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Post by jimmie on Sept 5, 2014 13:59:15 GMT -8
Frank, www.torahcalendar.com/ORBITS.asp?HebrewDay=10&HebrewMonth=6&Year=2014The above site appears to use the same rule as you do for determining the festivals. However they set the first day of the year to the first day of the month instead of on the festival as you indicate. My question is why isn’t the first day of the year the day of the spring equinox? Alon, The following is a quote from the site: “The first day of Unleavened Bread never occurs before the spring equinox. This ensures that all three festivals take place within a single year as יהוה specified” Isn’t it true that the barley watchers can place passover prior to the Equinox, Thus having four festivals in one year and two the following year. That would be a clear breaking of the three times a year before the Lord rule. Jimmie
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Post by alon on Sept 5, 2014 16:04:31 GMT -8
Frank, you are laying down a lot of "rules" with NO scriptural reference. The scriptures you do reference are important ONLY AFTER we determine the start of the month of Aviv- the first month of God's spiritual calendar (there are actually 4 new years in Judaism, but we are only concerned with the New Year for God's spiritual calendar). So far you have failed to give me a Biblically substantiated method of determining that New Year!
And jimmie, short answer- NO!
You can end up with an extra month, just like with other methods. But never more than one of each festival in a single year. Som'body been yankin' yor chain there on that one!
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 6, 2014 12:43:05 GMT -8
My question is why isn’t the first day of the year the day of the spring equinox? You need to define what you intend to mean by "the first day of the year". :-) I gave one definition and a method based on evaluating all the evidence I could gather. Yes, I gathered from tradition and even the Hillel Calendar. This might surprise you after my warnings about tradition but I never said tradition was wrong. I only warned about the dangers of wrong traditions. It is tricky to discern the difference. The Bible is not scientifically clear on how to determine the details of the calendar. I gave as my first scripture reference from the beginning of my comment and from the beginning of the Bible where God states the primary basis for days, MUODIM, and years. The rest is based on interpreting those basics into rules according to logic and tradition. Primarily the tradition of the Hillel Calendar. I recognize this is a very deep and complex subject. You can throw stones, if you want. I am open to discussing any flaw you find in my interpreting God's basics into rules according to logic and Jewish tradition. It is highly important to understand the concept of the "world-wide day", which is needed to be specific. This is not a simple discussion. I have summarized over 100 published printed pages of careful analysis from my website into this brief discussion. Even the website does not attempt to explain every detail but provides enough for a person to study to learn for themselves. I am a firm believer in expecting a person to be required to study deeply for themselves to reach understanding. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. We do this study with all the diligence we have because we love Him. Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
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Post by alon on Sept 6, 2014 13:43:27 GMT -8
... The Bible is not scientifically clear on how to determine the details of the calendar. I gave as my first scripture reference from the beginning of my comment and from the beginning of the Bible where God states the primary basis for days, MUODIM, and years. The rest is based on interpreting those basics into rules according to logic and tradition. Primarily the tradition of the Hillel Calendar. I recognize this is a very deep and complex subject. You can throw stones, if you want. I am open to discussing any flaw you find in my interpreting God's basics into rules according to logic and Jewish tradition. It is highly important to understand the concept of the "world-wide day", which is needed to be specific. This is not a simple discussion. ... No stone throwin', but you haven't convinced me. I am still a believer in the aviv method for accuracy and because God sets the calendar each year this way. And I still use the Hilel calendar for continuity when talking with others.
However I do appreciate the attempt to show me your method. Always interesting to see how others do it and why.
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 7, 2014 7:45:59 GMT -8
Then the first month is part in the old year and part in the new year? You can describe it that way for some months. This view is unacceptable to some and leads to the Spring New Moon Rule. I believe the evidence shows that God's Sacred Calendar identifies the month in which the year begins but because the monthly cycle is not exactly aligned with the yearly cycle, there is confusion. The yearly cycle begins at sundown with Passover/Unleavened Bread Sabbath and ends before the next Passover at sundown. Since Passover/Unleavened Bread Sabbath is in the middle of the month, the shifting overlap of the monthly and yearly cycles cause the first day of some first months to be before the equinox. The drift in the Hillel formula currently has the first day of some first months before the equinox confirming the Spring Passover Rule and some after partly confirming the Spring New Moon Rule. Eventually (another thousand years), the Hillel formula drift will cause all first days of the first months to be after the equinox. This is probably what triggers the reaction of those who follow the Aviv looking for a more stable determination. It is interesting to note that all the years I have checked with those who adhere to the Aviv match the Spring Passover Rule. You have to decide whether you accept that God says the Sun is the signal or the barley is the signal. They clearly coincide but which is the signal God specifies? Gen 1:14 (Youngs Literal Translation) And God saith, `Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for MUODIM, and for days and years,
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Post by alon on Sept 7, 2014 15:47:23 GMT -8
Then the first month is part in the old year and part in the new year? You can describe it that way for some months. This view is unacceptable to some and leads to the Spring New Moon Rule. I believe the evidence shows that God's Sacred Calendar identifies the month in which the year begins but because the monthly cycle is not exactly aligned with the yearly cycle, there is confusion. The yearly cycle begins at sundown with Passover/Unleavened Bread Sabbath and ends before the next Passover at sundown. Since Passover/Unleavened Bread Sabbath is in the middle of the month, the shifting overlap of the monthly and yearly cycles cause the first day of some first months to be before the equinox. The drift in the Hillel formula currently has the first day of some first months before the equinox confirming the Spring Passover Rule and some after partly confirming the Spring New Moon Rule. Eventually (another thousand years), the Hillel formula drift will cause all first days of the first months to be after the equinox. This is probably what triggers the reaction of those who follow the Aviv looking for a more stable determination. It is interesting to note that all the years I have checked with those who adhere to the Aviv match the Spring Passover Rule. You have to decide whether you accept that God says the Sun is the signal or the barley is the signal. They clearly coincide but which is the signal God specifies? Gen 1:14 (Youngs Literal Translation) And God saith, `Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for MUODIM, and for days and years, And so I now know how you feel when you cannot teach!
I will say that the aviv method does away with all those pesky problems with the equinox and drift. And while I cannot teach, neither can you just arbitrarily say that is all God said on the subject, nor for that matter how we are to use what was said! But in the end we none of us can be 100% sure; and if we are we probably are accepting a lot of arbitrary standards set by men.
My comp is fixed now, but I've been up since 1:00 this morning and so am in no state to study this sites halacha concerning the calendar methods they use. I'll get to it at some point, but for now ...
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Sept 8, 2014 13:58:28 GMT -8
Frank,
The idea of the year beginning in the middle of the month is no less acceptable than the first day of the month falling in the middle of the week. The seven day cycle dose not fit into a natural month and natural monthly cycles don’t fit into a natural year. However, it’s still not clear to me why the first day of the year is on the first day of Unleavened bread. Is it the possibility of a lunar eclipse to accompany the event? The first day of the month could produce a solar eclipse so why wouldn’t that be selected. The equinox itself is also a possibility, though it is pretty hard to determine.
Jimmie
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Post by alon on Sept 8, 2014 20:50:19 GMT -8
[ The first of the month is the siting of the first sliver of the new moon.
Lev 6:4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
While a Jewish New Year (there are 4) CAN start on a day other than the first of the month, this one apparently does not. The Spring feasts start on the 14th at twilight. I can't say what the aviv barley has to do with anything here, but I can say all the manipulations to change God's plan and decree heavenly signs He did not dictate to set the religious calendar are wrong. So whee is the scripture dictating that the vernal equinox determines Passover and Unleavened Bread? And these set the dates for all other feasts, so this is very important to nail down.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 8, 2014 21:38:45 GMT -8
I took a look at the two sites offered by the rules section for this forum, and I have to say, I feel vindicated. The first was “Is The “Aviv Barley” A Determining Factor Today?” By Rabbi Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky. This one was so full of logical fallacies it would have been a monumental task to catalog them- a task I feel no compunction to undertake. I will just say that to believe what he is saying you must approach this discourse with a prior mindset of agreement with what he says. And he does not agree with the next reference document. Here are some excerpts from the second document, from First Fruits of Zion:
First Fruits of Zion observes the commandment of Passover and Unleavened Bread according to the traditional Jewish reckoning of the year. Although it is true that the year was determined by examination of the barley crop and fruit trees in the Apostolic times and the Mishnaic age, it was the Sanhedrin that conducted the examination and made the determination. Only the duly ordained and recognized leadership of the Jewish community—those that sit in the seat of Moses—actually have the authority to determine New Years and calendars. If it were otherwise, each sectarian movement (such as Karaites) within the greater people of God would quickly splinter off, observing their own calendars based on varying interpretations of the biblical text, the seasons and moon. …
In matters of calendar determination, the rule of thumb in Jewish history has always been to go with the majority. The festivals are supposed to be national in scope, not individual or even local. Unfortunately, in the Hebrew Roots movement, our protestant roots are so deep that we never know when to quit protesting. Our knee-jerk reaction is usually to buck the system and do the opposite of the majority. There is always someone who is going to do it 'more biblically' than the rest of the community. There is no end to being 'more biblical than thou.' Of course, it is that impulse that led us into in the first place. But perhaps we would be well advised to consider the words of the Apostle Paul when he warns the Thessalonicans to avoid those who reject tradition.
In the name of the Master Yeshua the Messiah, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who walks disorderly and does not live according to the tradition [paradosis=Jewish tradition] you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not disorderly when we were with you. (2 Thessalonians 3:6–7) …
Our Rabbis taught: A year may be intercalated [by the Sanhedrin] on three grounds: on account of the premature state of the corn-crops [barley]; or that of the fruit-trees; or on account of the lateness of the [season]. Any two of these reasons can justify intercalation, but not one alone… [The grain and fruit of the following] three regions [are taken as the standard] for deciding upon the declaration of a leap-year: Judea, Trans-Jordania, and Galilee. The requirements of two of these regions might determine the intercalation, but not those of a single one. All, however, were glad when one of the two was Judea, because the barley for the Omer was obtained [by preference] in Judea. (b.Sanhedrin 11b) …
In regard to matters of Jewish tradition, Paul tells us to, “Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Messiah. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.” (1 Corinthians 11:1-2) He goes on in verse 11 to admonish the Corinthian congregation to conform their halachah with other synagogues. If we are to imitate Paul and Yeshua, we must also practice the traditions that they practiced. Their traditional observance was generally consistent with Pharisaic interpretation. Paul himself was a Pharisee. The set calendar as we have it is an institution of ancient Pharisaism. It was instituted by Hillel 2 to unify Israel in the absence of a Sanhedrin and to answer some of the difficult questions that are posed when addressing the Scriptures for proper application. We feel that we are in line with the modeling and injunction of Paul in following the traditional calendar….
Master was silent on the calendar debates of His day. Neither Yeshua nor the Apostles even offer a rebuke regarding calendar issues, with the exception of Paul’s rebuke to the Galatians for "closely watching days and months and seasons and years." (Galatians 4:10)
So it would appear we are to use the Hilel calendar as our standard now for the sake of continuity of the Jewish and Natsarim communities at large, just as I said. It also appears that while the aviv barley is not the ONLY indicator of the new year, just as with the aviv method GOD sets the new year each year based on His physical seasonal variations and the ripening of fruit, one of which may be barley. This method will only be valid when the Temple is rebuilt and the Sanhedrin reseated. So we can be right about this all we want, but for now Hilel's calendar, 6 min. drift and all, is the normative method for computing months, days and feasts. And I teach this because it appears to be in line with not only the Bible (which I already knew), but this sites halacha as well, which I only now know because I got the bugs out of my comp!
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Sept 11, 2014 15:58:04 GMT -8
I took a look at the two sites offered by the rules section for this forum, and I have to say, I feel vindicated. The first was “Is The “Aviv Barley” A Determining Factor Today?” By Rabbi Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky. This one was so full of logical fallacies it would have been a monumental task to catalog them- a task I feel no compunction to undertake. I will just say that to believe what he is saying you must approach this discourse with a prior mindset of agreement with what he says. And he does not agree with the next reference document. Here are some excerpts from the second document, from First Fruits of Zion:
First Fruits of Zion observes the commandment of Passover and Unleavened Bread according to the traditional Jewish reckoning of the year. Although it is true that the year was determined by examination of the barley crop and fruit trees in the Apostolic times and the Mishnaic age, it was the Sanhedrin that conducted the examination and made the determination. Only the duly ordained and recognized leadership of the Jewish community—those that sit in the seat of Moses—actually have the authority to determine New Years and calendars. If it were otherwise, each sectarian movement (such as Karaites) within the greater people of God would quickly splinter off, observing their own calendars based on varying interpretations of the biblical text, the seasons and moon. …
In matters of calendar determination, the rule of thumb in Jewish history has always been to go with the majority. The festivals are supposed to be national in scope, not individual or even local. Unfortunately, in the Hebrew Roots movement, our protestant roots are so deep that we never know when to quit protesting. Our knee-jerk reaction is usually to buck the system and do the opposite of the majority. There is always someone who is going to do it 'more biblically' than the rest of the community. There is no end to being 'more biblical than thou.' Of course, it is that impulse that led us into in the first place. But perhaps we would be well advised to consider the words of the Apostle Paul when he warns the Thessalonicans to avoid those who reject tradition.In the name of the Master Yeshua the Messiah, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who walks disorderly and does not live according to the tradition [paradosis=Jewish tradition] you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not disorderly when we were with you. (2 Thessalonians 3:6–7) …
Our Rabbis taught: A year may be intercalated [by the Sanhedrin] on three grounds: on account of the premature state of the corn-crops [barley]; or that of the fruit-trees; or on account of the lateness of the [season]. Any two of these reasons can justify intercalation, but not one alone… [The grain and fruit of the following] three regions [are taken as the standard] for deciding upon the declaration of a leap-year: Judea, Trans-Jordania, and Galilee. The requirements of two of these regions might determine the intercalation, but not those of a single one. All, however, were glad when one of the two was Judea, because the barley for the Omer was obtained [by preference] in Judea. (b.Sanhedrin 11b) …
In regard to matters of Jewish tradition, Paul tells us to, “ Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Messiah. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.” (1 Corinthians 11:1-2) He goes on in verse 11 to admonish the Corinthian congregation to conform their halachah with other synagogues. If we are to imitate Paul and Yeshua, we must also practice the traditions that they practiced. Their traditional observance was generally consistent with Pharisaic interpretation. Paul himself was a Pharisee. The set calendar as we have it is an institution of ancient Pharisaism. It was instituted by Hillel 2 to unify Israel in the absence of a Sanhedrin and to answer some of the difficult questions that are posed when addressing the Scriptures for proper application. We feel that we are in line with the modeling and injunction of Paul in following the traditional calendar….
Master was silent on the calendar debates of His day. Neither Yeshua nor the Apostles even offer a rebuke regarding calendar issues, with the exception of Paul’s rebuke to the Galatians for "closely watching days and months and seasons and years." (Galatians 4:10)So it would appear we are to use the Hilel calendar as our standard now for the sake of continuity of the Jewish and Natsarim communities at large, just as I said. It also appears that while the aviv barley is not the ONLY indicator of the new year, just as with the aviv method GOD sets the new year each year based on His physical seasonal variations and the ripening of fruit, one of which may be barley. This method will only be valid when the Temple is rebuilt and the Sanhedrin reseated. So we can be right about this all we want, but for now Hilel's calendar, 6 min. drift and all, is the normative method for computing months, days and feasts. And I teach this because it appears to be in line with not only the Bible (which I already knew), but this sites halacha as well, which I only now know because I got the bugs out of my comp!
Dan C
Frank, going back to timing issue about the point on the earth opposite Jerusalem on the globe as the start of the day, would you be meaning that, instead of Greenwich Time, we should be thinking Jerusalem time, and that, as Jerusalem time is two hours earlier than Greenwich time, the international date line in the middle of the Atlantic should be moved two hours eastward of where it is now in relation to Greenwich time? If so, how would that two hour difference affect how things are perceived in Jerusalem?
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Post by Questor on Sept 11, 2014 16:00:45 GMT -8
I took a look at the two sites offered by the rules section for this forum, and I have to say, I feel vindicated. The first was “Is The “Aviv Barley” A Determining Factor Today?” By Rabbi Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky. This one was so full of logical fallacies it would have been a monumental task to catalog them- a task I feel no compunction to undertake. I will just say that to believe what he is saying you must approach this discourse with a prior mindset of agreement with what he says. And he does not agree with the next reference document. Here are some excerpts from the second document, from First Fruits of Zion:
First Fruits of Zion observes the commandment of Passover and Unleavened Bread according to the traditional Jewish reckoning of the year. Although it is true that the year was determined by examination of the barley crop and fruit trees in the Apostolic times and the Mishnaic age, it was the Sanhedrin that conducted the examination and made the determination. Only the duly ordained and recognized leadership of the Jewish community—those that sit in the seat of Moses—actually have the authority to determine New Years and calendars. If it were otherwise, each sectarian movement (such as Karaites) within the greater people of God would quickly splinter off, observing their own calendars based on varying interpretations of the biblical text, the seasons and moon. …
In matters of calendar determination, the rule of thumb in Jewish history has always been to go with the majority. The festivals are supposed to be national in scope, not individual or even local. Unfortunately, in the Hebrew Roots movement, our protestant roots are so deep that we never know when to quit protesting. Our knee-jerk reaction is usually to buck the system and do the opposite of the majority. There is always someone who is going to do it 'more biblically' than the rest of the community. There is no end to being 'more biblical than thou.' Of course, it is that impulse that led us into in the first place. But perhaps we would be well advised to consider the words of the Apostle Paul when he warns the Thessalonicans to avoid those who reject tradition.In the name of the Master Yeshua the Messiah, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who walks disorderly and does not live according to the tradition [paradosis=Jewish tradition] you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not disorderly when we were with you. (2 Thessalonians 3:6–7) …
Our Rabbis taught: A year may be intercalated [by the Sanhedrin] on three grounds: on account of the premature state of the corn-crops [barley]; or that of the fruit-trees; or on account of the lateness of the [season]. Any two of these reasons can justify intercalation, but not one alone… [The grain and fruit of the following] three regions [are taken as the standard] for deciding upon the declaration of a leap-year: Judea, Trans-Jordania, and Galilee. The requirements of two of these regions might determine the intercalation, but not those of a single one. All, however, were glad when one of the two was Judea, because the barley for the Omer was obtained [by preference] in Judea. (b.Sanhedrin 11b) …
In regard to matters of Jewish tradition, Paul tells us to, “ Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Messiah. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.” (1 Corinthians 11:1-2) He goes on in verse 11 to admonish the Corinthian congregation to conform their halachah with other synagogues. If we are to imitate Paul and Yeshua, we must also practice the traditions that they practiced. Their traditional observance was generally consistent with Pharisaic interpretation. Paul himself was a Pharisee. The set calendar as we have it is an institution of ancient Pharisaism. It was instituted by Hillel 2 to unify Israel in the absence of a Sanhedrin and to answer some of the difficult questions that are posed when addressing the Scriptures for proper application. We feel that we are in line with the modeling and injunction of Paul in following the traditional calendar….
Master was silent on the calendar debates of His day. Neither Yeshua nor the Apostles even offer a rebuke regarding calendar issues, with the exception of Paul’s rebuke to the Galatians for "closely watching days and months and seasons and years." (Galatians 4:10)So it would appear we are to use the Hilel calendar as our standard now for the sake of continuity of the Jewish and Natsarim communities at large, just as I said. It also appears that while the aviv barley is not the ONLY indicator of the new year, just as with the aviv method GOD sets the new year each year based on His physical seasonal variations and the ripening of fruit, one of which may be barley. This method will only be valid when the Temple is rebuilt and the Sanhedrin reseated. So we can be right about this all we want, but for now Hilel's calendar, 6 min. drift and all, is the normative method for computing months, days and feasts. And I teach this because it appears to be in line with not only the Bible (which I already knew), but this sites halacha as well, which I only now know because I got the bugs out of my comp!
Dan C I agree that watching the calenders so closely might become just another issue to form factions around. A 6 minute drift in Hillel's reckoning, so long as the season is progressing in accordance with the ripening of the winter-sown barley OR the fruit trees progression towards fruiting, OR both, shouldn't matter enough to become a point of contention. Does Hillel's computation automatically add in for the extra month, or is that added by visual examination of the barley being aviv/fruit ripening, or done by formula as one sees the season overall is off enough to add a month? And who decides the official Hillel Calender? Are they cross checking it these days based on all the astronomical information available, or going visually?
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Post by alon on Sept 11, 2014 18:30:35 GMT -8
The Hilel calendar automatically adds in an extra month, called Adar Rishon, to compensate. It is on a 19 yr. cycle, and I looked it up so here is when the Shanah Me'uberet (pregnant years) occur: the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, & 19th years.
Hilel actually didn't make up the calendar as is usually said. He oversaw the computations which were started before he even got involved (to the best historical guess ... ) but he was the guy that got it adopted by the Diasparaged ( ) Rabbis at large. It is set and recycles every 19 years.
That is the best closest to the truth information I have heard; and is the version I believe so it must be true, right? At least the first paragraph is correct. After that ...
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Sept 12, 2014 5:19:28 GMT -8
The Hilel calendar automatically adds in an extra month, called Adar Rishon, to compensate. It is on a 19 yr. cycle, and I looked it up so here is when the Shanah Me'uberet (pregnant years) occur: the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, & 19th years. Dan C If you look at the keys on a piano, starting at an octave break, those years will correspond to the black keys.
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Post by Questor on Sept 13, 2014 15:20:58 GMT -8
The Hilel calendar automatically adds in an extra month, called Adar Rishon, to compensate. It is on a 19 yr. cycle, and I looked it up so here is when the Shanah Me'uberet (pregnant years) occur: the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, & 19th years. Dan C If you look at the keys on a piano, starting at an octave break, those years will correspond to the black keys. That is really cool! Everything, if you look deeply enough is a pattern created by G-d! It's just like bird songs being mathemically correct, and thus sound beautiful.
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Post by Questor on Sept 13, 2014 15:26:33 GMT -8
The Hilel calendar automatically adds in an extra month, called Adar Rishon, to compensate. It is on a 19 yr. cycle, and I looked it up so here is when the Shanah Me'uberet (pregnant years) occur: the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, & 19th years.
Hilel actually didn't make up the calendar as is usually said. He oversaw the computations which were started before he even got involved (to the best historical guess ... ) but he was the guy that got it adopted by the Diasparaged ( ) Rabbis at large. It is set and recycles every 19 years.
That is the best closest to the truth information I have heard; and is the version I believe so it must be true, right? At least the first paragraph is correct. After that ...
Dan C That is such an 'in' joke that it is virtually not understandable!
For you regular people out there, Alon means me, disparaging those Rabbis in the Diaspora after AD 70, because I don't like the oral tradition added by Rabbi Akiva onwards. But Yehoshua didn't like all of the things being introduced in His lifetime by the Rabbi's, so I have precedent!
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