Will Christians Be Saved?

[Blake]

I agree. God would not condemn those who walk in the light that has been shown to them.
It would be staunchly legalistic to condemn all faithful Christians because they don't understand all the laws.

I believe that all men will be ressurected and given a full opprotunity to except the whole light of the and Gospel when Israel reigns over earth for 1000 years.

[Shiloah]

I guess I have a few more thoughts on this topic.

One is that, can anyone show me how divergent are the teachings of the Newer Testament to the Older Testament? I mean, if it is all the teaching and instruction of G-d, which it is, then if a person was concentrating on obeying the commands of the Newer Testament (ie, love in sincerity and truth, practice good works, respect our husbands, love our wives, honour our parents, look after widows and orphans, respect authority as being something G-d has instituted, not place stumbling blocks before weaker brethren, etc etc) surely that person would be pretty much in line with much of the , commands, instructions from the Older Testament.

And the other thing I have thought of is that, if an individual is taught something like, "all days belong to G-d, it doesn't matter about whether it is Sunday or Saturday or any day, all our time belongs to G-d" and if that is a false and misleading doctrine, then does the responsibility for following that rest on the individual, or on the teacher? I am sure there are verses in the Brit Chadasha that say that a teacher will be judged more strictly, and that is why not many of us should yearn to be teachers. G-d knows how easily we can get it wrong, or put the emphasis in an off-balance way.

One last idea is the old story of the four blind men that "see" an elephant for the first time. Each man makes a decision about what sort of creature he has encountered by the information before him. To one there is the trunk, to another, a large flappy ear, to another, a small, stringy tail, to another the flat, rough side of the elephant. The elephant is truly an elephant, but each person is making an understanding out of the truth presented before him.

I guess what I feel is that we DO have a responsibility to keep moving "around the elephant" before we decide we have all the truth. And I believe that if one's heart is hungry after G-d's ways, he/she won't be satisfied with just partial truth. But I do believe there are a lot of folk sitting in Sunday churches out there who feel very discontent, but don't understand exactly what it is that is missing. It is sort of like "nagging thought, nagging thought...." but being unsure of why they have these thoughts, as well as what to do about it, they stay in the same place. I believe that G-d will be more severe in judgement about those who have suppressed the truth, than those who were led like unknowing sheep, into a dark valley where they can't see the figure of the wolf until it closes in over them.

Partly I think too, our western mindset is such that we like to have water-tight doctrines, all in their little place, neatly sewn up. Some pastors can get almost panic-stricken if you suggest to them that what they have been fed from their teachers at seminary/college might not be all there is. (Let alone out right false teaching). So I think it is fear, that they may be wrong that keeps them in that place. Like a pack of cards, if you take one out, the whole lot may come crashing down around their ears. They just can't deal with it.

Some of what has happened is historic in my opinion too. Dates right back to medieval times when the majority of folk couldn't read, couldn't check out the truth for themselves. They were told the scripture on Sundays (usually in Latin!) and had to be content that their leaders were bringing them closer to G-d. I think sometimes these patterns are hard to break because there is a spiritual stupor that can be released over people which does not lift unless challenged. I guess the Reformation was meant to do that, but fell so far short again because the Reformers were unwilling to re-institute the Shabbat and other commands. whilst claiming to be relying on scripture alone.

These are just some musings - bit rambly sorry guys.

Shalom,

Shiloah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

It would be staunchly legalistic to condemn all faithful Christians because they don't understand all the laws.

I don't condemn them, but The Father's law does. Sin is sin regardless if you understand it, or not. If we have been saved, and the Spirit of G'd truly lives in us, and we are truly guided by it...we will not reject The Father's (His instruction in our lives) continually. Of course it is a process of sanctification and we are not totally obedient all at once. Even Israel did not receive all at once. We are condemned because of our sin before we come to Messiah. Therefore, sin condemns regardless of the knowledge of it.

We are responsible along the way for what G'd reveals to us, as where the children of Israel. It was stated that G'd will hold people to the light given to them. But, the has been presented to many and they have outright rejected it. If ignorance was the key to salvation, than the Good News (Gospel) would be the most cruel message you could ever deliver to someone...but, of course we know this is not true. If we come to a certain point in our relationship with Him in which He reveals His will for us and we reject it, than He is no longer our lord if we continue to reject His instruction in our life. There are many whom did this in the wilderness as YHVH led the children of Israel to the Promised Land. But, many of them did not enter in because of disbelief, which was manifested by their works. These things were for our example (1Cr.10:6). Will not Messiah Himself reject those whom call him lord, but live lawless lives (Mat.7:23)?

As attested by the prophet Yechezkel (Ezekiel), if one has the Spirit of G'd, His Spirit will cause such a one to keep His commandments....

"And I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them."
- Yechezkel (Ezek.) 36:26-27

The above is either true, or not. The above does not say that once someone is indwelled by the Spirit that they will reject His . It rejects that idea totally. For the carnal person does not keep , indeed it is impossible for them to even begin to do so (Rom.8:7). Truly...we shall know them by their fruits...not by how sincere they are in believing the lie. If fact, many are given over to the lie if they reject the truth for too long (2Th.2:11). YHVH is a just judge. Many will live long enough to finally repent and serve Adonai. Sadly for most...this will not be the case.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[LovingNeighbor]

SHalom all,

Shiloah, I was just starting to read this thread and wanted to reply to some things you said.

In my humble and inperfect opinion too many people think they have the concept of salvation figured out. Then when they do start to study the confusion comes from them seeing but not wanting to believe what some scriptures say. if works and commandment keeping is what we are being judged by as revelations says. Then we have to throw in grace and somehow we get a message that we must keep the commandments, mixed with we want to feel we can say we are saved, mixed with we can't do anything to earn salvation ( a horrible teaching), but correct in a specific understanding. but when you assume all these things are true then you try and force them into our understanding of salvation and you get alot of lukewarm teachings that contradict themselves.

I see Commandment keeping as a requirement for salvation. (oh yes, it goes right against the teaching non obsevent christians have been teaching for hundreds of years) but since we have done such a poor job of keeping his commandments he allows mercy and doesn't automatically destroy us all.

At this point we need to keep the commandments more because we have done evil in his sight and the grace and mercy comes from what we do now. If we have sinned in many ways but now work on studying to keep his commandments then we may find favor(not as a righteous but as a son who returned from evil) and then be shown mercy for our past. in this sense we must qualify for Grace, we cannot earn it because it is subjective to what we have done, as in the widows might, and the parable of the talents. but then Yahshuah will decide as judge if he will show favor to us and then give us mercy.

Keeping the commandments is one of the fundemental and most valuable assets we have to qualify for grace and even if we do it isn't a gaurantee we will be shown mercy.

Of course that goes the next main issue is how can you be saved if you have not been judged. and next is are you looking for salvation or mercy for your evil deeds. In that sense your salvation from the complete penalty of sin is the keeping of the commandments which can qualify you for mercy.

People don't want to believe we will be punished for our sins, and that is why they keep trying to push bad theologies on salvation, both unearned and eternal.

Shalom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I believe that it is a required factor in a saved individual's character only because it is a natural bi-product of the true faith that saves. But, I would still contend that salvation is by the grace of Adonai through faith in Him and His word. But again, as we all know from the book of Yaakov (James), our works prove that we have true faith. To put it simply, we keep the commandments of G'd not to be saved, but because we already are.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Mark]

In answer to Shiloah's first statement, we have to understand that the New Testament refers to sinful conditions using generalized terms: fornication means a variety of different things to a variety of different cultures. Uncleanness is certainly an broadly defined concept; but Paul told us to avoid uncleanness in Galatians 5:19. The New Testament is wholly consistent with the Old. The New Testament writings have been taught in such a way ( and in many cases translated in such a way ) as to allow lawlessness in faith.

Shiloah's second point is taken up by Messiah in Matthew 5:19. “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens." Hebrews 13:17 also places the burden upon the teachers for what is taught to others. However, every person will also give an account for themseves according to how they walked according to Messiah (Matthew 12:36, Romans 14:12)- and I don't believe that Adonai grades on a curve. We are responsible to walk in obedience to Him.

We have to understand what "salvation" is when we talk about whether a person becomes submissive when they believe. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says that if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creature, old things are passed away and all things have become new. In 2nd Corinthians 6:14, Paul asks, "For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? And what fellowship has light with darkness?" In Romans 6, we are clearly admomished to throw away the old things of this world and begin to walk as citizens of the heavenly kingdom.

We don't cease to sin the moment we believe. Yet, we enter into a relationship with Adonai through Messiah, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We have to understand that it is not our "obedience" that is the end goal of Adonai concerning us: it is relationship. Obedience is the path that draws us into relationship. Eact time we say to Adonai, "This is mine, I will define my own righteousness and, God, You're just going to have to accept me as I am" we are pushing Adonai away. We are choosing death over life, darkness over light. But when we say to Adonai, "Whatever you say, Lord, that will I do," we are choosing to grow in our relationship with Him.

Yeshua said, "not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom." Those who choose self-will over obedience are not followers of Messiah- they may call on His name; but they are following a name that could be attached to any inanimate object or ideal while never pledging any alleigance to the One who is worthy of all praise. Obedience is the product of a supernatural transformation. "I believe in Jesus" is not a password that gets you into heaven,

We obey because we have become His and are somehow made in fellowship with Him. We sin, we mess up; but we walk in obedience- growing in our relationship with Adonai, receiving forgiveness and returning toward Him.

When we, as Messianic believers in Yeshua, stand up and say, "We are Observant, we have the answers of life in righteousness, everyone else is damned to hell," we have stepped onto a road of arrogance. We are sinners, saved by grace alone, just like anyone who truly gives their life over to Messiah, regardless where they are in their understanding of obedience. No one is "all right". No one has it all together. We are together become unprofitable.

Yet, we understand that the Christian church is teaching and following the traditions of men and not the Word of God. There are people who have come into a relationship with Him but are taught error; but they are not satisfied with what they find in the church- they are seeking truth, sometimes confused, on some doctrines, deceived; but searching- being wooed to the truth by the Spirit within.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Again here I agree with Mark & Reuel.
Obedience to comes as a by-product of being indwelt by the Ruach HaKodesh. And consistently throught the "New Testament" we are told our faith is made manifest by what we do. Even the shadim believe in HaShem in tremble, so belief alone means nothing. It is only when you live out your faith according to that you can be a light to those around you.

[NaildWithHim]

Shalom All,

Wow! This thread has really grown!

I have to appologize for my absence. I have been experiencing difficulty connecting to the internet the last few weeks.

It seems that many Scriptures have been misapplied, and I will address them shortly.

For now I have but a simple question to all........


Where the Children of Israel redeemed from Egypt by the Law? Take your time.


Naild

[Elishava]

Very interesting thread indeed... seems to me that we are to judge fruit and not salvation. How can we as mere mortals truly tell what is in man's heart. One can proclaim Yeshua seem to be keeping the commandments and be going straight to hell. How are we to know..we can't. Hence, G-d looks on the inside and not the outward apparence.
As to Naild's question, my answer is they were redeemed by the blood first "saved" walked through the waters of "baptism" mikveh, and then given the instructions on how to walk out this redeemed life style. An example for the future generations.....i think so.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

As to Naild's question, my answer is they were redeemed by the blood first "saved" walked through the waters of "baptism" mikveh, and then given the instructions on how to walk out this redeemed life style. An example for the future generations.....i think so.

Amein sister!

[NaildWithHim]

elishava said:

As to Naild's question, my answer is they were redeemed by the blood first "saved" walked through the waters of "baptism" mikveh, and then given the instructions on how to walk out this redeemed life style. An example for the future generations.....i think so.

Absolutley perfect answer! Yep, that's Scriptural alright. The Law was never given as a means of Salvation. Period.

However, election is a whole different ballgame isn't it? Those who will share in the firstborn sonship of Meshiach will be keeping the Commandments. The Israelites were to be shining examples of YHVH's love for Jew and Gentile alike. Big difference between the letter that kills, and the Spirit that gives life. If there had been a Law that could grant one eternal life, surely righteousness would have come by the Law. The just shall live by faith. This establishes the Law.


Just my two cents. Hope it spends.



Naild

[Rick]

I think this explains alot in relation to the statement by pblondeau46 in the initial post;

My friends tell me Christians are following a false Jesus. I do understand what they are saying. But they also say they are probably not saved.

There's a new poll out which points to a growing rejection among Evangelicals that Jesus is the only way of salvation.
For years, most evangelical Christians have been taught and accepted the words of Jesus in John 14:6, where He states, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man cometh unto the Father but my Me." But now a new Newsweek/Beliefnet poll is showing a shocking number of people who call themselves evangelical and born-again have come to reject those words.

The question in the poll read: "Can a good person who isn't of your religious faith go to heaven or attain salvation, or not?"

According to the poll results of more than 1,000 adults 18 years of age and older, 68 percent of evangelical Christians believe "good" people of other faiths can also go to heaven. Nationally, 79 percent of those surveyed said the same thing, with an "astounding" 91 percent agreement among Catholics, notes Beliefnet. Beliefnet spokesman Steven Waldman calls the results "pretty amazing."
"Evangelicals are among the most churchgoing and religiously attentive people in the United States," Waldman writes, "and one of the ideas they're most likely to hear from the minister at church on a given Sunday is that the path to salvation is through Jesus."
In light of that, how -- he asks -- could so many Americans toss aside such a central element of theology?
Waldman believes the best explanation is found in the Newsweek cover story that grew out of the survey. The conclusion it draws is that Americans have become so focused on a very personal style of worship -- that is, forging a direct relationship with God -- that spiritual experience has begun to supplant dogma, or teaching based on the authority of the Bible.
Makes ones heart ache for the lost and decieved. This shows
just how effective HaSatan has been in spreading a "counterfiet Gospel/False Jesus".

[Pioneer]

naildwithhim said:

elishava said:

As to Naild's question, my answer is they were redeemed by the blood first "saved" walked through the waters of "baptism" mikveh, and then given the instructions on how to walk out this redeemed life style. An example for the future generations.....i think so.

Absolutley perfect answer! Yep, that's Scriptural alright. The Law was never given as a means of Salvation. Period.

However, election is a whole different ballgame isn't it? Those who will share in the firstborn sonship of Meshiach will be keeping the Commandments. The Israelites were to be shining examples of YHVH's love for Jew and Gentile alike. Big difference between the letter that kills, and the Spirit that gives life. If there had been a Law that could grant one eternal life, surely righteousness would have come by the Law. The just shall live by faith. This establishes the Law.


Just my two cents. Hope it spends.



Naild

Naild, your gonna groan here! Close! The blood wasn't the agent of their redemption, only the sign for the Death Angel to passover, it was the strong arm of the Lord that saved them.

Yah's Salvation/Yeshua/lamb of God is the sign of our passover, this is the reason for the annual reheasal of Passover, like the tzit tzit, a reminder to hold on to our ticket to salvation. Keep the faith and remain saved. It is the strong arm of Adonai who sent the lamb of God for us to paint his blood on the lintels and doorposts of our hearts for our passover sign

Even "Replacement Theologist's" are saved by faith. Those who invented the theology will have to pay for misleading those who would follow.

Shema, hear the word, believe the word and be saved! then comes Shemar, observe the word/do the will of the father and enter the kingdom.

Salvation is the beginning, Election is the goal.

Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Re.22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

Who enters in and who is in outer darkness/outside the city?

[NaildWithHim]

Greetings Pioneer my friend,

I see no conflict of theology here. I'm prone to view the Covenants from the onset. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission. Bottom line. For the life is in the blood.



Shalom
Naild

[Pioneer]

naildwithhim said:

Greetings Pioneer my friend,

I see no conflict of theology here. I'm prone to view the Covenants from the onset. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission.

Once, for all.

To be a Jew!
Give up Idol worship(accept the Creator God),
Be circumcised (circumcised heart not made by hands), Do a mikvah(babtism),
Bring a sacrifice(lamb of God).
Behold a Jew!
Smell like an Olive!
Nefesh Y'hudi, (Fully fledged Messianic)(Of the Way)
Now, on to election. Do the will of the Father.

And to you friend!