Will Christians Be Saved?

[NaildWithHim]

pioneer said:

naildwithhim said:

Greetings Pioneer my friend,

I see no conflict of theology here. I'm prone to view the Covenants from the onset. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission.

Once, for all.

To be a Jew!
Give up Idol worship(accept the Creator God),
Be circumcised (circumcised heart not made by hands), Do a mikvah(babtism),
Bring a sacrifice(lamb of God).
Behold a Jew!
Smell like an Olive!
Nefesh Y'hudi, (Fully fledged Messianic)(Of the Way)
Now, on to election. Do the will of the Father.

And to you friend!

Once for all, I do not NEED to Be a Yehudim to be saved or elected. Nor 'to smell like an olive'.

Oh, and you left out Yeshua HaMoshiach. Your in grave error, but that's okay you have to live with it friend.


What say you?


Shalom
Naild

[Pioneer]

I am afraid you allowed your teeth to be set on edge without seeing!

Just who do you think I meant by the Lamb of God?
Is this not a title in the B'rt HaDashah?

Certainly! You don't NEED to have a Jewish Spirit to be saved.

But, you do in order to provoke your Jewish Brother to jealousy! Isn't that part of what we are called to do?

Please accept my appoligy for the offense.
I did not intend to be offensive.
Shalom

[Yitzchak]

Once for all, I do not NEED to Be a Yehudim to be saved or elected. Nor 'to smell like an olive'.

You do not need to be anything, but you are grafted into the tree whose foundation are the Patriarchs Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaacov according to Romans 11.

If grafted into a Jewish tree, then when you come to Messiah you become part of the commonwealth of Israel, and thus you are spiritually Yehudim.

When you throw off the Helenistic mindset in this area, and operate from the Hebraic perspective, you will understand what Pioneer is saying, as well as being effective in provoking the unsaved Jewish people to jealousy.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Chizuk Emunah]

Take it easy guys. I know things may get heated sometimes, but let's try to keep things to a dull roar okay.


Now, on to the heart of the issue:
We all agree that one does not have to be Jewish in order to be saved from eternal separation.
On the flipside of that, it is essential to have a Hebraic mindset with which to examine the Scriptures. Many people, scholars, theolgians, and Pastors, have made grave errors in interpreting Scripture, and all this because they chucked Judaism out the door. Surely one can see the benefit of looking through the Hebrew Scriptures with a Hebraic mindset. Especially since we now know the importance and historical authenticity of the Aramiac texts which have been passed down to us.

[NaildWithHim]

yitzchak said:

When you throw off the Helenistic mindset in this area, and operate from the Hebraic perspective, you will understand what Pioneer is saying, as well as being effective in provoking the unsaved Jewish people to jealousy.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

Yitzchak,

I understand full well what Pioneer was saying. I've known him for over a year now so there's no big surprise in his response to me. And as for the ever repeated plea's to study Scripture from a "Hebraic mindset" (I get so sick of that phrase) which mindset would that be? Like the school of Hillel where Shaul the "Hebrew of Hebrews" attended? You know the Shaul who consented unto Stephens righteous blood, imprisoned and killed Messanics. The same "Hebraic mindset" the Pharisee's had/have (Oh yes, they are amongst us today) who constantly went about seeking to destroy the Lord of Glory?

Yes, I study Scripture from the perspective it was intended to be studied and lived out from, but not the Messiah denying "mindset" of Judaism mascaraded as Messianism. To say that interpreting the Scriptures as a Hebrew would is the correct way.............is error. There is a difference between a faithful Hebrew and an unfaithful Hebrew. It saddens me that the Messiah was crucified for the Covenant that would bring the promise of the Father, only to watch His children focus on the flesh all over again. Those who were duped by Christianity now take an extremist hard right toward pure Judaism and call it Messianism.


Please don't take this personal because the bulk of comments are not addressed to any one person in particular. Just the sect of Messianism that is caught up in the whole flesh thing.



Shalom
Naild

[Yitzchak]

Yitzchak,

I understand full well what Pioneer was saying. I've known him for over a year now so there's no big surprise in his response to me. And as for the ever repeated plea's to study Scripture from a "Hebraic mindset" (I get so sick of that phrase) which mindset would that be? Like the school of Hillel where Shaul the "Hebrew of Hebrews" attended? You know the Shaul who consented unto Stephens righteous blood, imprisoned and killed Messanics. The same "Hebraic mindset" the Pharisee's had/have (Oh yes, they are amongst us today) who constantly went about seeking to destroy the Lord of Glory?

Perhaps for you this is not the right phrase, and I am sorry that you are sick of hearing it. I usually use this as I deal on a daily basis with those who teach against the .

I happen to believe that many believers, and specifically those who teach against the , discount things like culture, geography, idioms, and perspective, which must be looked at to properly interpret the scriptures.

Not to mention the faulty translations that are used to prove their point.

I am not accusing you of anything, but the truth is as I said before, to be grafted in makes you spiritually Yehudim.

Yes, I study Scripture from the perspective it was intended to be studied and lived out from, but not the Messiah denying "mindset" of Judaism mascaraded as Messianism. To say that interpreting the Scriptures as a Hebrew would is the correct way.............is error. There is a difference between a faithful Hebrew and an unfaithful Hebrew. It saddens me that the Messiah was crucified for the Covenant that would bring the promise of the Father, only to watch His children focus on the flesh all over again. Those who were duped by Christianity now take an extremist hard right toward pure Judaism and call it Messianism.

It is in fact that there are less than perfect people in every sect of the believing community. Messianic Judaism is not perfect, and does not contain all perfect people.

It also does not teach that one can be justified by the law, and this is where I see most of the problem.

True Messianic Judaism teaches that salvation comes throught Yeshua, and Yeshua alone. The idea of observing is not for the idea of justification, but of sanctification.

I for one do not expect that all who believe are called to follow , as was taught in Acts 15, but G-d did make a way for all those who chose to sojourn with the nation of Israel in their practice.

was never meant to be a means of salvation. Why would G-d count to Abraham as righteousness his faith, if could save. On the contrary, was meant to teach us about the nature of G-d, and through our observance we attempt to reflect that nature.

We are told by Yeshua, "be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

don't take this personal because the bulk of comments are not addressed to any one person in particular. Just the sect of Messianism that is caught up in the whole flesh thing.

I do not take it personally, and would ask that you do not judge all that call themselves Messianic in same light. We are all different, we are all in process, and we are all trying the best we can to reflect the nature of G-d in our lives.

Also, please forgive me if I was presumptuos in my earlier response. I am zealous in my beliefs, and often tire as you do of those who challenge my faith.

Shalom,

Yitzchak



Shalom Yitzchak

[NaildWithHim]

I understand what your saying about people challenging your faith. Happens to me all the time. I too am zealous for the Law. It is YHVH's loving grace to us all, as is His son Messiah Yeshua.

I wasn't labeling anyone in particular, just making some generalized comments on different sects of Messianism. You see, I grow weary of all the focusing on Jews(Descendants of Abraham according to the flesh) as if that is somehow going to score someone points with the Almighty. It won't. In fact, He abhores idols. Wether they be stone, gold, or flesh. I'm hoping your following me here. We are probably on the same page more than you think.



Shalom
Naild

[Pioneer]

My friend Naild, would you tell me the meaning of the parables of Yeshua, Matt. 13:44-52, are they just generalities or are they something specific?

With an understanding of the Hebrew of the day(when spoken)there are some very important pictures being painted. Just for starters "Treasure" is Israel.

Dave, show these folks the wisdom of the Greeco-Roman translators. Will that picture resemble the one from Hebrew? I wonder! I was never a Church goer so I am unaware of what the ministers preached on the subject, but being wise in my own eyes I had my idea of what it means. Quite frankly it was pretty good, but it only had to do with me as the finder.
One can see how folks can come up with the ideas that surface in 2500 denominations.

Just what is your view of "The Kingdom of Heaven?"

Shalom

[NaildWithHim]

pioneer said:

My friend Naild, would you tell me the meaning of the parables of Yeshua, Matt. 13:44-52, are they just generalities or are they something specific?

With an understanding of the Hebrew of the day(when spoken)there are some very important pictures being painted. Just for starters "Treasure" is Israel.

Dave, show these folks the wisdom of the Greeco-Roman translators. Will that picture resemble the one from Hebrew? I wonder! I was never a Church goer so I am unaware of what the ministers preached on the subject, but being wise in my own eyes I had my idea of what it means. Quite frankly it was pretty good, but it only had to do with me as the finder.
One can see how folks can come up with the ideas that surface in 2500 denominations.

Just what is your view of "The Kingdom of Heaven?"

Shalom

Hello Pioneer,

Unfortunately I had prepared a very long post with my explaination of Mattiyahu 13, but alas, I lost it all when trying to post. So, I'll remain brief because I'm more than a little disheartened over the whole thing.

Anyway, my interpretation of those verses that have to do with the treasure in Heaven would come from a Hebraism of a wedding ceremony. The pearl of great price is in fact Israel, but not the Nation according to the flesh (Although many are included). Yeshua gave up all that He had to buy Israel, He gave up His very life. This was the sum for betrothment. So the parables are specific, and they are also general as are all parables. There is more than just one meaning in a parable. Many lessons can be gleaned from them. However, the deeper meaning(s) are shrouded from the masses. Is that the answer you were looking for? What is your interpretation of those parables?


Now, let me ask you something about parables. What is the two central theme's in all of Yeshua's parables combined?


As far as translators go, we have been around that mountain before Bob. I said it before and I'll say it again. There's nothing wrong with the Greek manuscripts. In fact, it's the language G-d chose to have the majority of the New Covenant penned in, not Hebrew. The problem lies with the theology of the English translators themselves, not the language. If you would take the time to learn some basic Greek grammar and it's rules you would understand what I'm saying, but apparently you are uninterested in that.


You want to know my view on the Kingdom of G-d? I thought you already knew it? Well, that's probably the broadest question I think you have ever asked me. LOL
It's without a doubt the main focus throughout the entire Bible. Could you be more specific please?


I can tell you this about it though, most are still blind to the fact that it has been postponed. They have transformed the David Kingdom into something it's not, like some kind of 'spiritual realm' hocus-pocus.




Shalom
Naild

[NaildWithHim]

Here's some more on the whole idea of 'Treasure in Heaven'. Notice how the Greek tongue agrees with the Hebrew? The root word is KORBAN in Greek. In both Greek and Hebrew the prime meaning (Scripturaly) is "sacrifice". This was taken from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. You can download the program in dictionary downloads at www.e-sword.net/ .





Treasure; Treasurer; Treasury
trezh´ū́r, trezh´ū́r-ẽr, trezh´ū́r-i (אוצר, 'ōcār, גּנז, genaz, גּנז, genez, גּנזך, ganzakh, חסן, ḥōṣen מטמון, maṭmōn, מסכּנה, miṣkenāh, מכמן, mikhman, עתוּד, ‛āthūdh, שׂפן, sāphan; γάζα, gáza, θησαυρός, thēsaurós):

I. In the Old Testament.
1. Treasure
The English word “treasure” has in the Old Testament at least five somewhat distinct meanings as expressed in the words: “treasure,” genaz (Aramaic) or genez (Hebrew), usually meaning “the thing stored”; translated “treasures” in Ezr_6:1, but in Ezr_5:17 and Ezr_7:20 translated “treasure-house”: “search made in the king's treasure-house.” In Est_3:9; Est_4:7 the Hebrew form is translated “treasury,” as is ganzakh in 1Ch_28:11.

2. Storehouse:
“Storehouse,” not the thing stored but the place of storage; 'ōcār means depository, cellar, garner, armory, store or treasure-house. In several places it ought to be translated by some of these words. It is the most frequent word for treasure. the English Revised Version and the American Standard Revised Version both translate in some instances by other words, e.g. 1Ki_7:51, “treasuries of the house of YHWH,” so also 2Ch_5:1; “treasury” in Neh_7:70, Neh_7:71, “gave to the treasury a thousand darics of gold”; in Job_38:22, “treasuries of the snow” (compare Pro_8:21; Jer_10:13; Jer_51:16; Ezr_2:69).

3. Hidden Riches:
“Treasure” or something concealed. There are 3 Hebrew words with this meaning and all in the King James Version translated “treasure.” (1) Maṭmōn, which literally means “a secret storehouse” and so a secreted valuable, usually money buried, and so hidden riches of any kind, hid treasures: “treasure in your sacks” (Gen_43:23); “dig for it more than for hid treasures” (Job_3:21); “search for her as for hid treasures” (Pro_2:4); “We have stores hidden in the field, of wheat,” etc. (Jer_41:8). (2) Mikhman, treasure as hidden, used only in Dan_11:43 : “have power over the treasures of gold and silver.” (3) Sāphan, meaning hidden treasure or valuables concealed: “hidden treasures of the sand” (Deu_33:19).

4. Strength:
Perhaps the strength of riches and so treasure, the Hebrew word being ḥōṣen, from a root meaning to hoard or lay up: “In the house of the righteous is much treasure” (Pro_15:6); “They take treasure and precious things” (Eze_22:25).

5. Something Prepared:
“Something prepared,” made ready, the Hebrew word being ‛āthūdh, meaning “prepared,” “ready,” therefore something of value and so treasure: “have robbed their treasures,” fortifications or other things “made ready” (Isa_10:13).
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word most often translated “treasure” is 'ōcār. It occurs in the sing. as follows: Deu_28:12; 1Ch_29:8; Neh_10:38; Psa_17:14; Psa_135:4; Pro_15:16; Pro_21:20; Ecc_2:8; Isa_33:6; Dan_1:2; Hos_13:15; in the pl.: Deu_32:34; 1Ki_14:26; 1Ki_15:18; 2Ki_12:18; 2Ki_14:14; 2Ki_16:8; 2Ki_18:15; 2Ki_20:13, 2Ki_20:15; 2Ki_24:13, etc.
The same word is in the King James Version translated “treasuries” in 1Ch_9:26; 1Ch_28:12; 2Ch_32:27; Neh_13:12, Neh_13:13; Psa_135:7; and “treasury” in Jos_6:19, Jos_6:24; Jer_38:11.

II. In the New Testament.
1. Gaza:
There are two words translated “treasure”: Gáza is of Persian origin, meaning “treasure.” Found only once in Act_8:27 concerning the Ethiopian “who was over all her (Queen Candace's) treasure.” In the compound γαζοφυλάκιον, gazophulákion, “guarding of gaza,” the same word appears and the compound is translated “treasury” in Mar_12:41, Mar_12:43 parallel Luk_21:1; Joh_8:20. See TEMPLE; TREASURY (OF TEMPLE).

2. Thesauros:
The word thēsauros means literally, a “deposit,” so wealth and treasure. Evidently throughout the New Testament it has a twofold usage as describing (1) material treasure, either money or other valuable material possession, and (2) spiritual treasure, e.g. “like unto treasure hid in a field” (Mat_13:44); “good treasure of the heart” (Mat_12:35). Other references to material treasure are Mat_6:21; Mat_13:52; Luk_12:21, Luk_12:34, etc. References to spiritual treasure are Mat_19:21; Mar_10:21; Luk_6:45; Luk_12:33; Luk_18:22; plural Mat_6:20; Col_2:3.
In Mat_27:6 the word for “treasury” is κορβανᾶς, korbanás; compare the Revised Version margin. See CORBAN.

Treasurer
(אצר, 'ācar, גּדבר, gedhābhār, גּזבּר, gizbār, סכן, ṣākhan; οἰκονόμος, oikonómos): (1) 'Acar, meaning primarily “to store up,” and hence, one who lays up in store, i.e. a “treasurer”: “I made treasurers over the treasuries” (Neh_13:13). (2) Gedhābhār (Aramaic), used only in Dan_3:2, Dan_3:3 : “treasurers,” named with judges and counselors as recognized officials. (3) Gizbār, used in Ezr_7:21 (Aramaic) and equivalent in Ezr_1:8 (Hebrew): “treasurers beyond the river” and “Mithredath the treasurer.” (4) Ṣākhan, primarily meaning “one who ministers to,” and hence, a keeper of treasure, treasurer: “Get thee unto this treasurer” (Isa_22:15). Perhaps the idea of steward is here intended. (5) Oikonomos, by the King James Version translated “chamberlain,” more properly in the American Standard Revised Version translated “treasurer”: “Erastus the treasurer of the city saluteth you” (Rom_16:23).




Shalom
Naild

[Pioneer]

Naild, you are in left field here, treasure in heaven is a different subject.
This is about Mt.13:44-52 You are right when you refer this as the Mashiach giving up all he owned for those who would be in the kingdom

In Hebrew, Israel is Am Segulah Refer to Ex.19:5 The kingdom of heaven - treasure in a field.

The pearls are the people of the Nations, Pearls come from the Sea, from a non-kosher animal, the Sea always in Hebrew symbolism is a reference to the nations. Pearls after they are harvested are okay for a Hebrew to possess , the Pearl of great value is a reference to the Church. The kingdom is like a Pearl of great value.

Again the kingdom is like a net, gathers fish , separate the good from the bad.

"Have you understood all this?" They said to him, "Yes."

"Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old."

(Remember I am not a typist, all is condensed, would be fuller done by a story teller and typist.)

I too hope you have understood all this. For me to actually know what he was saying and who he is talking about, makes the reading of his words so much richer, a little easier to comprehend.

I also hope you can now understand what I have tried to say to you in the past where-in you think I am saying Hebrew is better, no Hebrew is symbolic, a picture language, not just a bunch of words ran together.

People think they know the story of the Gaderene Demoniac, they do! But in symbolic Hebrew, a panorama unfolds, one picture is worth 1000 words. You need to hear my teacher do this scripture, takes 30 min. to do it justice, but when it is played out for your minds eye. Before a cold sandwich, after a kings table banquet.

[NaildWithHim]

Hello Pioneer,

Out in left field? Maybe you are not following on me on this. The idea of "selling all you have" has to do with sacrifice. As the Scripture says:

(Rom 12:1)
I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice--living, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.

The idea of sacrifice, as well as suffering for Messiah's sake is all over the New Covenant writings. As Shaul points out in Acts:

(Act 14:22)
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter into the Kingdom of God."


You said you agreed with my assesment of the parables concerning the Kingdom in verses 44-46. I went on to add some things (The post I lost was better written) concerning treasures, and the proper Biblical interpretation of such. If I lost you there please forgive me I got kind of inpatient.


If you wanted my opinion on Matt 13:52 alone I wish you would have just come right out and asked me about that verse. The "new" and "old" is refering to the Covenants in my estimation. If you were looking for something more than what I offered then I'm at a loss for words.



Shalom
Naild

[Pioneer]

Yeah! His giving all for both the Am Segulah/Treasure/Isreal and the Pearl/Nations/Church, the righteous of all nations, the bad thrown away and the old and new brought into the kingdom of God.

Now who is confusing who? My bible says his sacrifice was "once for all".
Mt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
God is not hungry! He wants us to clean up our act and be obedient. Believe and obey!
Ro 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
Jas 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Dennis Waitly's Grand Mother said "When you are green you are growing, when you rippen you begin to rot!" Anyone who knows it all, is convinced. This is where everyone else needs some fresh air. I do hope I am still growing, still open to the truth.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom chaverim,

I think both of you have good points
Although, there are a few statements I would like to address...

Yes, I study Scripture from the perspective it was intended to be studied and lived out from, but not the Messiah denying "mindset" of Judaism mascaraded as Messianism.

What about the mindset of the Jewish men that actually wrote the scriptures? Is not this mindset at the very least helpful when studying and understanding the scriptures?

You see, I grow weary of all the focusing on Jews(Descendants of Abraham according to the flesh) as if that is somehow going to score someone points with the Almighty.

I agree with you. We all have special roles in the Kingdom of Heaven. We are all just as valuable in the Kingdom Of Heaven. Jew and Gentile, one in messiah.

In fact, it's the language G-d chose to have the majority of the New Covenant penned in, not Hebrew.

Of course this is highly debatable. It is quite possible because of anti-semitism the Greek copies survived and the Hebrew supressed. It seems doubtful that one would not first write much of these autographs in their native language. But, that is a different discussion for a different thread.

Berachot b'Yeshua,

Reuel

[NaildWithHim]

admin said:

Of course this is highly debatable. It is quite possible because of anti-semitism the Greek copies survived and the Hebrew supressed. It seems doubtful that one would not first write much of these autographs in their native language.

Hello Reuel,

Let's try using a bit of logic here shall we? First, I would like to note that I said the "majority of the New Covenant was penned in Greek, not Hebrew".

Do you not agree that the majority of the New Covenant writings were penned by Shaul, and mostly addressed to Gentile Congregations? Would he not write these letters in the language they could fluently read, since he was learned in this language?


Also, why is it that the Tanakh had survived written in Hebrew (even after the captivity and diaspora) and not the New Covenant manuscripts? That seems very odd to say the least. Were not the oracles of YHVH commited unto the Jew? If so, then they miserably failed to guard the Hebrew New Covenant manuscripts. I don't believe that for a single second. Surely if there had been Hewbrew New Covenant manuscripts they would have not only survived until this day, but would have been circulating. Besides all that, Hebrew was not the primary language of the Jews at the time of Yeshua's ministry. So no, this is really not debateable taking all the facts into account.




Shalom
Naild