God's Sacred Calendar

[Frank T. Clark]

God has specified a calendar. The Roman Catholic Gregorian Calendar is a corruption of God's Sacred Calendar based on man's traditions. We seek to follow God's Sacred Calendar. There is disagreement about the details of God's Sacred Calendar. The majority of Messianic Judaism follows the Hillel method of Calendar determination. Most recognize there are some problems with the Hillel method of Calendar determination. Perhaps we could investigate the evidence for the details of God's Sacred Calendar to reach a better understanding and deeper knowledge of this important subject. I believe Gods respects and accepts our practice of the best that we know. I also believe God expects us to dig deeper into His truth.

The first point I will introduce for discussion is one of the most basic of Calendar determination. The Hillel Calendar is based completely on a formula. Some propose the time of the ripening of the barley is used for determining the start of a year. This is rejected by the rules of this Forum. I happen to agree. I believe this verse provides the proper guidance. I happen to quote this verse from the ERV.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the sky. These lights will separate the days from the nights. They will be used for signs to show when special meetings begin and to show the days and years.

In brief, the "special meetings" are the Hebrew word MUODIM. This forum uses the spelling Moedim. Therefore observation of the sun and moon provides signals for determining the calendar. The formula for the Hillel Calendar is an impressive device, which is often reasonably accurate, but is not based on direct observation and contains known inaccuracies.

If you are interested in the details of my continuing study see: (redacted)

Is the Bible clear that observation of the sun and moon provides the signals for determining the calendar?

[alon]

Aug 22, 2014 14:28:08 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

God has specified a calendar. The Roman Catholic Gregorian Calendar is a corruption of God's Sacred Calendar based on man's traditions. We seek to follow God's Sacred Calendar. There is disagreement about the details of God's Sacred Calendar. The majority of Messianic Judaism follows the Hillel method of Calendar determination. Most recognize there are some problems with the Hillel method of Calendar determination. Perhaps we could investigate the evidence for the details of God's Sacred Calendar to reach a better understanding and deeper knowledge of this important subject. I believe Gods respects and accepts our practice of the best that we know. I also believe God expects us to dig deeper into His truth.

The first point I will introduce for discussion is one of the most basic of Calendar determination. The Hillel Calendar is based completely on a formula. Some propose the time of the ripening of the barley is used for determining the start of a year. This is rejected by the rules of this Forum. I happen to agree. I believe this verse provides the proper guidance. I happen to quote this verse from the ERV.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the sky. These lights will separate the days from the nights. They will be used for signs to show when special meetings begin and to show the days and years.

In brief, the "special meetings" are the Hebrew word MUODIM. This forum uses the spelling Moedim. Therefore observation of the sun and moon provides signals for determining the calendar. The formula for the Hillel Calendar is an impressive device, which is often reasonably accurate, but is not based on direct observation and contains known inaccuracies.

If you are interested in the details of my continuing study see: www.sacredcalendar.info/

Is the Bible clear that observation of the sun and moon provides the signals for determining the calendar?

Sorry, but you'll have to write it up for me if you want me to participate. Something's wrong with my comp because anytime I try to follow a Messianic link I get some list of top ten ministries for "Shinning Light." It'll have to wait at least 2-3 weeks more until I can get my son to look at it.

At least some scriptural references would be nice.

Dan C

[Questor]

Aug 22, 2014 16:24:47 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 22, 2014 14:28:08 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

God has specified a calendar. The Roman Catholic Gregorian Calendar is a corruption of God's Sacred Calendar based on man's traditions. We seek to follow God's Sacred Calendar. There is disagreement about the details of God's Sacred Calendar. The majority of Messianic Judaism follows the Hillel method of Calendar determination. Most recognize there are some problems with the Hillel method of Calendar determination. Perhaps we could investigate the evidence for the details of God's Sacred Calendar to reach a better understanding and deeper knowledge of this important subject. I believe Gods respects and accepts our practice of the best that we know. I also believe God expects us to dig deeper into His truth.

The first point I will introduce for discussion is one of the most basic of Calendar determination. The Hillel Calendar is based completely on a formula. Some propose the time of the ripening of the barley is used for determining the start of a year. This is rejected by the rules of this Forum. I happen to agree. I believe this verse provides the proper guidance. I happen to quote this verse from the ERV.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the sky. These lights will separate the days from the nights. They will be used for signs to show when special meetings begin and to show the days and years.

In brief, the "special meetings" are the Hebrew word MUODIM. This forum uses the spelling Moedim. Therefore observation of the sun and moon provides signals for determining the calendar. The formula for the Hillel Calendar is an impressive device, which is often reasonably accurate, but is not based on direct observation and contains known inaccuracies.

If you are interested in the details of my continuing study see: www.sacredcalendar.info/

Is the Bible clear that observation of the sun and moon provides the signals for determining the calendar?

Sorry, but you'll have to write it up for me if you want me to participate. Something's wrong with my comp because anytime I try to follow a Messianic link I get some list of top ten ministries for "Shinning Light." It'll have to wait at least 2-3 weeks more until I can get my son to look at it.

At least some scriptural references would be nice.

Dan C

Copy the address, and paste it into your browser directly...that worked for me.

[alon]

Aug 22, 2014 19:28:18 GMT -8 Questor said:

Copy the address, and paste it into your browser directly...that worked for me.

Thanks, but didn't work. It comes up when I try to copy the links from HIS site.

Maybe you or Frank can post the links I need here and I'll try again.

As I said, I am of the aviv calendar persuasion, but I can't discuss that here. I am however open to instruction, so if anyone can prove the method used by Syangogue Chavarut HaMashiach I'll be glad to add another post to my "Boy, was I wrong!" thread.

Dan C

[Questor]

Aug 22, 2014 23:57:48 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 22, 2014 19:28:18 GMT -8 Questor said:

Copy the address, and paste it into your browser directly...that worked for me.

Thanks, but didn't work. It comes up when I try to copy the links from HIS site.

Maybe you or Frank can post the links I need here and I'll try again.

As I said, I am of the aviv calendar persuasion, but I can't discuss that here. I am however open to instruction, so if anyone can prove the method used by Syangogue Chavarut HaMashiach I'll be glad to add another post to my "Boy, was I wrong!" thread.

Dan C

Okay!

www.sacredcalendar.info/SacredCalendar.html

[alon]

That seems to work better. Thanks. I'll probably get on it next week now.

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

I did provide a beginning Bible reference going back to the very beginning.

Genesis 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the sky. These lights will separate the days from the nights. They will be used for signs to show when special meetings begin and to show the days and years.

I propose to take this one simple step at a time. Does this Bible verse make it clear that observation of the sun and moon provides the signals for determining the calendar?

The website reference is only offered for those who are interested in the details of my continuing study. It is not required or needed to discuss this simple beginning question. I suspect this thought alone can easily be a big discussion point for those interested in a deeper understanding of Bible truth about God's Sacred Calendar.

[alon]

Gen 1:14 (Youngs Literal Translation) And God saith, `Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years,

This by itself doesn't give a method of making a calendar, just some of the tools we will use. It doesn't even say it is an exhaustive list. Further the signs are for more than calendar events, they are for God's moedim- both the annual feast which commemorates the events and for the events themselves. It is also important to note that the signs, which happen only just before the event is not the event itself; only the harbinger of the event. The sign of an event doesn't happen every year. This is not to say there can't be some signs which occur on a regular monthly or annual basis- obviously they do: the new moon, full moon waxing and waning crescents, suns arc of the skyline changing as the season changes. But where does it say only some of these determine the calendar exclusive of the aviv barley? (Which I can't teach about, but I can ask you to teach, or prove your view. And like I said, I'm not so locked into my position I can't be convinced, but you'll have to convince me to get me to change my mind on it).

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

YLT is also one of the translations I often use. The word "seasons" can be directly traced as an approximate translation of the Hebrew word MUODIM (Moedim).

Agreed. The verse only outlines the tools. It does not specify how to use them but it does specify them. Also agreed that the event must follow the signal. The verse specifies that the sun and moon signal the MUODIM and the year, therefore, I don't observe that there is room to insert another method for these same determinations.

While the signal of a solar eclipse at the new moon is a spectacular signal the time of the new moon can still be known, even when it does not result in an eclipse. There is not the same spectacular signal at the equinox (equivalent annual analogy to sunset/sunrise) but it is clearly identified in the Bible and readily (even precisely!) determined.

Exodus 12:2 This month will be the first month of the year for you.

It is true the aviv barley occurs at about the same time but the time is determined by the sun as specified in Genesis, not the aviv barley. The movement of the sun cannot be affected by weather and drought as the aviv barley certainly can be. I certainly believe God provides something more precise to determine His Holy Days than the stage of aviv.

This next comment comes because I am very precise with the use of words. I could just overlook it but I am not fully comfortable with the words "teach" or "prove". May I just "share" and "discuss" my current conclusions from my studies? :-)

[alon]

Aug 24, 2014 4:54:16 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

YLT is also one of the translations I often use. The word "seasons" can be directly traced as an approximate translation of the Hebrew word MUODIM (Moedim).

Agreed. The verse only outlines the tools. It does not specify how to use them but it does specify them. Also agreed that the event must follow the signal. The verse specifies that the sun and moon signal the MUODIM and the year, therefore, I don't observe that there is room to insert another method for these same determinations.

Not another method, just another tool. That you don't observe the room doesn't mean it isn't there. I could fit a whole slew of things in-between the sun and the moon- both figuratively and literally!

While the signal of a solar eclipse at the new moon is a spectacular signal the time of the new moon can still be known, even when it does not result in an eclipse. There is not the same spectacular signal at the equinox (equivalent annual analogy to sunset/sunrise) but it is clearly identified in the Bible and readily (even precisely!) determined.

This is true, they are precise events. Keep in mind that if you are discussing these as prophetic or calendar events, you are talking about when they are observed in Jerusalem only.

Exodus 12:2 This month will be the first month of the year for you.

This is out of context. God is speaking to Moshe so that he can explain that Pharaoh is not letting them go. It is merely a statement about which month of the year they are in- the 1st. Nothing further is said about calendars, and nothing at all about heavenly signs.

It is true the aviv barley occurs at about the same time but the time is determined by the sun as specified in Genesis, not the aviv barley. The movement of the sun cannot be affected by weather and drought as the aviv barley certainly can be. I certainly believe God provides something more precise to determine His Holy Days than the stage of aviv.

I'm sure you have more than this to back up your case. However what is stated here is your opinion, nothing more. What scriptural evidence do you have to go with this?

This next comment comes because I am very precise with the use of words. I could just overlook it but I am not fully comfortable with the words "teach" or "prove". May I just "share" and "discuss" my current conclusions from my studies? :-)

That works for me.

Dan (still in the aviv stage) C

[Questor]

Aug 24, 2014 16:54:47 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 24, 2014 4:54:16 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

YLT is also one of the translations I often use. The word "seasons" can be directly traced as an approximate translation of the Hebrew word MUODIM (Moedim).

Agreed. The verse only outlines the tools. It does not specify how to use them but it does specify them. Also agreed that the event must follow the signal. The verse specifies that the sun and moon signal the MUODIM and the year, therefore, I don't observe that there is room to insert another method for these same determinations.

Not another method, just another tool. That you don't observe the room doesn't mean it isn't there. I could fit a whole slew of things in-between the sun and the moon- both figuratively and literally!

While the signal of a solar eclipse at the new moon is a spectacular signal the time of the new moon can still be known, even when it does not result in an eclipse. There is not the same spectacular signal at the equinox (equivalent annual analogy to sunset/sunrise) but it is clearly identified in the Bible and readily (even precisely!) determined.

This is true, they are precise events. Keep in mind that if you are discussing these as prophetic or calendar events, you are talking about when they are observed in Jerusalem only.

Exodus 12:2 This month will be the first month of the year for you.

This is out of context. God is speaking to Moshe so that he can explain that Pharaoh is not letting them go. It is merely a statement about which month of the year they are in- the 1st. Nothing further is said about calendars, and nothing at all about heavenly signs.

It is true the aviv barley occurs at about the same time but the time is determined by the sun as specified in Genesis, not the aviv barley. The movement of the sun cannot be affected by weather and drought as the aviv barley certainly can be. I certainly believe God provides something more precise to determine His Holy Days than the stage of aviv.

I'm sure you have more than this to back up your case. However what is stated here is your opinion, nothing more. What scriptural evidence do you have to go with this?

This next comment comes because I am very precise with the use of words. I could just overlook it but I am not fully comfortable with the words "teach" or "prove". May I just "share" and "discuss" my current conclusions from my studies? :-)

That works for me.

Dan (still in the aviv stage) C

If someone in Galilee, where there is much more water falling in the fields, had ripe barley, while Judah was all droughtish, they could get a runner to Jerusalem in time for the lambs to be chosen well before the 10th of the month, not to mention that farmers in a drought could water things around the house to have enough barley to see if it was warm enough to grow, and have an offering ready. All the water in the world can't get Barley to grow in a dry, cold windy winter, although barley has always been a very tough plant...get it sprouted, and you will get a few seed heads. Aviv Barley is in all of Israel, not just Judea.

I imagine that the Aviv Barley people have to verify a lot of naturally growing barley every year, but I understand they watch a wild hillside of the Olivet garden in particular...they want very much to be correct whether the barley is Aviv or not by the Temple location.

[alon]

Questor, you are overcomplicating things. It's the barley in the fields around Jerusalem. Everything revolves around Jerusalem. Same with the siting of the new crescent moon.

Frank, the idea of the aviv setting the start of the month which bears its name is that God sets the calendar. He determines the start of the new year. And thus He sets the dates on which we worship Him. More I can't say- but you can. Why do you believe it is the mathematically certain positions of the sun and moon? And if that is the case, wouldn't the Hillel calendar be the one to use?

Dan C

[jimmie]

(1 Sam 20:5 KJV) And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

(1 Sam 20:18 KJV) Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.

(1 Sam 20:24 KJV) So David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat.

It appears as though David and Jonathan could determine when the new moon was going to be with out seeing it.

[alon]

Aug 25, 2014 7:23:38 GMT -8 jimmie said:

(1 Sam 20:5 KJV) And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

(1 Sam 20:18 KJV) Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.

(1 Sam 20:24 KJV) So David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat.

It appears as though David and Jonathan could determine when the new moon was going to be with out seeing it.

Yes, we've already established the absolute predictability of the movement of the moon and sun. The stars could also be charted and predicted, and the astrologers of the time had the ability to do this. Apparently, by your scriptures even people not bent to astrology could predict some of the movement of heavenly signs.

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

Aug 25, 2014 5:55:03 GMT -8 alon said:

Why do you believe it is the mathematically certain positions of the sun and moon? And if that is the case, wouldn't the Hillel calendar be the one to use?

I already quoted twice:

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the sky. These lights will separate the days from the nights. They will be used for signs to show when special meetings begin and to show the days and years.

Therefore observation of the sun and moon provides signals for determining the calendar. The formula for the Hillel Calendar is an impressive device, which is sometimes reasonably accurate, but is not based on direct observation and contains known inaccuracies that get worse over time. It is possible to predict with a high degree of accuracy a limited time into the future but not with a formula which was not accurate in the first place and has been used for over a thousand years.

I believe the Bible is clear on these basics. I am willing to follow and obey God's Word. There are more details but if the basics are not agreed then it is fruitless to discuss further details.