clear that tradition is held in higher esteem than following exactly what the Bible says. I quoted the Bible and attempted to build an understanding of what the Bible says. This was met by some with repeated twisting of my words and ignoring what I said and quoted from the Bible. I left the whole forum because there is so much adherence to Jewish tradition. redacted- posting of other forums is a violation of the rules hereMatthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
to see a sundial installed where the angle is not even pointing north. These are clearly only for decoration without even a pretense of practical use. None of this requires any special tools, knowledge, or calculations beyond the principles of practical astronomy. I didn't provide all the details but they are readily determined by careful thought. The same thing applies to understanding the Bible. Think things through for yourself and verify what someone says by examining the facts of what the Bible says. When you see the truth in the Bible and it contradicts the treasured opinions of others be prepared to be told it is just your opinion.
