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Post by alon on Aug 28, 2014 16:57:01 GMT -8
I already quoted twice: Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the sky. These lights will separate the days from the nights. They will be used for signs to show when special meetings begin and to show the days and years. Therefore observation of the sun and moon provides signals for determining the calendar. ... I believe the Bible is clear on these basics. I am willing to follow and obey God's Word. There are more details but if the basics are not agreed then it is fruitless to discuss further details.
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Aug 29, 2014 8:21:55 GMT -8
Frank,
Genesis is a good place to start.
Jimmie
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Aug 30, 2014 14:44:32 GMT -8
Basic principles, not exhaustive. Once you determine the basic principles then you cannot add anything that contradicts or replaces the principles. You can add additional principles that add details but they must not contradict or replace the basic principles. The principle that the event must follow the signal has been mentioned and is very important and valuable to add. It was also mentioned that a frame of reference is required and that the reference is Jerusalem. One of many references:
Psalms 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
The world uses Greenwich as the center of the frame of reference which is about two hours later in the rotation of the earth that defines the day. However, for us the day begins twelve hours in advance of coming to Jerusalem and ends twelve hours later. The day changes in the middle of the great ocean on the other side of the world from Jerusalem which is usefully a place of very little habitation.
Therefore, in answer to a question sometimes asked, based on these principles. The beginning of the first day of the month must be the first full day after the astronomical new moon (also called conjunction or when an eclipse would occur, if there is alignment). It is interesting to note that the moon will be over 12 hours old at sunset in Jerusalem and likely visible under ideal conditions (except that with modern pollution there are never ideal conditions). We do not need to depend on unreliable visual observation but use the information provided by modern astronomy, which is obsessed with the precision useful to our purposes.
Next we will examine the start of the year.
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Post by alon on Aug 30, 2014 20:15:59 GMT -8
Basic principles, not exhaustive. Once you determine the basic principles then you cannot add anything that contradicts or replaces the principles. You can add additional principles that add details but they must not contradict or replace the basic principles. The principle that the event must follow the signal has been mentioned and is very important and valuable to add. It was also mentioned that a frame of reference is required and that the reference is Jerusalem. One of many references: Psalms 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. The world uses Greenwich as the center of the frame of reference which is about two hours later in the rotation of the earth that defines the day. However, for us the day begins twelve hours in advance of coming to Jerusalem and ends twelve hours later. The day changes in the middle of the great ocean on the other side of the world from Jerusalem which is usefully a place of very little habitation. Therefore, in answer to a question sometimes asked, based on these principles. The beginning of the first day of the month must be the first full day after the astronomical new moon (also called conjunction or when an eclipse would occur, if there is alignment). It is interesting to note that the moon will be over 12 hours old at sunset in Jerusalem and likely visible under ideal conditions (except that with modern pollution there are never ideal conditions). We do not need to depend on unreliable visual observation but use the information provided by modern astronomy, which is obsessed with the precision useful to our purposes. Next we will examine the start of the year.
By "begins twelve hours in advance of coming to Jerusalem" I take it you mean starts at sundown?
Also now, if they are not exhaustive but only basic then this would open the possibility for other methods to be used. So there IS room between the sun and the moon after all ... 
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Aug 31, 2014 7:54:51 GMT -8
Also now, if they are not exhaustive but only basic then this would open the possibility for other methods to be used. So there IS room between the sun and the moon after all ... Dan C Dan, I am going to be patient with you because I believe you do have good intentions. However, your continued attempt to add Aviv to the basic principles, which has no purpose or value except to replace the basic principles, is straining my patience. I have been tempted to walk away from this discussion but I will continue in the hope that we can learn something together and others will also benefit. You lost me. Why does the day change in the middle of the Pacific? It changes at sundown in Jerusalem first, then continuing around the world as the earth turns. By "begins twelve hours in advance of coming to Jerusalem" I take it you mean starts at sundown? When we talk about determining days, months, and years, we must carefully consider the needs of the entire world, with Jerusalem as the reference. Consider what you are saying. There is a local day from sunset to sunset but there is a world day which begins somewhere. Do you understand that your statement means you think that east of Jerusalem is a different day than west of Jerusalem? There must be a spot where this is true but surely you don't think it is at Jerusalem? My statement means that Jerusalem is in the center of the world day. The beginning of the world day starts about twelve hours before sunset in Jerusalem, arrives in Jerusalem at sunset and continues around the world until the whole world is in a different hour of the same day, with Jerusalem in the center. Then a new world day begins and the process repeats. I understand this is a not a simple concept but it makes a lot of sense and I believe it is obvious, once you take the time to study it through. Those who are diligent to follow all of what God says will study not just what God says in His Word but how to apply it to real life. II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. |
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Post by alon on Aug 31, 2014 11:48:53 GMT -8
I think what you are talking about is "daylight" on the one hand and the start of the calendar day at sundown in Jerusalem on the other. One is a physical event, the other the Biblical start of the day; and both coinciding. Right?
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 1, 2014 5:07:58 GMT -8
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. This is not a simple concept but is obvious to anyone who travels around the world either physically or by phone where you meet people who are in a different time zones and experience the changes of the time zones. It is like the difficult jarring concept of Daylight Saving Time multiplied by 24 causing even the day to change.
I am not talking about anything related to the pagan concept of day. I am using the term "world" to refer to a worldwide event. The world makes a complete rotation every 24 hours. The "local day" is the day starting at sundown where you are. The "world day" is the experience of a "local day" by TO individuals through all the time zones of the world. The concept of the IDL (International Date Line) used by all people (but not understood by all) is a valid one but it is based on being the opposite side of the world from Greenwich, England as the frame of reference. The TO frame of reference is Jerusalem, Israel. The difference is only about two time zones but is significant to those of us who want to see things from God's perspective.
Perhaps this additional explanation will make rereading what I said more understandable.
Your statement: "It changes at sundown in Jerusalem first, then continuing around the world as the earth turns.", taken literally, means that ten miles east of Jerusalem is still the sixth day of the week (I agree that pagan names are not ideal but a reasonable frame of reference) when it changes to Sabbath, the seventh day at Jerusalem. In reality, the start of Sabbath begins on the other side of the world from Jerusalem, twelve hours before reaching Jerusalem. Jerusalem is in the center of the change of the day.
Is it becoming clearer?
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Post by alon on Sept 1, 2014 9:16:11 GMT -8
Your statement: "It changes at sundown in Jerusalem first, then continuing around the world as the earth turns.", taken literally, means that ten miles east of Jerusalem is still the sixth day of the week (I agree that pagan names are not ideal but a reasonable frame of reference) when it changes to Sabbath, the seventh day at Jerusalem. In reality, the start of Sabbath begins on the other side of the world from Jerusalem, twelve hours before reaching Jerusalem. Jerusalem is in the center of the change of the day. Is it becoming clearer?
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 1, 2014 9:24:39 GMT -8
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. This is not a simple concept but is obvious to anyone who travels around the world either physically or by phone where you meet people who are in a different time zones and experience the changes of the time zones. It is like the difficult jarring concept of Daylight Saving Time multiplied by 24 causing even the day to change.
As to my not understanding, you are probably right. I'm going through a difficult medical period here and my mind is foggy. So you'll need to be very clear in your explanations; making no assumptions based on preconceived ideas which I might normally sort out. Ain't gonna happen 'till the fog lifts. This may be a while since I finally had to say OK to narcotics. They bring their own special fog to the table. But engaging my mind helps fight it so I'm not just sitting in a corner drooling. So hang in there, as I'm trying.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 1, 2014 12:38:45 GMT -8
Before we move on past Genesis 1, we need to discuss one more verse:
Gen 1:14 (CJB) God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to divide the day from the night; let them be for signs, seasons, days and years;
Before the Flood, there were no seasons as we know them. So let's look at this word "Seasons" as used here.
Bereshis 1:14 (OJB) And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the raki’a of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for otot (signs), and for mo’adim (seasons), and for yamim (days), and shanim (years);
H4150 מועדה מעד מועד mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw' From H3259; properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand): - appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).
This then is a translational error as the word "moedim" here does NOT mean seasons but "appointed times". God is setting His religious calendar, not "seasons" which don't even exist yet!
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Sept 3, 2014 9:34:02 GMT -8
Frank,
I look forward to this discussion. I am a little weak in my understanding in regards to the calender.
Alon,
Season : a recurrent period that is characterized by certain occupations, festivities, or crops.
We may have jumped the gun on condemning the translators.
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Post by alon on Sept 3, 2014 12:38:17 GMT -8
Frank, I look forward to this discussion. I am a little weak in my understanding in regards to the calender. Alon, Season : a recurrent period that is characterized by certain occupations, festivities, or crops. We may have jumped the gun on condemning the translators.
Dan C |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Sept 5, 2014 8:16:37 GMT -8
Frank, I look forward to this discussion. I am a little weak in my understanding in regards to the calender. Determination of God's Sacred Calendar is a fascinating but difficult subject. The concepts are difficult and understanding comes hard because it is often challenging to a person's traditional beliefs. There are many different belief systems that disagree with each other. I suspect that God has deliberately made the determination non-trivial to test the faithfulness and determination of His people.
I REPEAT that I believe God accepts the honest intent of what day a person understands and observes. God knows the heart. The Holy Spirit will guide the honest seeker.
The local day is pretty simple. The seven-day week is pretty simple. Just explaining the concept of a "world-wide" day has left a great deal of confusion but it is critical to understand what day we are observing and what day is the day after the "signal" event. I have given the basics of determining the start of the month (Questions?) but it gets even more difficult in the next step of determining the start of the year. Those who follow God's signals rather than other methods are split on determining which day of the first month that must be after the Vernal (Spring) Equinox. I present all these issues in greater detail at the www.sacredcalendar.info website.
Some follow the Spring New Moon Rule that says the first day of the month must be after the Vernal (Spring) Equinox. There are several reasons why I believe the day of focus is not the first day of a month (the pagan New Year's day) because it is a monthly event. I believe God's New Years day is the first yearly Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
This is called the Spring Passover Rule. Passover is God's New Year's Eve celebration and the fifteenth day of the month is God's New Year's Day. This agrees with the mathematically adjusted original Hillel Calendar formula. Unfortunately, a small error in the simple formula causes the Passover average to fall later in the year by about six minutes/year. After more than a thousand years the Hillel Calendar formula causes the year to start a month late in some years.
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Post by jimmie on Sept 5, 2014 10:56:12 GMT -8
Then the first month is part in the old year and part in the new year?
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Post by alon on Sept 5, 2014 11:18:07 GMT -8
We, or at least I, already agreed to make the assumption that your interpretation of those "basics" are correct. Other than that, the only scripture that has been given to support your case was given by me (Hey, I'm after the rtuth and if something comes out to support the other guy's case, I'll put it up for discussion). But all ya'll Sunbeams and moonies are looking kind of weak right now.
I'm still looking forward to seeing what this "it's 12 hrs. earlier in the ocean" thing is about. 
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
