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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 23, 2005 5:53:39 GMT -8
The title itself will cause many raised  . I have a question that bothers me. I was what you call a Christian for 28 years. I just recently became  -observant, knowledgeable of the . I have brought my whole family into the faith through my testimony. Now I have changed and I know they don't understand. My mother is always asking me questions. I used to be a "Word of Faith Believer" and I taught my family the concepts of faith. My mother caught on to this and became a strong believer in many of the principles. Now I have totally rejected the "Word Faith Teaching" and have become Observant. My friends tell me Christians are following a false Jesus. I do understand what they are saying. But they also say they are probably not saved.  I have a hard time with that. My mom, sister love God. I know they are not knowledgeable, but they are not studiers like me.  Are they going to hell? Are all non observant Believers going to Hell?  |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 23, 2005 17:29:30 GMT -8
Only G'd knows each person..." observant" or not....And, He knows whom are His. |
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 23, 2005 18:09:29 GMT -8
I was hoping for more of a reply........... ;D
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 23, 2005 18:53:47 GMT -8
Yeshua said that we shall know them by their fruits. If someone turns their ear deliberately from hearing , even their prayer is an abomination.... "He who turns away his ear from hearing , even his prayer is an abomination." - Mishlei (Pro.) 28:9 For such a one whom does this, what does it say about their relationship with G'd?? Although, many are on a path of sanctification slowly turning their ear more and more to hear the Fathers' . Only, Adonai knows the heart, whether or not it is one that is truly turned towards Him. Furthermore, we know that the writings of the Brit Chadashah (New. Test.) clearly say that faith without works is dead... "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead." - Ya'akov (Jam.) 2:26 And, these works are clearly found in , I firmly believe that those whom are saved will begin their walk in as Yechezkel (Ezekiel) clearly communicates in 36:26-27.... "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them." For these individuals it is not their walk in that has saved them, but it is their walking in that is manifest proof of the true faith that saves...For Yeshua says... "If you love me, keep my commandments." - Yochanan (John) 14:15 The Father says, if you love me keep my commandments... "showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." - Shemot (Exo.) 20:6 How do we love G'd and neighbor and thus fulfill ?... "By this we know that we love the children of G'd, when we love G'd and keep his commandments. For this is the love of G'd, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous." - 1Yochanan (1John) 5:2-3 Whom has true faith? Whom has true love for The Father and His Son?? Whom wishes to be apart of the family of G'd?.... "For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother." - Mattityahu (Matthew) 12:50 The Biblical measuring stick are those whom truly keep the commandments of G'd. This is how the holy ones of G'd will be characterized in the end times... "Here is the patience of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of G'd, and the faith of Yeshua." - Rev.14:12 But, this is only possible with the aid of His Spirit (Yechezkel/Ezek. 36:26-27). Those whom are carnal, not knowing G'd, whom do not have His Spirit...do not keep His commandments. As we saw earlier in the book of Yechezkel (Ezek.) and in the following passage, without the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), one cannot truly keep the Father's as He intended... "Because the carnal mind is enmity against G'd: for it is not subject to the law of G'd, neither indeed can be." - Romans 8:7 Salvation is truly by the grace of G'd through faith in Him and His son. But, this saying is sure; the true faith and the true love of G'd will indeed manifest itself in the keeping of His commandments. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Rick on Jun 24, 2005 19:13:38 GMT -8
 Hard act to follow, concise and articulate as usual Reuel, well said. Shalom Alechem
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jun 25, 2005 8:56:11 GMT -8
Well said Reuel.
To add to this I would say, that if the love of G-d is not in them, that too will be made manifest.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 25, 2005 20:40:19 GMT -8
Baruch HaShem, glory be to Him!  |
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 29, 2005 6:24:27 GMT -8
"sigh" What happens to those who have been deceived into believing that the law no longer applies to them? I mean not everyone is smart enough to study out things for themselves. They trust their pastors! Especially the older generation. What happens to them? BTW..thanks for all your replies.  |
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Shiloah
New Member
The light of the world - Yeshua
Posts: 33
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Post by Shiloah on Jun 29, 2005 16:04:53 GMT -8
I too am struggling with this topic. On the one hand we are saying that you can only be saved through favour, or grace, which cannot be earned. And that obeying is not for salvation, otherwise it would be us earning our salvation, right? And that by observing and keeping the commandments, we enter into many blessings, and this should bear out the truth that we are indeed His followers. I don't have any argument with this. If we have given our hearts to Him and received of His Spirit, we should be desiring more of him, and being convicted of our sin, because He lives in us. But, if I am new to this walk (which I am) and we are not keeping all the feasts (some I don't know how to "keep") or obeying in regards to wearing prayer shawls, or whatever, does this mean I miss out on salvation? Or, that if I had died five years ago (in my heart I was crying out to G-d at the time) would I not have been saved? Neither of my sons are circumsised. Will they not be saved, on that basis? I have been reading over and over these posts in the last weeks, and I am just getting more and more confused. I know many beautiful Christians who are shining examples of the L-rd's love and ministry who don't get "Sabbath" being seventh day. They have probably never thought it an issue, because they just thought for Christians the day to worship was Sunday. I thought that myself until quite recently. Does this mean they will go to hell? Doesn't this equal earning salvation? And yet there are all the verses you quote about "keeping the commandments" and it says somewhere we need to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" How can I have any assurance I am truly going to heaven? According to this, I would never know. Help!!! ;D And yet I know that you can't become a follower of Yeshua and then do whatever you please. If you are his follower, your heart should yearn to please Him and there is something wrong if that is not the case. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 29, 2005 22:38:30 GMT -8
True faith and love of G'd will be manifested in keeping the commandments that are made known to an individual. As the book of Yaakov (James) says, Faith without works is dead (2:26). How does faith come?...
"So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of G'd." - Romans 10:17
It is by the knowledge of the word of G'd that faith comes. Only G'd knows the true thoughts and intents of every individual. But, if one hears the word of G'd and does not do it, they neither have living faith (Yaakov/Jam.2:26), nor the Spirit of Elohim (Yechezkel/Ezek. 36:26-27). From this we know that living faith and the Spirit of G'd are both necessary for salvation. Yeshua said that we would know them by their fruit...not what they -say- they believe. Because it is by what one does that truly demonstrates what they believe. The fruit Yeshua speaks of is manifested by keeping His commandments.
As for the answer to your question, the one whom has been saved by grace through faith is the one whom will by the Spirit keep the commandments of G'd as they become aware of them. But, if a person hears the clear commandments of the Lord and rejects them, such a one's prayers are even abominations (Mishlei/Pro. 28:9). Those whom have the Spirit of the Lord will not continue to reject His commandments as they are made known to the individual...they will do this not because they are trying to earn their salvation, but because it is the new nature of such a one to do so. There are many wonderful nice people in this world of every religion...but, this does not guarantee them salvation. Only the ones whom do the will of the Father bear true spiritual fruit. But, for those whom willingly break His commandments are not so nice in the eyes of G'd because Yeshua The Messiah, God's Son, was sacrificed because of the sins of the world...Regardless of how unpopular it is, this is the right perspective.
We must remember that the Kingdom of Heaven is a not a popular organization…
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.” – Matt.7:13-14
How can we be assured of our salvation?...
"...Messiah as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." - Heb. 3:6
But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Messiah, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." - Heb. 3:13-14
We must have this saving faith stedfast unto the end. If we do, we will continue to be sanctified in our walk and keep His commandments more and more until the time of the coming of Messiah...and beyond.
Shalom aleychem chaverim,
Reuel
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Post by Mark on Jun 30, 2005 4:53:18 GMT -8
Reuel, I agree with you completely... sort of. But, my position mat be just wishful thinking on my part- these conclusions that I am presenting are more based upon my own experiences than upon the Word of God- therefore, proceed with caution: this is tainted material. I believe that it is a little more complicated than just the dos and the don'ts: those who obey when they hear and those who disobey. This is because the Church has taught that obedience is affectively sin and that the "true believer" must abandon . It doesn't take much information to receive the gift of eternal life. Many believed in Athens on the basis of one message (see Acts 17:31-34). There are those who we believe are unsaved (anti-nomian or lawless) who preach a salvation of grace through faith that is in perfect step with the message of Paul; but then, they go on to teach rebellion. I believe that folks can receive the gift of eternal life even through the testimony of a rebel. It is Adonai that does the work, not man. Yet, then these new believers are stuck under a false teacher- since he started out with truth, they have no reason to believe that he is leading them astray. Here's where my experiences really kick in: The true believer is not content with lies. Take a look at 1st John 5:1-10. While the young believer may sit under the teaching of heresy for a time, they will not be satisfied with it. The teaching they receive will either cause them to hop from church to church seeking truth or it will drive them to the Scriptures. The deceiver has become very effective in using the Bible to teach lawlessness. The one who possesses the Spirit will not be satisfied in their relationship with Adonai while under false doctrine. The true believer wrestles with the truth. Paul tells us that we are all carnal, sold under sin (Romans 7:14). We are prone to walk in the ways of lawlessness. The unredeemed have no problem with this at all. If the question arises about the contradiction within a way a Scripture is presented, they are grateful and accepting of whatever allows them to continue in the way they want to believe- that's the "seeking teachers with itching ears" thing in 2nd Timothy 4:3. The true believer will not be allowed by the Spirit to remain in wickedness. Whom the Lord loves, He chastens and scourges every son whom He receives (Hebrews 12:5-8). Remember that the context of Hebrews, chapters eleven and twelve is defining faith. Finally, true believers will gravitate toward truth regardless of their circumstances and the teaching they are under. In many cases this is slow moving. Often, I believe, it is a pull that is fought against even by the child of grace. Yet, it is irresistible. What I'm saying is that if a person says to you, "It's okay if I eat pork because we're not under the Law." It doesn't mean that the person is not truly saved. It does mean that, if he says that without conscience and conviction, he is not saved. It's easy for us to pick a half-dozen issues and say if a person is struggling in this area that he or she is not really a believer. I think if we look honestly, there are areas of our own lives in which the Spirit is convicting us and pricking us, over and over again. There are some things that He is changing in our own lives that we really would rather keep the same. The difference between the one who is called by Adonai and the unredeemed is that there is a relationship, a walk, a struggle. It is manifest in a goodness that is maturing in the person's life definable by , regardless of the person's acceptance of . This means that I can't say the Baptist preacher down the road is not going to heaven because he preaches antinomianism. It does mean that I have serious reason to question his salvation. But, if I am touting my good works as my legitimacy in the Kingdom, he has equal grounds to question mine. One ancient rabbi said, "Truth is a very thin line that is somewhere between two extremes." So, what do we do with this kind of information? Absolutely nothing different. We pray for those who are rejecting the truth. We preach the Word and bear testimony with our lives. We stand firm in the hope of salvation. It is not ours to know the fate of our brothers and sisters. In His wisdom, Adonai knows that such would likely cause us to become lazy, just as if we knew the day or the hour of His coming. |
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 30, 2005 7:39:30 GMT -8
" (Yechezkel/Ezek. 36:26-27). From this we know that The fruit Yeshua speaks of is manifested by keeping His commandments. How are you to know if you are bearing good fruit to repentance. Who is the judge. We ourselves? Couldn't that make us just like the Pharisees that Yeshua constantly reproved? As for the answer to your question, the one whom has been saved by grace through faith is the one whom will by the Spirit keep the commandments of G'd as they become aware of them. But, if a person hears the clear commandments of the Lord and rejects them, such a one's prayers are even abominations (Mishlei/Pro. 28:9). Those whom have the Spirit of the Lord will not continue to reject His commandments as they are made known to the individual...they will do this not because they are trying to earn their salvation, but because it is the new nature of such a one to do so. There are many wonderful nice people in this world of every religion...but, this does not guarantee them salvation. Only the ones whom do the will of the Father bear true spiritual fruit. But, for those whom willingly break His commandments are not so nice in the eyes of G'd because Yeshua The Messiah, God's Son, was sacrificed because of the sins of the world...Regardless of how unpopular it is, this is the right perspective. We must remember that the Kingdom of Heaven is a not a popular organization… "Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.” – Matt.7:13-14 How can we be assured of our salvation?... "...Messiah as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." - Heb. 3:6 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Messiah, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." - Heb. 3:13-14 We must have this saving faith stedfast unto the end. If we do, we will continue to be sanctified in our walk and keep His commandments more and more until the time of the coming of Messiah...and beyond. Shalom aleychem chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 30, 2005 7:46:07 GMT -8
Reuel, I agree with you completely... sort of. But, my position mat be just wishful thinking on my part- these conclusions that I am presenting are more based upon my own experiences than upon the Word of God- therefore, proceed with caution: this is tainted material. I believe that it is a little more complicated than just the dos and the don'ts: those who obey when they hear and those who disobey. This is because the Church has taught that obedience is affectively sin and that the "true believer" must abandon . It doesn't take much information to receive the gift of eternal life. Many believed in Athens on the basis of one message (see Acts 17:31-34). There are those who we believe are unsaved (anti-nomian or lawless) who preach a salvation of grace through faith that is in perfect step with the message of Paul; but then, they go on to teach rebellion. I believe that folks can receive the gift of eternal life even through the testimony of a rebel. It is Adonai that does the work, not man. Yet, then these new believers are stuck under a false teacher- since he started out with truth, they have no reason to believe that he is leading them astray. Here's where my experiences really kick in: The true believer is not content with lies. Take a look at 1st John 5:1-10. While the young believer may sit under the teaching of heresy for a time, they will not be satisfied with it. The teaching they receive will either cause them to hop from church to church seeking truth or it will drive them to the Scriptures. The deceiver has become very effective in using the Bible to teach lawlessness. The one who possesses the Spirit will not be satisfied in their relationship with Adonai while under false doctrine. The true believer wrestles with the truth. Paul tells us that we are all carnal, sold under sin (Romans 7:14). We are prone to walk in the ways of lawlessness. The unredeemed have no problem with this at all. If the question arises about the contradiction within a way a Scripture is presented, they are grateful and accepting of whatever allows them to continue in the way they want to believe- that's the "seeking teachers with itching ears" thing in 2nd Timothy 4:3. The true believer will not be allowed by the Spirit to remain in wickedness. Whom the Lord loves, He chastens and scourges every son whom He receives (Hebrews 12:5-8). Remember that the context of Hebrews, chapters eleven and twelve is defining faith. Finally, true believers will gravitate toward truth regardless of their circumstances and the teaching they are under. In many cases this is slow moving. Often, I believe, it is a pull that is fought against even by the child of grace. Yet, it is irresistible. What I'm saying is that if a person says to you, "It's okay if I eat pork because we're not under the Law." It doesn't mean that the person is not truly saved. It does mean that, if he says that without conscience and conviction, he is not saved. It's easy for us to pick a half-dozen issues and say if a person is struggling in this area that he or she is not really a believer. I think if we look honestly, there are areas of our own lives in which the Spirit is convicting us and pricking us, over and over again. There are some things that He is changing in our own lives that we really would rather keep the same. The difference between the one who is called by Adonai and the unredeemed is that there is a relationship, a walk, a struggle. It is manifest in a goodness that is maturing in the person's life definable by , regardless of the person's acceptance of . This means that I can't say the Baptist preacher down the road is not going to heaven because he preaches antinomianism. It does mean that I have serious reason to question his salvation. But, if I am touting my good works as my legitimacy in the Kingdom, he has equal grounds to question mine. One ancient rabbi said, "Truth is a very thin line that is somewhere between two extremes." So, what do we do with this kind of information? Absolutely nothing different. We pray for those who are rejecting the truth. We preach the Word and bear testimony with our lives. We stand firm in the hope of salvation. It is not ours to know the fate of our brothers and sisters. In His wisdom, Adonai knows that such would likely cause us to become lazy, just as if we knew the day or the hour of His coming.
The problem for me now is the assurance of my salvation. I don't seem to have it anymore. I was strong in it before, but now I doubt.
I can't say I am living the perfectly. There are still some areas that I am not sure of. Lots of years of brainwashing to undo............ |
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Post by Blake on Jun 30, 2005 8:56:12 GMT -8
My friend, We are all sinners and trangressors of the perfect Law set forth from the mouth of finger of God through the hand of Moses. Moses himself who was the oracle of the did not walk perfectly in its ways. David also was a murderer and adulterer, but callled a man after God's own heart. Why? Because of his repentance. I'm not talking repentance like, "Dear God I sinned, sorry" I mean feeling the sorrow of breaking God's holy commandments. Walk in the as best you can and when you transgress ask God to remember the sacrifice of of His son and have his blood blot them out. Pray for streangth and guidence in the commandments which you fail in. If you do these things your salvation is something you can always be sure of. Salvation cannot be lost, only forfeited. Also remember God judges man individually by the light he has received. Christians who do not know to follow the but walk in the commandments they know can be covered by Messiah's blood. He pleads for us now, telling his Father to remember the tree on Golgotha. Shalom friend. |
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 30, 2005 13:21:24 GMT -8
Thank you Blake.........I notice you are quite young.......where did a guy so young learn so much wisdom? |
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-observant, knowledgeable of the 
Hard act to follow, concise and articulate as usual Reuel, well said.
