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Post by alon on Apr 14, 2015 18:04:37 GMT -8
OK, now you are just showing off!
Updating my "Wrong" thread soon as I'm done here ...
This is actually good information since one of the things Jewish people say about the NT is some things are misquoted and others which say "It is written" don't have a scriptural reference in the OT. Could be they are quoting from Deuterocannonical books. Different sects even back then recognized different books as scripture. So thanks for the info.
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Aug 14, 2015 12:33:21 GMT -8
In case anyone was wondering why I didn't participate further in this discussion. It is clear that tradition is held in higher esteem than following exactly what the Bible says. I left the whole forum because there is so much adherence to Jewish tradition. I dropped by to see what is going on but I will be leaving again. I have started my own forum where the Bible alone is the basis of belief. I would be happy to have anyone join me who seeks truth that is not limited by tradition. I teach and practice the entire Law of Moses including belief in our Savior but I do not practice Jewish/Messianic tradition.
web address redacted- see rules below
Matthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?
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Post by alon on Aug 14, 2015 14:46:20 GMT -8
In case anyone was wondering why I didn't participate further in this discussion. It is clear that tradition is held in higher esteem than following exactly what the Bible says. I left the whole forum because there is so much adherence to Jewish tradition. I dropped by to see what is going on but I will be leaving again. I have started my own forum where the Bible alone is the basis of belief. I would be happy to have anyone join me who seeks truth that is not limited by tradition. I teach and practice the entire Law of Moses including belief in our Savior but I do not practice Jewish/Messianic tradition. web address redacted- see rules belowMatthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition? I am sorry, but the posting of your own forum here is a violation of the rules. Furthermore, after looking at your forum I find it would violate several other rules for posting links here.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Aug 14, 2015 15:19:08 GMT -8
... It is clear that tradition is held in higher esteem than following exactly what the Bible says. ... I have started my own forum where the Bible alone is the basis of belief. ... seeks truth that is not limited by tradition. I teach and practice the entire Law of Moses including belief in our Savior but I do not practice Jewish/Messianic tradition. Matthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition? You take a very narrow view of scripture; a view I would suggest is limited to the mainC teachings and false interpretations of scripture. In your view, those of us who practice a Judaic form of worship are bound only by tradition. You were free to leave if you did not like what we do; an option you chose to take. I am however saddened that you would return to write a post insulting our practices and at the same time trying to draw away our meager membership.
For the record, we do hold the 66 books of the Bible to be the highest authority. At the same time we learn much about the customs, political landscape, historical context and even insights into scripture by looking at other documents. None of these have the authority of scripture, but many hold information not recorded in scripture which enlightens us.
I am surprised you don't know this about us here, as you've been a member so long.
You quote Matthew 15:3, but you do so like the mainstream church does this. First, you take it out of context; then you completely distort and lie about its meaning. Furthermore you use the KJV which makes meanings difficult to decipher and thus makes it easier for you to lie. Let's read the whole thing:
Matthew 15:1-20 (ESV) Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides.[c] And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[d] 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Read in context this has little to do with tradition and is more a lesson on circumcision of the heart- your heart condition. Anyone can twist tradition as easily as you sir have twisted scripture. This is not what we do here.
I am disappointed at this recent activity. I wish you well on your new forum, however your account here is closed.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Aug 14, 2015 15:55:34 GMT -8
If I had to describe myself, I s'pose it'd have to be "Prima Scriptura"; scripture first, last, and always the benchmark. However I see nothing wrong with reading deuterocanonical books, some of which carry the weight of scripture, others have errors. I also use commentaries, Talmud, books on history and customs, language ... there are many resources which help us to properly understand scripture. I'm waiting for a good book to come out that explains Sha'ul from a Messianic perspective! Either that or a book entitled "The Words of Paul Written So a Third Grader Can Understand Them." But I'm thinkin' I'll just have to muddle through.
Dan C Nice verbage!
Prima Scriptura, definately, but from the earliest original language, seconded by the earliest translations into other languages in all 66 books. One hopes that someone will not only write the book you want, but an accurate Brit Chadasha in Hebrew so we only need to learn the one language.
No doubt we can get both in the Kingdom, but will keep muddling along until then, as you say.
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Post by Questor on Aug 14, 2015 15:58:12 GMT -8
You forgot to provide the link to that thread...so quietly sneaky of you.
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Post by alon on Aug 14, 2015 16:05:15 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Aug 18, 2015 3:23:16 GMT -8
... It is clear that tradition is held in higher esteem than following exactly what the Bible says. ... I have started my own forum where the Bible alone is the basis of belief. ... seeks truth that is not limited by tradition. I teach and practice the entire Law of Moses including belief in our Savior but I do not practice Jewish/Messianic tradition. Matthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition? You take a very narrow view of scripture; a view I would suggest is limited to the mainC teachings and false interpretations of scripture. In your view, those of us who practice a Judaic form of worship are bound only by tradition. You were free to leave if you did not like what we do; an option you chose to take. I am however saddened that you would return to write a post insulting our practices and at the same time trying to draw away our meager membership.
For the record, we do hold the 66 books of the Bible to be the highest authority. At the same time we learn much about the customs, political landscape, historical context and even insights into scripture by looking at other documents. None of these have the authority of scripture, but many hold information not recorded in scripture which enlightens us.
I am surprised you don't know this about us here, as you've been a member so long.
You quote Matthew 15:3, but you do so like the mainstream church does this. First, you take it out of context; then you completely distort and lie about its meaning. Furthermore you use the KJV which makes meanings difficult to decipher and thus makes it easier for you to lie. Let's read the whole thing:
Matthew 15:1-20 (ESV) Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides.[c] And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[d] 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Read in context this has little to do with tradition and is more a lesson on circumcision of the heart- your heart condition. Anyone can twist tradition as easily as you sir have twisted scripture. This is not what we do here.
I am disappointed at this recent activity. I wish you well on your new forum, however your account here is closed.
Dan C I found the following on the UMJA studies links to www.yashnet.com It should prove instructive:
Dan C
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