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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 30, 2005 22:18:20 GMT -8
 If you keep the faith until the end you will be saved and the fruits will be present. Because faith without works is dead. Therefore, alive faith is manifested by the works thereof. "Avraham said to him, They have Moshe and the Prophets, let them hear them. But he said, No, father Avraham, but if one should go from the dead to them, they will repent. And he said to him, If they will not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if one from the dead should rise." - Luke 16:29-31 The word of G'd is our judge and good fruits have always been measured by this.... "All Scripture is G'd-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, so that the man of G'd may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work." - 2Tim. 3:16-17 Shalom sister, Reuel
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Post by Blake on Jul 1, 2005 5:53:23 GMT -8
Thank you Blake.........I notice you are quite young.......where did a guy so young learn so much wisdom?  Do think I am wise, for I am not. I simply was lucky enough to have learned the Scriptures from the time I was a young child from my grandmother and going to an Adventist school until seventh grade. Keep the faith my friend. |
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Post by BarvazGumy on Jul 12, 2005 2:30:47 GMT -8
I returned to the church I used to attend for the recent funeral of an uncle. Hardly knowing this uncle, I came just to support my first husband's parents, especially Dad, since it was his younger brother who had died. But sitting there through the rhetoric, the music, the staged religiosity was difficult, and my daughter and I were glad to get out, to breathe free air outside of that place.
However, I had been one of their lackeys for just over 50 years, and when I was kicked out, turning to Messianism, I left a lot of acquaintances as well as family. I may not have been treated well toward the end in that church, but I do not for one second believe that the majority of these people do not know G-d. While I recognize that some are delibertely errant, most of these are following G-d to the best of their knowledge.
Some of those who have walked away from the church, and have come under the Messianic umbrella, are very fortunate indeed to have recognized Truth and to have sought it to what we see as the nth degree. However, we dare not take on an elitist idea that we have all the Truth nailed down and that all those outside it are lost. That Pharisaical idea is why our L-rd said that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, because self-righteousness depends upon ourselves, rather than on the righteousness that comes purely from HaShem.
While the church as a whole is definitely errant, we who have found Messianism are not perfect either. Many who call themselves Messianic are still just as deceived as we all once were, still following after certain church-bred falacies that lead down that proverbial slippery slope. We dare not take on the idea what we have cornered the Truth, because as soon as we do, pride will blind us.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 13, 2005 21:37:19 GMT -8
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness. Your  (law) is truth." - Tehillim (Psa.) 119:142 Is there any debate here as to the truth of the above statement? Unfortunately, there is a stark difference between those whom actually believe the above...and those whom don't. You can't even repent of sin if you don't recognize what it is...right? And, you have to repent to be forgiven...right? If G'd comes and tells us what sin is and that we should repent of it (t'shuva)...to turn from it...and we refuse to trust Him and have faith in Him as to what sin is...will we be forgiven if we don't repent? If someone has a Bible or a TeNaKh they are without excuse because each one is held accountable. On judgement day they will not be able to point to their local pastor and blame them.... "He has shown you, O man, what is good. What does YHVH require of you, but to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your G'd?" - Mikhah 6:8 "This is the end of the matter. All has been heard. Fear G'd, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man." - Kohelet (Ecc.) 12:13 For no matter how much someone proclaims otherwise...faith -without- works is dead (Yaakov/James 2:26). It it is the works of the Father that this passage speaks of...not what we think is good. No matter how sincere we think we are, we cannot be saved from a false gospel (or, a false message of good news). For this message includes the repentance of Biblical sin defined by . The true faith that saves comes from hearing, and that is hearing the word of G'd (Rom.10:17). When the Shema says, "Hear", it means hear with the intent to obey. Faith without works is dead. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by NaildWithHim on Jul 15, 2005 16:44:09 GMT -8
In regards to the last two posts in this thread, I think both of you have very good points. However, I am of the opinion that certain believers who are blinded to now, will have an opportunity to learn it in the reign of Meshiach Yeshua. (Isa 66:23 JPS) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the LORD. (Mic 4:1-2 JPS) But in the end of days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths'; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Never underestimate our Redeeming YHVH. He will accomplish that which He sets out to do. Nor forget mercy in judgement. Naild |
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Post by BarvazGumy on Jul 15, 2005 19:48:18 GMT -8
Indeed.
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Post by messimom on Jul 15, 2005 23:17:06 GMT -8
This a much debated topic where I live also. I believe, yes, "all who call on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved." Many of us called Yeshua that before we ever knew his true identity. We simply knew that there was a God, His Son came and died for us, and we will be with Him one day. Period. We were all blinded at one time, and I don't believe we could have arrived at this point without the prompting of the Ruach HaKodesh. I have seen people dramatically changed in a split second upon testifying in Yeshua as L-rd. That is YHVH. YHVH knows your heart, he knows if you love him, no matter if you call him G-d or YHVH and Jesus or Yashua. Those who do not follow just don't walk as closely to YHVH as they could. If they only knew. There is so much freedom in . I think it comes down to this: 1st Corinthians 3:1: But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. 2: I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, 3: for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men? 4: For when one says, "I belong to Paul," and another, "I belong to Apol'los," are you not merely men? 5: What then is Apol'los? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6: I planted, Apol'los watered, but God gave the growth. 7: So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8: He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. 9: For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10: According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11: For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12: Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13: each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. If your foundation is Yeshua, you'll make it, although you may need some refining. Just my thoughts. Messimom |
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Post by NaildWithHim on Jul 16, 2005 11:38:07 GMT -8
Good post messimom. A study of 'fire' and it's Biblical useage concerning judgement is a real eye opener. It's purpose is not one of torment as supposed by some, but rather, a cleansing of sin. Those who are saved 'as by fire' once cleansed from sin will be the subjects of the King and His co-rulers (heirs of all things). These will be ruled over by a rod of iron, which is representative of the Law of G-d, for the Law shall go forth out of Zion. The millenial reign of Meshiach will be a time of great spiritual healing in my estimation, and culminates in the restoration of all things.
Just a few more thoughts on this subject.
Shalom,
Naild
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 17, 2005 19:09:05 GMT -8
I am familiar with universal theology and I don't believe scripture supports it. I don't believe everyone will be saved in the end after they go through some type of hellfire cleansing. A few supporting passages... "Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment..." - Heb. 9:27 "For narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way that leads away into life, and few are the ones finding it." - Mat. 7:14 Today is the day of salvation for we do not know what tomorrow holds. Salvation is by faith through the grace of G'd, yet our works truly show what we believe. If His Spirit is living in us and guiding us and we are not quenching it in our walk with G'd...we will not reject His (Ezek.36:26-27). Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by messimom on Jul 17, 2005 22:28:19 GMT -8
So you believe then that you are not "saved" until you call Him Yeshua and fully understand your relationship? How many chances has YHVH given Judah and Ephriam to still be His, why then wouldn't He afford the same chances to each person on an individual basis concerning their spiritual growth and understanding? Not "Oh you screwed up, someone taught you that is truth and you didn't believe them, so off to Gehenna with you." I guess I just believe that YHVH knows our hearts and knows if we submit to him, whether or not we follow . Many won't follow because of a deep mistrust of anyone who tells them anything other than what they have known in their Sunday church. They may hear but not listen. I'm really not good at pulling up specific scripture so I guess I can't really explain thoroughly why I believe as I do, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I pulled out your quote (Reuel) above because I think that verse is to be applied to the complete world history. And even if you add up and include every god-fearing Christian who goes around calling YHVH G-d and Yeshua "Jesus", Christians have always been a minority in the world. Even today with the world as massively populated as it is, a quarter are Christian(last I heard) and that is a minority in my book. And I believe many of those are Catholic, who I don't think are saved, so the real number of Christians is even lower. And over history, that trend doesn't change much as far as I know, so that means Christians (including main stream Christians) are still the "few" finding the gate, not just those who follow . |
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Post by messimom on Jul 17, 2005 22:31:41 GMT -8
Let me also add that I also don't think everyone will be saved after passing thru fire. Just those already having accepted Yeshua as Messiah but needing refining. Which will be everyone I know. It may burn, but in the end we are refined, and fit to enter his kingdom.
Messimom
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 18, 2005 19:19:40 GMT -8
Shalom Messimom, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't believe the above. The Father magnifies His word above all His name (Tehillim/Psa. 138:2) because it is His word which represents His name. In regards to the process of salvation, new believers first must repent of their sin (breaking ) and believe the Good News when they first come to Messiah. They then begin their process of sanctification as they learned how to keep as we see in Acts 15:21. Can someone be saved from believing a false gospel? If one does not truly repent of their sin, have they really believed the Good News? If we have been saved, and the Spirit of G'd truly lives in us, and we are truly guided by it...we will not reject The Father's (His instruction in our lives) continually. What type of servant rejects the instruction of his/her lord? The answer is; one whom is really not a servant of that lord. Of course it is a process of sanctification, and we are not totally obedient all at once. Even Israel did not receive all at once. But, we are responsible along the way for what G'd reveals to us, as where they. If we come to a certain point in our relationship with Him in which He reveals His will for us and we reject it, than He is no longer our lord if we continue to reject His instruction in our life. There are many whom did this in the wilderness as YHVH led the children of Israel to the Promised Land. But, many of them did not enter in because of disbelief, which was manifested by their works. These things were for our example (1Cr.10:6). Will not Messiah Himself reject those whom call him lord, but live lawless lives (Mat.7:23)? Yeshua said that we would know them by their fruits (Mat. 12:33). I trust what He said is true. He did not say that we will know them by what they profess. Yes, many may be deceived, but if we have the Spirit of G'd, it will lead us through the deception if we are not quenching it. As attested by the prophet Yechezkel (Ezekiel), if one has the Spirit of G'd, His Spirit will cause such a one to keep His commandments.... "And I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them." - Yechezkel (Ezek.) 36:26-27 The above is either true, or not. The above does not say that once someone is indwelled by the Spirit that they will reject His . It rejects that idea totally. Indeed, if someone has the Spirit of G'd, it will lead such a one into all truth (Yochanan/Jhn 16:13). What is truth?... "Your righteousness is forever, and Your is truth." - Tehillim/Psa. 119:142 Faith without works is dead (Ya'akov/Jam. 2:25). What works and fruit reveal what we believe? Is it not the word of G'd that defines what these works and fruit should look like (Rom.10:17)? Don't get me wrong, their fruits do not save them, but their fruit is a natural expression of their true spiritual nature. For the carnal person does not keep , indeed it is impossible for them to even begin to do so (Rom.8:7). It is the Father's works which reveal if our faith is true, not the works and fruits of anti-nomian, apostate Christianity. Only Adonai knows the end of each individual and whom will be saved in the end, and whom will not. But, truly...we shall know them by their fruits...not by how sincere they are in believing the lie. If fact, many are given over to the lie if they reject the truth for too long (2Th.2:11). YHVH is a just judge. Many will live long enough to finally repent and serve Adonai. Sadly for most...this will not be the case. Shalom achoit, Reuel |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jul 19, 2005 11:12:56 GMT -8
I have been watching this thread pretty closely for a while and after seeing Reuel's latest post, I feel I must concur. For I truly believe that one cannot be saved by a false Gospel. Since the defines for us what sin is, but is not taught by apostate Christianity, then how does one know what they need to repent of? The hebrew word for repentance is "t'shuva." It means to "turn back." Therefore, one cannot repent or "turn back" to if they don't acknowledge its existence. |
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Post by Rick on Jul 19, 2005 18:15:00 GMT -8
If you want to see a frightening example of false gospel and "blind leading the blind" read the transcript of Larry Kings interview with "Pastor" Joel Osteen.  transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/03/lkl.01.htmlAll you can do I suppose is pray for people like this, and don't stand in an open field with them................................ Rick |
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Post by messimom on Jul 20, 2005 22:20:00 GMT -8
Every Christian I know includes repentance of sin when they offer up the "salvation prayer" and also believes in asking YHVH for forgiveness of sin in their daily lives. Just because they do not know the full definition of sin, does that mean they are following a false gospel? I think its more like an incomplete gospel. Even the allows for a person guilty of a sin which they did not know they committed to be forgiven at a later time, when they then become aware of their sin. If I understand this passage correctly, there is allowance for the person to become aware of something being a sin after they have committed it. A small word study of the phrase used in verse 28 "is made known to him" reveals this: Lexicon Results for yada` (Strong's 03045) Hebrew for 03045 Pronunciation Guide yada` {yaw-dah'} TWOT Reference Root Word TWOT - 848 a primitive root Part of Speech v Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to know a) (Qal) 1) to know a) to know, learn to know
b) to perceive
c) to perceive and see, find out and discernd) to discriminate, distinguish e) to know by experience f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess g) to consider So, as we can see, the meaning in the verse is that when a person LEARNS that he/she has sinned, they can then repent. So again I ask, would you hold this person accountable for sins against before they know they are sins? I don't believe YHVH does....but the gracious Hashem does expect us to repent of our sins against when we are made aware of them. So, I would think, a person doing a basic repentance of transgressions against YHVH (who does not have knowledge of the continuing validity of ) would be adequate as far as salvation goes. I do not consider myself an expert in any field, nor do I feel I am above retort or reproach, feel free to show me otherwise. One of the wondeful things I have found in being Messianic, is the willingness to learn and grow--even, if not especially, when it is contrary to what one currently holds to be true. What I have written above is just what I understand as of now. Shalom and thank you all for being such a wonderful sounding board and discussion group.... Messimom |
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as best you can and when you transgress ask God to remember the sacrifice of of His son and have his blood blot them out. Pray for streangth and guidence in the commandments which you fail in.
