Where do sacrifices fit into our practice?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

As president of MJAC, my rabbi has contact with numerous messianic leaders, but he says he's never run across anyone else in the messianic movement who suggests that any further blood sacrifices were needed after Yeshua's death.

If you visit the previous link I suggested;

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=65&page=1

..you will quickly see that their argument is with scripture and not us. Furthermore, most of the organizations you referenced (save FFOZ) also teach that is not for Gentiles…and we know that in this case their argument is also with Scripture. So, it is up to the individual to rightly divide the word of truth and not to put all of our eggs in one basket (so to speak) when it comes to human beings.

Da 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Has this no bearing on the future?

Yes, this happens in the future before the 1000 year reign and is a temporary taking away of these offerings. Again, I recommend everyone to revisit the link I provided (even though it is a long read) one will see many scripture references showing that blood sacrifices will again take place….even blood sacrifices for sin. Does scripture lie? The best one can do is spiritualize it away into never-land…but, I believe for such a one it comes down to semantics and wishful thinking.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Blake]

After the Temple fell wouldn't the sacrificial office go to the head of the family like in the times of Noach and Avrahem?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Good question Blake. From my understanding the first born did tend to take on this role and this is how it was before the Levi'im were set apart...But, the Levi'im still have a set apart covenant and will continue have it once the new temple of Adonai is built. Although, some firstborn which have not been redeemed very well may be absorbed into Levitical service.

Shalom chaver,

Reuel

[Blake]

I remember reading in the Hannukkah story that a Roman tried to sacrifice a pig on Yehudah's village's alter... Who would have been in charge of sacrifices on this alter?

[Chizuk Emunah]

blake said:

I remember reading in the Hannukkah story that a Roman tried to sacrifice a pig on Yehudah's village's altar... Who would have been in charge of sacrifices on this altar?

It was actually the Syrians who built the altar, since any sacrifices outside of the Temple are forbidden. And it was Mattityahu, a Cohen, who was ordered to perform the sacrifice. Of course we all know that Mattityahu did not perform the sacrifice, and even killed the man who attempted to do so.

[Firestorm]

"...most of the organisations you referenced (save ffoz) also teach that is not for Gentiles."
I've NEVER heard any such thing from MJAC.
"you will quickly see that their argument is with scripture and not us."
A lot of people have quoted me a lot of scripture to try & convince me to believe things that are off the wall. This stuff is WAY off the wall!
This is also my last post on this topic for as long as I live.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I've NEVER heard any such thing from MJAC.

Whom is claiming we are apart of any of the organizations you have mentioned. We are not the MJAC, nor do they represent Messianic Judaism for everyone....They are but one sect. As for "off the wall"...we have presented the clear scriptures...sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction

Shalom,

Reuel

[CalledOut05]

Dear Reuel,

I read your posts on your other thread that you gave the link for. I believe the dear brother that opposed you still has, even though he would probably never admit it, a replacement theology mindset. One verse that always settled the argument for me as to what Yeshau taught about sacrifices and their place is in Matthew 5: 23-24;
" Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother THEN COME AND OFFER YOUR GIFT."

That really doesn't sound like Yeshua is doing away with the altar service to me. When I read the and the Brit Hashadah, it seems that they say the same thing. The blood of the Passover Lamb is what saves the people of YHVH from judgement. Before Yeshua, the blood saved the nation in Egypt and the blood of Yeshua saves the people of the collective tribes of Israel today from the "global Egypt." Once more, Father Abraham was saved by his faith and not a sacrifice. I have been asked, then why did he offer sacrifices? I believe from what I read in , and the Brit Hahsadah that sacrifice is how we worship YHVH. Most of the sacrifices offered before the Law of Moshe were thanksgiving offerings such as Noach and Abraham after YHVH delivered them from their afflictions (ie, the flood and the sacrifice of the son). One question I always ask my New Covenant brethren is why did Yeshua have to die? Because He was the fulfilment of 's need for sacrifice. In saying that, Yeshua proved that sacrifice was needed to save us. His death supports and fulfills and the Brit Hashada.

In the coming times ahead, the Temple sacrifices, I believe, will symbolize YHVH restoring His house and we, His people, returning our hearts to Him and His laws. I am right there with you, Friend. If I was given the opportunity, I would offer a Fellowship Offering to my Father.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom CalledOut05,

Thank you for sharing....you offered some very good points. Of course none of us is sacrificing animals at the moment as it would be unlawful. But, if people really think about it...when someone kills or has an animal killed and then gives glory to G'd and thanks Him for it...and the animal is eaten...how is this any different than what happend and will happen in The Temple....it is a sanctified and holy barbecue.

It never, nor will it ever take the place of Yeshua The Messiah's sacrifice as the blood of bulls and goats could never permanently take away sin in the first place as attested by the the writings of the Brit Chadashah (New Cov.).

Shalom achi v'chaverim,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Amein!

[Bernie]

Mark,

Sacrifices just prove that nobody is superior to anybody else when it comes to '-keeping'. Obviously nobody in Judaism can claim to be following "all the precepts, commands and ". They can only claim to be following the precepts, commands and that they can follow.

So in that regard one quickly realizes that the only difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism follows a few more points of the Law than Christians.

That's all. It keeps ones head from getting swelled with pride (satan is the king of the children of pride) thinking one is so much better than others for following 2 or 6 more points in the Law than regular Christians who eat unclean foods and do not follow the sabbath.

Years ago, I was having pride about following the Sabbath. I thought this made me better than those "sunday christians". Long story short. God woke me up shortly and told me: Matthew Chapter 12 verse 5:

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

The message to me was crystal clear. If the levites profane the temple of sabbath and are considered blameless. So are the Christians who do not even have 1 percent of the knowledge that the Levites had about following the Sabbath.

All of us must rely solely on the blood sacrifice that the Lord has provided for us, the Lamb of G-d.

I love G-d and make my feeble human effort at following the . I am no better than the Christian who also naturally follows many commands of the (dont sleep with sister, dont sleep with beasts, etc, etc). My few extra points of keeping do not make me any better than them.

[Blake]

bernie said:

Mark,

Sacrifices just prove that nobody is superior to anybody else when it comes to '-keeping'. Obviously nobody in Judaism can claim to be following "all the precepts, commands and ". They can only claim to be following the precepts, commands and that they can follow.

So in that regard one quickly realizes that the only difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism follows a few more points of the Law than Christians.

That's all. It keeps ones head from getting swelled with pride (satan is the king of the children of pride) thinking one is so much better than others for following 2 or 6 more points in the Law than regular Christians who eat unclean foods and do not follow the sabbath.

Years ago, I was having pride about following the Sabbath. I thought this made me better than those "sunday christians". Long story short. God woke me up shortly and told me: Matthew Chapter 12 verse 5:

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

The message to me was crystal clear. If the levites profane the temple of sabbath and are considered blameless. So are the Christians who do not even have 1 percent of the knowledge that the Levites had about following the Sabbath.

All of us must rely solely on the blood sacrifice that the Lord has provided for us, the Lamb of G-d.

I love G-d and make my feeble human effort at following the . I am no better than the Christian who also naturally follows many commands of the (dont sleep with sister, dont sleep with beasts, etc, etc). My few extra points of keeping do not make me any better than them.

I think you bring up some valid points. We should not think ourselves any better for following the , for it beyond the ability of any man to keep it in its entirety. That is why we must trust in the sacrifice of the Moschiach, the only man who ever kept the whole of the without fail.

But I must disagree as well. There are far more differences between Judasim and Christianity.
Most Christians are highly anti-nomian. That is showing contempt for the which is the only guide to what sin is.
The was not given in enslave man, but to free him.
It is a guide for how live one's life, an instruction manual that El-Elyon (God Most High) was gracious enough to afford us.

[Chizuk Emunah]

There are far more differences between Judasim and Christianity.
Most Christians are highly anti-nomian. That is showing contempt for the which is the only guide to what sin is.
The was not given in enslave man, but to free him.
It is a guide for how live one's life, an instruction manual that El-Elyon (God Most High) was gracious enough to afford us.

Right on point!

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

But I must disagree as well. There are far more differences between Judasim and Christianity.
Most Christians are highly anti-nomian. That is showing contempt for the which is the only guide to what sin is.
The was not given in enslave man, but to free him.
It is a guide for how live one's life, an instruction manual that El-Elyon (God Most High) was gracious enough to afford us.

Amein, G'd alone is judge for every human being. It is up to us to follow Adonai with our whole, heart, mind, and soul...and that means keeping to the best of our ability and by the power of Adonai's Spirit.

....If the levites profane the temple of sabbath and are considered blameless. So are the Christians who do not even have 1 percent of the knowledge that the Levites had about following the Sabbath.......

I love G-d and make my feeble human effort at following the . I am no better than the Christian who also naturally follows many commands of the (dont sleep with sister, dont sleep with beasts, etc, etc). My few extra points of keeping do not make me any better than them.

Keeping is possible, it is only our stiff-necked spirit and our own choices that get in the way.

What says the Word of YHVH?...

"if you shall obey the voice of YHVH your elohim, to keep his mitzvot and his statutes which are written in this scroll of the ; if you turn to YHVH your elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul.
For this mitzvah which I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.
Behold, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command you this day to love YHVH your elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his mitzvot and his statutes and his ordinances, that you may live and multiply, and that YHVH your elohim may bless you in the land where you go in to possess it. But if your heart turn away, and you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce to you this day, that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land, where you pass over the Yarden to go in to possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed; to love YHVH your elohim, to obey his voice, and to cleave to him; for he is your life, and the length of your days; that you may dwell in the land which YHVH swore to your fathers, to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Ya`akov, to give them."
- Devarim/Deut. 30:10-20

Truly it is Adonai whom separates the sheep from the goats and we are to be His witnesses, boasting in Him and His Word....

"But "he who boasts, let him boast in the Lord."" - 2Co 10:17

"Thus says YHVH, Don't let the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, don't let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, that he has understanding, and knows me, that I am YHVH who exercises loving kindness, justice, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says YHVH.
Behold, the days come, says YHVH, that I will punish all those who are circumcised in their uncircumcision:
Egypt, and Yehudah, and Edom, and the children of `Ammon, and Mo'av, and all that have the corners of their hair cut off, who dwell in the wilderness; for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Yisra'el are uncircumcised in heart."
- Yermiyahu/Jeremiah 9:23-26

Continue to read...

"My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Yeshua the Messiah, the righteous.
And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his mitzvot (commandments).
One who says, "I know him," and doesn't keep his mitzvot, is a liar, and the truth isn't in him.
But whoever keeps his word, G-d's love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.
Brothers, I write no new mitzvah to you, but an old mitzvah which you had from the beginning. The old mitzvah is the word which you heard from the beginning." - 1Yochanan/John 2:1-7

Adonai's word speaks for itself.

Truly the difference is between those whom embrace and do their best to keep it and those whom outright reject it and oppress those whom do not do the same.

What does our Master say?...

"Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least mitzvot (commandments), and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven." - Mattityahu/Matthew 5:19

I think our Master's words are worthy to repeat and teach to others...for they are true.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Blake]

Another problem with sacrifices is that almost everyone has at some point become unclean from contact with a dead body or other means and without the ashes of the red heifer you remain perpetually unclean. To bring a sacrifice while unclean is a very great sin, so even sacrifices that are still possible to perform cannot continue.