Where do sacrifices fit into our practice?

[CalledOut05]

I have never heard the term "-less Jesus." I had always thought that the sacrifices were done away with as well. Can you point me to a scripture verse in New Testament that refers to that? Also, I think that the sacrifices given in the next temple will REALLY make us hated among the nations. I can only imagine what PETA is going to do to protest that.

[messimom]

Also, I think that the sacrifices given in the next temple will REALLY make us hated among the nations. I can only imagine what PETA is going to do to protest that.

lol! I never thought of that. Did you know that during the*holy* day of the Muslim faith in which they are supposed to go to Mecca and throw stones at that big pillar thingy that thousands of goats are sacrificed. We saw it all on some PBS show about some American lady's conversion to Islam. A very interesting show. But do we hear anything about the goat sacrifices happing NOW by the Muslims? Hey PETA, over here...

Messimom

[CalledOut05]

I am in the NRA and PETA is sort of our unofficial enemy. PETA has done things like thrown blood on people and also physically assaulted patrons to certain resteraunts like KFC. The world thinks that anything we do is wrong but if someone else does it then it is ok. You won't hear them take on the Muslims or anyone else because they don't want that kind of heat. But they will protest us because they know we won't do anything to counter it. They cout on us to turn the other cheek. I know though that if they approach the altar in Jerusalem with anger they will be killed instantly. I hope they are not that foolish.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Can you point me to a scripture verse in New Testament that refers to that?

Which references are you looking for? The ones for the Torahless one, or the ones for sacrifices not being done away with?

[messimom]

Okay. As all should do, I went to my teaching elder with this idea. He read through the comments and said, "well, yeah, this is right." And he went on to "explain" why this made sense. Unfortunately, the explanation didn't make much sense. He said I'm still coming at it with "too Christian" of an understanding. And now I'm trying to wrap my brain around Yeshua not being an all atoning sacrifice(once and for all-no more sacrifices ever needed), but merely the Paschal lamb sacrifice of YHVH and atoning for willful sins and so on. And why sacrifices would still be done if we had a consecrated altar-on which YHVH would choose to put His name-and why there will still be sacrifices in the new Jerusalem with tabernacles and what not. So, my question then is, is there a good paper or work or book on this that clearly explains the ins and outs of all this?

I've been Messianic for 5 years and I know that's still a baby to some of you, but for me, it seems as though almost a lifetime. I have learned so much in such a short amount of time. So when this concept hit and has been initially verified, I almost cried at this revelation. Seriously, sitting there in my fellowship holding back tears as my teaching elder explained. I don't know why. I think I was overwhelmed at such a huge misinterpretation I have continued to make of Yeshua's purpose. After all the teachings, lectures, seminars, books, videos, the list goes on...that I have "experienced" how have I missed this? So, now, I am setting out to fully understand His purpose. And I think others would like an understandable literal (or other) reference to help explain. So if anyone has anything they could point me toward, that would be great. Thank you.

Shalom

Messimom

[CalledOut05]

Netzar Y'hudi:


I was a referring to the sacrifices not being done away with. I have not read that before but since becoming a Messianic I am reading things a little bit differently now. I am not disagreeing with you, I just want to see how that is presented.

[Yitzchak]

messimom said:

Okay. As all should do, I went to my teaching elder with this idea. He read through the comments and said, "well, yeah, this is right." And he went on to "explain" why this made sense. Unfortunately, the explanation didn't make much sense. He said I'm still coming at it with "too Christian" of an understanding. And now I'm trying to wrap my brain around Yeshua not being an all atoning sacrifice(once and for all-no more sacrifices ever needed), but merely the Paschal lamb sacrifice of YHVH and atoning for willful sins and so on. And why sacrifices would still be done if we had a consecrated altar-on which YHVH would choose to put His name-and why there will still be sacrifices in the new Jerusalem with tabernacles and what not. So, my question then is, is there a good paper or work or book on this that clearly explains the ins and outs of all this?

I've been Messianic for 5 years and I know that's still a baby to some of you, but for me, it seems as though almost a lifetime. I have learned so much in such a short amount of time. So when this concept hit and has been initially verified, I almost cried at this revelation. Seriously, sitting there in my fellowship holding back tears as my teaching elder explained. I don't know why. I think I was overwhelmed at such a huge misinterpretation I have continued to make of Yeshua's purpose. After all the teachings, lectures, seminars, books, videos, the list goes on...that I have "experienced" how have I missed this? So, now, I am setting out to fully understand His purpose. And I think others would like an understandable literal (or other) reference to help explain. So if anyone has anything they could point me toward, that would be great. Thank you.

Shalom

Messimom

Messimom,

What a difficult thing this is to understand, and I am not sure that anyone has the simple answer here.

I just wanted to give my opinion on this, based on my studies.

I think it must first be understood that the sacrifices that will be reinstituted in the Millennial Reign will be temporary, as this a 1000 year period. At the end of this period, all those who dwell in the New Jerusalem will be glorified, so there will be no person that contains inpurities which could defile the Temple or G-d's Holiness.

So, if you believe in a true Millennial Reign according to scripture, then we must realize that all who dwell in the earth will not be free of sin. Thus, most of the sacrifices described in Ezekiel are for making atonement for the Temple and the Altar. It is no different then when G-d gave Moshe instructions for the Tabernacle, or when He gave instructions for the Temple. G-d gave us these in order for Him to dwell amongst us, and the sacrifices were required in order for us to be able to approach a Holy G-d. Since Hashem promises to once again have His presence with us in the Millennial Temple, there must be a way made for sacrifices to allow people to stand in His presence.

I do not believe that these interfere with, or depict the sacrifice of Messiah once for all.

Further, when you read the passages in Ezekiel 45 & 46 it speaks of the Prince participating, and one could make the argument that of course the Prince is Yeshua preparing the sacrifices to be offered up.

Eventhough there wil be sacrifices in the Millennial Temple, the focus of our worship will be on the finished work of Messiah. I think this ritual will serve as a daily reminder of man's fallen nature, and how G-d lovingly works to remove the obstacle of sin which separates him.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Of course, when we say "sacrifice", we often raise our cruelty-to-animals banner to half mast and visualize some gothic texas-chainsaw-massacre, blood-thirsty event. But, I challenge you to read through the sacrificial instructions slowly, sitting in your living room with the lights low and a cup of coffee. They were having a bar-be-que.

That is great! And, this sheds a very different and necessary light on the subject.

I would also direct people to a similar thread that has already covered much of what is being discussed here:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=65&page=1

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

calledout05 said:

Netzar Y'hudi:


I was a referring to the sacrifices not being done away with. I have not read that before but since becoming a Messianic I am reading things a little bit differently now. I am not disagreeing with you, I just want to see how that is presented.

I didn't necessarily think you were disagreeing, I just needed to get some direction from you as to where I should be looking.

Let me do some checking and I'll get back to you with some references.

[The 614th Mitzvot]

I feel, and someone correct me because I am not a Rav (an expert concerning jewish law) on this, I feel that the sacrifices are not done away with because their purpose has not changed. If we believe that Yeshua HaMoshiach forgives the sins of those before and after him, did the sacrifices ever forgive sins, no. It can be compared to a parking ticket, he does not take away the fact that he parked in a loading zone off of his record, but he has repented by paying the fee. With Moshiach, all of the facet of the sin is erased by doing true tchuvah (repentance). Therefore, the sacrifice is only an aide in doing tchuvah and makes us more repentant because we are buying something to offer to G-d as a symbol that we are doing tchuvah, but the sacrifice never was nor is the actual tchuvah. All the sacrifice does, yearly, monthly, weakly, twice daily, is remind us to do tchuvah and assist us in doing so. Therefore, would a sacrifice not be appropriate and even beneficial to a believer in Yeshua HaMoshiach?

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shalom CalledOut.

I apologize for taking so long in responding. I did some searching, and here are some references I've found that indicate the talmidim (disciples) continued to go the Temple and offer sacrifices:

Acts 2:45-46
and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the Temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart...

Acts 3:1
Now Kefa and Yochanan were going up to the Temple at the ninth hour, the hour of prayer.

Acts 5:19-20
But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the gates of the prison, and taking them out he said, "Go, stand and speak to the people in the Temple the whole message of this Life."

Acts 21:23-26
"Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the .
"But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the Temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Based on those references alone, I think the case is pretty solid that the Talmidim did not believe that the Temple no longer held any significance and that sacrifices had been done away with. Certainly if Sh'aul thought it was wrong, he definitely would not have done it himself.

[Firestorm]

I said I'd consult with my congregational leader about this and so I have.
He pointed out that Paul's release from the vow had nothing to do with forgiveness from sin; that although sacrifices continued in the temple until AD70 believers didn't take part and that the only sacrifice required of believers in this age was to present ourselves as a living sacrifice as in Romans 12:2.
As president of MJAC, my rabbi has contact with numerous messianic leaders, but he says he's never run across anyone else in the messianic movement who suggests that any further blood sacrifices were needed after Yeshua's death.
Please go to www.ffoz.com, FLAME and the MJAC & MJAA websites, which have question and answer pages or links to sites that do, for further discussion.

[Pioneer]

firestorm said:

I said I'd consult with my congregational leader about this and so I have.
He pointed out that Paul's release from the vow had nothing to do with forgiveness from sin; that although sacrifices continued in the temple until AD70 believers didn't take part and that the only sacrifice required of believers in this age was to present ourselves as a living sacrifice as in Romans 12:2.
As president of MJAC, my rabbi has contact with numerous messianic leaders, but he says he's never run across anyone else in the messianic movement who suggests that any further blood sacrifices were needed after Yeshua's death.
Please go to www.ffoz.com, FLAME and the MJAC & MJAA websites, which have question and answer pages or links to sites that do, for further discussion.

Your learned leader is almost correct!
If he were to br 100% correct, scripture would be incorrect.
Yours and our High Priest will not have to shed blood again. His atonement was once for all time. Aaron needed to sacrifice repeatedlly for he and his sons as priest and High Priest.
Da 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Has this no bearing on the future?

[Mishkan]

firestorm said:

I said I'd consult with my congregational leader about this and so I have.
He pointed out that Paul's release from the vow had nothing to do with forgiveness from sin; that although sacrifices continued in the temple until AD70 believers didn't take part and that the only sacrifice required of believers in this age was to present ourselves as a living sacrifice as in Romans 12:2.

I think I would express this idea a bit differently. I count at least four relevant details that explain the believer's relationship to the Temple sacrifices.

First, there is no longer a Temple standing. Since all the sacrifices were contingent upon the existence of a Temple--"the place where I will put my name"--there can no longer be a sacrifice.

Second, you and I are in diaspora. There are really very few Jews populating Israel right now. There has never been a requirement for diaspora Jews to make aliyah. There was always an assumption that only people living in Israel should make the journey to carry out the festivals in Jerusalem.

Third, not all of the sacrifices delineated in Leviticus were for the purpose of atoning for sin. There were also thanksgiving sacrifices, fellowship offerings, and freewill offerings. None of these atoned for sin, yet they were all part of the daily practice at the Temple.

Finally, I have always been struck by one statement in Revelation 13.8--that Messiah is, "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". That is, in God's eye, the work of atonement has always been a completed action. In that light, the sacrifices can only be viewed as memorials, from the very first day they were implemented. If that is the case, then there is no contradiction in re-instituting the memorials to commemorate the work of Yeshua. Sacrifices prior to the first century looked forward to the Messiah, and sacrifices after he returns will look back to the accomplished work of the Messiah.

This last point also serves as an explanation for Zechariah 14, which describes a time when even the Gentiles in the land surrounding Israel will be required to make aliyah for the pilgrimmage festivals. The passage clearly describes the period of the Messianic reign, and a primary implication of holding the festivals is that there must be a Temple standing, with sacrifices being performed. Not to mention the fact that the punishment for not going up to the festival is very literal--no rain in the land of Egypt.

firestorm said:

As president of MJAC, my rabbi has contact with numerous messianic leaders, but he says he's never run across anyone else in the messianic movement who suggests that any further blood sacrifices were needed after Yeshua's death.

That doesn't sound quite right to me. I've never found anyone who would contradict the implications of the four points I have just described. I believe the case is quite clear that, while salvation is provided by the atoning death of Yeshua, there is still meant to be an active Temple sacrifice in the Messianic era.

Perhaps he hasn't taken part in this sort of discussion? Being president of an organization doesn't make one clairvoyant, after all.

Shalom,

Mishkan David

[Pioneer]

An excerpt from an email from; [e-mail]

Now compare that to the way the verse correctly reads in the RSTNE 3rd Edition soon to be released!

Ivrim 8:13 In that He says, a new priesthood, He has made the first old.

The added word “covenant” in most translations, does not appear in any Greek, or Aramaic texts.

The topic for these chapters is the passing of the prior priesthood, to the new order of Melech-Tzadik, and not of the doing away with the , in favor of a new covenant.

IMO this is the Change of Priesthoods ratified in his blood. Not fact! just opinion.