Where do sacrifices fit into our practice?

[Mark]

This question is brewing in another thread and I wanted to place it under consideration as subject of current obedience- partially because one of the first questions that anti- follks ask is, "Do you sacrifice animals?" Partially because many believe that some of the Law HAS been done away with by the work of Yeshua on the cross.
Knowing that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away, how do we answer the question of sacrificing animals?

Mark

[Chizuk Emunah]

Pretty simply actually. Is the Temple currently standing? Has an altar been built upon which to sacrifice animals as prescribed by ? If not, then there is no way to fulfill the required sacrifices.

As for as sacrifices being done away with after Moshiach, did not Rav Sh'aul say in Hebrews that even the Yom Kippur sacrifice was to continue as a memorial of Moshiach's sacrifice? If had been done away with, surely he would not have said such a thing. Taking that one step further, didn't the Talmidim continue to go up to the Temple after Yeshua's death? And why does one go to the Temple? It is to offer up a sacrifice.

[Firestorm]

;D If we're still having to do animal sacrifices what was the point of Yeshua's death on the cross? Wasn't He the perfect sacrifice once and for all? As a relative newcomer to the messianic movement I find the suggestion that the sacrifices should continue one of its more disturbing aspects.

[Pioneer]

firestorm said:

;D If we're still having to do animal sacrifices what was the point of Yeshua's death on the cross? Wasn't He the perfect sacrifice once and for all? As a relative newcomer to the messianic movement I find the suggestion that the sacrifices should continue one of its more disturbing aspects.

Maybe you should dump the Christian view! His sacrifice was not to be the end of the sacrificial system, but his establishment of his Priesthood, when the Temple is rebuilt the daily sacrifices will resume, then forbade by the AD/anti-christ.
Remember Paul sacrificed in the Temple after the resurrection, he didn't think sacrifices were a thing of the past.

[messimom]

Pioneer said:

Remember Paul sacrificed in the Temple after the resurrection, he didn't think sacrifices were a thing of the past.

Do you have a scripture reference for that? And within that question, were the sacrifices being performed after the resurrection involving blood or just grain and non animal? And did the sacrifices continue after Yeshua's final assention? Thank you.

Messimom

[Chizuk Emunah]

If we're still having to do animal sacrifices what was the point of Yeshua's death on the cross? Wasn't He the perfect sacrifice once and for all?

I understand where you're coming from. It took me several years to figure out where sacrifices fit in. Now I have a question for you Firestorm: If Yeshua did not abolish any part of the , and sacrifices are part of observance, then are we not obligated to offer sacrifices when the Temple is rebuilt?

Maybe you should dump the Christian view!

I appreciate your zealousness. However, Firestorm is brand-new to Messianic Judaism, and that fact needs to be taken in to consideration. Please keep that in mind.

Do you have a scripture reference for that?

It's recorded in the Book of Acts that Sh'aul went up to the Temple with those who had taken a Nazarite vow. This act involves sacrifice. He also talked about going to Yerushalayim for Pesach. At that time, observing Pesach involved sacrificing a lamb at the Temple.

Like I said earlier, if Yeshua's death was supposed to be the end of sacrifices, why on Earth would his talmidim (disciples) continue to go to the Temple to offer sacrifices? Obviously they didn't believe that sacrifices were done away with. Yeshua's own brother (yes he had a brother), Ya'akov HaTzeddik prayed at the Temple on a daily basis. Surely he wouldn't have done so if he thought his brother had done away with sacrifices. And since these men were the closest to Yeshua, should we not follow their example?

[Pioneer]

messimom said:

Pioneer said:

Remember Paul sacrificed in the Temple after the resurrection, he didn't think sacrifices were a thing of the past.

Do you have a scripture reference for that? And within that question, were the sacrifices being performed after the resurrection involving blood or just grain and non animal? And did the sacrifices continue after Yeshua's final assention? Thank you.

Messimom

Nu 6:2-Nu 6:21 Nazerite vow. Ac 21: 23 "Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
24 "Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
A lot of blood letting at the end of the vow.
As the other answer to the subject, the Talmidim kept the moedim as long as the Temple stood.

Ex. 29 is the consecration of the Priesthood, Yeshua shed his own blood to consecrate his Priesthood and as a sin offering for all the people.
Don't you think that if God had meant for his sacrifice to end the Temple sacrifice, He would have on that day destroyed the Temple Himself and there would have been a change in scripture to omit Zec. 14:16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
An end time prophesy. I believe there are sacrifices done for Feast of Tabernacles.
The book of Daniel has the Temple/Sanctuary rebuilt and sacrifices begun then ended.

BTW I wiil try to allow each one to come out of Christianity at his own pace. As for me I was mad as a Hatter when I found out I'd been lied to for 50 years.
But the Dr. Martin Luther Kings old negro spititual "Free at Last, Thank God Almighty. I'm Free at Last." Is appropo for me now. Glory to HaShem! Shalom

[Chizuk Emunah]

I believe there are sacrifices done for Feast of Tabernacles.

Yep. Sure are.

[messimom]

Wow! Thank you for the verses. The fact that animal sacrifices were still practiced by the disciples had until now, escaped me. It always made sense to me that the animal sacrifices themselves were "done away with" when Yeshua became the sacrifice....but then it also makes sense to include the sacrificial system in the comment about festivals and such being a shadow of things to come....Yeshua fulfilled Passover and other festivals, yet we still practice them, so why wouldn't people still sacrifice? I kind of thought that Yeshua fulfilled any need for blood sacrifices, but it would be logical that bread/grain and other sacrifices would remain. And I have figured that when the third temple would be built that unbelieving Jews would resume sacrifices, but it would have no direct consequence to us. Interesting...I'd like to understand this more. So the only reason for Yeshua's death was to consecrate his priesthood and physically fulfill the symboligy in the sacrifices; without doing away with them? Am I understanding this?

Thanks

messimom

[Mark]

Hebrews chapter 10 tells us that the bllod of goats and bulls were never able to forgive our sins. Hebrews 4 tellls us that the same gospel was preached to the patriarchal fathers as that which has been taughtto us: salvation is by grace through faith alone in the complete work of the Messiah.

Yet, how would you communicate such an idea to a people who had nothing to compare it to. Another one of my $40 words that I rarely get a chance to use is substitutiary atonement. It's the idea of transering my guilt onto another. If we look at every one of the sacrifices in the context of Messiah- who He is and what He has done for us, each sacrifice is a demonstration, an object lesson, if you will, describing what is the nessessary work of substitutiary atonement which must be completed by the sinless Messiah. If you think about it, before the Messiah came, how could Adonai possibly communicate such a need to us? The best possible way is through animal sacrifices. So, in the Old Testament days, before Messiah came, the sacrifices were done in faith, trusting that Messiah will come and their sins will be forgiven. In the New Testament, there is no contradiction in this observance, they celebrated the miracle of what has taken place.

Of course, when we say "sacrifice", we often raise our cruelty-to-animals banner to half mast and visualize some gothic texas-chainsaw-massacre, blood-thirsty event. But, I challenge you to read through the sacrificial instructions slowly, sitting in your living room with the lights low and a cup of coffee. They were having a bar-be-que. The sacrifices are (in almost every case) a meal that is shared by the one offering the sacrifice and the priests. It wasn't a drab or somber event- it was a party!

Looking at the sacrifices from this perspective, they aren't so irrelevant or unnecessary. Actually, they're worship. Personally, I look forward to the day we can again begin to worship God and offer Him the sweet smelling aroma.

Incidently, when someone suggests in the Old Testament that people were saved by keeping sacrifices, a strartling response is that this would condemn Daniel, Ezekiel and many other godly men of the Bible to hell. They all lived and died without the Temple to offer sacrifices in- during the Old Testament period (dispensation) of Moses.

[Firestorm]

;DWhat I'm gathering from this is essentially Yeshua's death didn't change a thing! I agree that He didn't come to abolish the but that he came to fulfill it. Fulfill it in what sense? I believe, as do many other messianics by the way, that what He fulfilled was the sacrificial obligation.
None of the temple sacrifices were human so they couldn't completely atone for human sin, and no human was perfect until Yeshua came. Yeshua was perfect in that He was without sin and also fit the physical requirement, i.e., was an unblemished male. If He indeed was the perfect sacrifice that atoned for the sin of humanity then why are any further blood sacrifices required?
None of this, by the way, suggests to me that it means we have to stop observing the food laws or any other commandments. We don't observe the food laws as a means of attaining salvation so that's a different issue.
I have no satisfactory explanation as to why people in the new covenant continued to offer sacrifices. Does the fact that some thing is recorded in the Bible always mean that the practice is condoned, advised or commanded?
Is it possible that God allowed the temple to be destroyed in 70C.E. because He didn't want believers to continue with blood sacrifices after Yeshua's death??
Also, isn't the temple that will be built in Jerusalem being built by those who DON'T believe in Messiah? I read somewhere that there is a group of people in Israel right now who are collecting funds for the reconstruction of the temple but are refusing any donations from supporters who believe in Yeshua.
I really don't think this is something God wants believers to do anymore, but I plan to seek the counsel of my congregational elders on this matter.

[CalledOut05]

I understand your confusion Firestorm. Keep in mind that there is more than one type of sacrifice. You also had fellowship offerings. G'd today asks us to sacrifice some things in our own lives that might be hindering His work. I believe that those sacrifices are just as important as these fellowship offerings. I have had to sacrifice a few things that have cost me emotionally and financially, but I was so much more blessed when I did. I don't believe that there is a bull so pure that it takes away our sin as Messiah Yeshua did. Material sacrifices simply bring us closer to G'd and make us able to be more obedient.

[Firestorm]

;D You've brought up some excellent points CalledOut05, though I was referring to blood sacrifices specifically.

[Pioneer]

calledout05 said:

I don't believe that there is a bull so pure that it takes away our sin as Messiah Yeshua did. Material sacrifices simply bring us closer to G'd and make us able to be more obedient.

Yeshua had the blood of the Father, a babys blood doesn't mix with the mothers, so sinless Yeshua's perfect blood as "Lamb of God" sanctified the New Covenant and Yeshuas Priesthood as well as the sins of the people.

Korban is to "draw close". Not the sacrifice we in the English language think, is to forefit or give up something.

One thing Firestorm, read Jn.5:24 and maybe you can change your view of believing Hebrews. My Rabbi has a TV program teaching Christians about Judahism, his theme song is Mashiach, Mashiach, Mashiach! I believe with perfect faith, even though He tarries, He will come.
By "Believing Hebrews" I mean those who belive in God and the "Word of God" some may be Messianic but others do not.

[Chizuk Emunah]

I agree that He didn't come to abolish the but that he came to fulfill it.

This is also a misnomer and a bad translation. A better translation would be "fill up" the . In other words, give complete understanding regarding observance.

then why are any further blood sacrifices required?

For two reasons: 1. It is required by
2. As a memorial of Yeshua's sacrifice

I have no satisfactory explanation as to why people in the new covenant continued to offer sacrifices.

I do. It's because was not done away with and therefore the sacrifices continued to be observed by Yeshua's own talmidim (disciples).

Does the fact that some thing is recorded in the Bible always mean that the practice is condoned, advised or commanded?

It usually depends on the context. But this case is pretty clear-cut. It is very obvious that the talmidim believed they were still obligated to offer sacrifices as is commanded by .

Is it possible that God allowed the temple to be destroyed in 70C.E. because He didn't want believers to continue with blood sacrifices after Yeshua's death??

Well shoot. If that was the case, then why wasn't it destroyed 30yrs earlier? The Rabbis actually say that the Temple was destroyed because Ya'akov HaTzeddik (the brother of Yeshua) was murdered by the Tzeddukim (Sadducees).

Also, isn't the temple that will be built in Jerusalem being built by those who DON'T believe in Messiah?

Not necessarily. They have merely rejected the image of the Torahless "Jesus."

If we as a -observant Messianic community reached out to our fellow brothers and sisters with the message of the true Moshiach, then we would probably see a different attitude.