Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
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Post by Pioneer on Oct 11, 2005 21:19:02 GMT -8
Naild, have you taken the time to check out the information I gave you about scholars back translating the gospels from Greek to Hebrew, people like Drs Blizzard and Dr Bivins? Their work if you care to check it out shows what parts were originally penned in Hebrew, they say much of those manuscripts go back into Hebrew with great ease, the areas that almost defy back translation are the areas that are questioned by most scholars. Things like Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Another way to see they were Hebrew is to look at the "ands", starting sentances with an "and" lousy Greek but great Hebrew. Like you and Reuel said not the topic. But I will add just one more comment, take away the Hebrew writers, and you have nothing. The subject is "Will Christians be saved." My original statement is "Yes those who hear the word of God and believes in the one who sent him." Jn 5:24 That was the subject of the Kingdom of heaven, Mt.13:44-52 Yeshua is the one who found the Am Segulah in the field, and is the one who found the Pearl of great value, and gave up all his posessions to buy them both into the kingdom of God. Again salvation is so easy! Children get saved regularlly, how beautiful on the mountain are the feet of them that preach the good news, faith comes with hearing. All those who keep the faith are saved come hell or high water. Saved by Faith Alone! One doesn't have to walk on hot coals, jump through hoops, walk on water, call upon the name of the Lord and it's a done deal as long as you keep the faith. NOW! You're saved. Now is where the rubber hits the road. Good works are expected from you if you wish to be "Great" in the kingdom. All his promises of rewards and being over cities or any of those type things are for workers, servants those who are forever watchful and is caught doing the will of the Father. Yeah and keeping his commands. This is where the "Elect" come from, those who never cease to visit the sick, jailed, feeding widows and orphans, studying the word, provide for a bride, escort the dead and early attendence at the house of worship! Do these things and you will have "Treasure in heaven." Earn "Crowns" and possibly rule and reign with him and have the right to enter the gates of the city. Mt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Just my opinion, but this is not a put down of the scribes and Pharisees. He is telling me that only the best will walk those streets of Gold. Kinda humbling aint it!! All I can expect is to be just a tad bit better off than those who say the  is done away with. Okay, we have just gotten past another Rosh HaShanah, so God willing we may have another year to serve Him and store up some more "Treasure in heaven." Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to work we go! Whistle while you work. Whistle a happy tune-------! |
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Post by NaildWithHim on Oct 11, 2005 21:56:24 GMT -8
Hello Pioneer,
I do believe we have agreed upon Salvation vs. Election from our first meeting over a year ago. Salvation is getting your foot in the door, and election is the blessing that is bestowed to the wise and faithful servant. Vast difference!
Anyway, you asked...........
Do you have a link?
Shalom
Naild
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Pioneer
Full Member
Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Oct 12, 2005 10:48:48 GMT -8
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Oct 20, 2005 16:10:54 GMT -8
 Amein brother!
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 26, 2007 8:11:34 GMT -8
Few were reared "Messianic" or with the understanding most here exhibit. Many of us came out of the churches, Pblondeau46. Most of us had very similar starting points with similar questions. But HaShem is just, looking upon the heart and not upon the obvious. I, as most here, was once profoundly ignorant of , ignorant of HaShem's halachah. People like us would have looked on my Sunday-after-church-pork-chop-and-lobster-filled plate and thought, "Lost cause!" But HaShem knows which ones will truly follow, and which ones are playing the game, before they even know that there are questions to be asked. |
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 27, 2007 16:53:49 GMT -8
Interesting as I been doing the study on Hebrews which is taken me in Acts alot.
It's coming together for me.
One thing that I've learned is about Gentiles in relation to the God of Israel.
If you study Acts like I've been you will see that it's not that Jews "converted" to Christianity, it's always been that if you are a Gentile the only "religion" is the God of Israel.
It got tainted but that's the way G-d "intended" it to be. Sojourners(Gentiles) were accepted when they believed in the God of Israel making them "apart" of Israel. Ruth is a good example.
In other words there is only ONE "religion". G-d said Israel would be a perculiar people.
Being a Jew myself this a HUGE revelation to me.
Hard for people to digest but it's the truth.
The Pastor that I have weekly Bible study with thinks I'm confused.
The truth is I'm not. You see the way I was taught was to look from the NT to the OT. You can't. One has to look at the OT first like looking at the NT with OT binoculars if that makes sense.
So I was wondering about how all this plays in this Christian world when so many Christians are involved with something different which goes against Deuteronomy 13.
When Pioneer referred in a post about there being 3500 religions I didn't get what he was talking about.
Now I do.
Marc
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 27, 2007 17:48:49 GMT -8
Shalom Marc,
So now you are beginning to understand that there is in fact one true religion, but Christianity is not that religion, Judaism is. Welcome back to HaShem my friend!
Shavua Tov,
Natanel
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 27, 2007 19:53:38 GMT -8
Amein, amein, amein, amein, amein, Marc and Natanel!!
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 28, 2007 6:44:54 GMT -8
My question is that since it's the "intention" for Gentiles to become part of the family(God of Israel) how does this new "religion" called Christianity come to play in regards to salvation?
I do believe that one can how can I say it, believe in Yeshua outside of Judaism BUT .... Yeshua is starting to "be" different than what I was taught in Christianity if I'm making sense.
That He is the same voice at Sinai that the people of Israel trembled and were afraid as Moses was, dark cloud, trumpet blowing; the people wanted it to stop. Christianity makes it that G-d isn't like that now.
Marc
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 28, 2007 11:59:14 GMT -8
Marc, I am not a teacher, having entirely too much to learn myself. But I love your questions I have read here and there. Please know, Marc, that unfortunately, some Messianics are now saying that: - Messiah is just messiah, not of the godhead
- others that He is all there is
- others that He was a great teacher and a great man
We, at my shul, understand that Yeshua is part of the Three: Father, Son, H-ly Spirit, but not because of the Christian creeds that have been written, rewritten, and memorized for centuries, held above Scripture, and memorized more than Scripture. From the simplest Scriptures, we believe this because the Father was there at creation, while John says that Yeshua was the Creator, and because the H-ly Spirit moved upon the waters. We believe it because while Messiah was in His miqvah, HaShem spoke from His heaven, and the H-ly Spirit descended as a dove and sat upon Him. But we also understand that He is Judge and as such, He is merciful where His blood calls for mercy but powerful, stern, and FINAL where His blood does not cover. He is called, in the Scriptures, Mighty G-d, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. In that same Scripture, He is called Wonderful, a name/word clearly usually associated with G-d. And every Sabbath, we pray, (from the KJV, since it is the only one handy at my desk at this moment) We are such a Greek-thinking world, and the church is steeped purely in Greek teaching and ideas, having rejected Hebrew thought in the first centuries c.e. and ever since. We think linearly, while the Bible was written by a people whom HaShem chose on purpose, and they were not Greek-thinkers; they were Hebrews -- block-thinkers. The Greek mindset will always struggle with, be in opposition to, Hebrew thought, because they are simply so different. But HaShem did not choose Greek-thinkers to write His Word. He chose people who were Hebrews, reared as Hebrews, who knew how to write in Hebrew and/or Aramaic and/or Greek. Greek thought demands that these things regarding Yeshua be settled, and by doing so, they have dumbed Him down, they have made Him all "sweetness and light," and, in SOME cases, they have turned Him into an effeminate blond-haired, blue-eyed pansy who preaches only "love." Doing this ignores that He is the Ultimate Judge, ignores His beyond-understood power, ignores the picture John the Revelator painted of Him in Revelation. However, Hebrew thought can embrace all that He is: Wonderful, gentle Counselor, King of kings, Shepherd, Almighty G-d, embracer of little ones, Judge of the earth, wine-maker, Creator, . . . He is all of these at once, as a loving father is the "little picture" of Him, being toward a child the provider, advisor, punisher, final say in the home, comforter, etc. But, Marc, when our G-d has become easily defined, easily labeled, He has become too small. He is so beyond our thoughts and imaginations, that with Hebrew thinking -- block thinking that can hold all these things in tension -- we can be at peace with Him being more than we can explain or grasp. |
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Jan 28, 2007 16:23:44 GMT -8
My question is that since it's the "intention" for Gentiles to become part of the family(God of Israel) how does this new "religion" called Christianity come to play in regards to salvation? I do believe that one can how can I say it, believe in Yeshua outside of Judaism BUT .... Yeshua is starting to "be" different than what I was taught in Christianity if I'm making sense. That He is the same voice at Sinai that the people of Israel trembled and were afraid as Moses was, dark cloud, trumpet blowing; the people wanted it to stop. Christianity makes it that G-d isn't like that now. Marc Marc, My Hebrew teacher is a Jew, he teaches that Mt.24:29 is the Hebrew rapture (Loosely speaking) just how will those in Christianity feel when that old version of God darkens the heavens, there is no sun , moon nor star, just total darkness, it doesn't say for how long, but say for 24 to 144 hours, how much fear will be wroght, then when everyone thinks all is lost, a light like the Sunrise from the East to the West an the great Trumpet sounds and Righteous Jews are raised and some of those who see them as dead branches good only to fuel the fires of hell, are not in that resurrection. Some Christians who are alive do not rise to meet him in the air! Left Behind! Who would have thought that a Christian who believes in Jesus, being Left Behind? But the "First resurrection is for those who were beheaded for their testimony of Yeshua and the word of God, who have not bowed a knee to baal nor recieved his mark. I personally do not see a single "Lawless Christian" in that first resurrection. Christianity boiled it down to the two great commandments, which is very good, but how many of them live that way, what a marvelous world if everyone who claims Christianity live by those two great commandments. But alas, they "Let Jesus do it" and ride his coattails. When we Messianics get our act together and Love God with all our hearts, our spirits and all our resources and Love our neighbors as our selves(Mankind including the Jew) and live in the manner the Mashiach told us, we will cause a little jealousy in the Land of Israel. But that is not today, but it's coming soon. So Marc, I am so pleased you are seeing Yeshua as the "Word of God" that word that scared the people and will scare them again. never forget he will rule with a "rod of Iron." This Jesus who turned the other cheek. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I enjoy hearing your testimony, God Speed, Marc. Shalom |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 28, 2007 20:10:57 GMT -8
My question is that since it's the "intention" for Gentiles to become part of the family(God of Israel) how does this new "religion" called Christianity come to play in regards to salvation? I do believe that one can how can I say it, believe in Yeshua outside of Judaism BUT .... Yeshua is starting to "be" different than what I was taught in Christianity if I'm making sense. That He is the same voice at Sinai that the people of Israel trembled and were afraid as Moses was, dark cloud, trumpet blowing; the people wanted it to stop. Christianity makes it that G-d isn't like that now. Marc I must warn you. What I am about to say will offend some people, so if you are easily offended, then please do not read the rest of this post. If not, then feel free to read on.  Christianity comes into play as a false religion. It is a counterfeit (though cleverly packaged) to the one true faith of HaShem. Everything they do is the polar opposite of truth. From the nature of the Mashiach, to Christmas, Easter, and one of the biggest lies of all.... Replacement Theology (The Church is the new "Spiritual" Israel). If a Goy wishes to join with Israel into the true way of HaShem and leave behind the idolatry of the Church, then they must follow the established practice of accepting the minimum mitzvot (see Acts 15 and the Sheva Mitzvot of the Bnei Noach), with the intent to learn and do more as they study the . I might add that while Goyim are not required to convert, they are definitely encouraged to do so. As for believing that Rabbi Y'hoshua is the Mashiach outside of Judaism, I'm afraid that it is impossible. For if you extricate him from his Jewishness and Pharisaical surroundings and instead add qualities to him which are non-Jewish and completely foreign, then what you end up with is the blond-haired, blue-eyed, Torahless, Christian "Jesus." Again I must recommend this article from Yashanet if you truly want to get to know the historical Rabbi Y'hoshua. Not Subject to the Law of G-d? If you have not read it yet, it is a must read. Tzav_laTzav, We actually have a thread for discussing the Trinity doctrine. As you can see, it's been a pretty hot issue. You can read over the material here, and if there is some new input you wish to add, just pm myself or one of the other moderators and we'll see about unlocking the thread. TrinityShavua Tov all, Natanel |
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 28, 2007 22:26:29 GMT -8
Thank you, Natanel! I sent an email to myself, to remind me to look into it. I doubt I will ever understand Him, so I play Alfred E. Neuman and just don't worry about it! : )
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 29, 2007 1:16:13 GMT -8
Natanel I'm not offended because I'm gaining understanding through the scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit that your post is true. Marc My question is that since it's the "intention" for Gentiles to become part of the family(God of Israel) how does this new "religion" called Christianity come to play in regards to salvation? I do believe that one can how can I say it, believe in Yeshua outside of Judaism BUT .... Yeshua is starting to "be" different than what I was taught in Christianity if I'm making sense. That He is the same voice at Sinai that the people of Israel trembled and were afraid as Moses was, dark cloud, trumpet blowing; the people wanted it to stop. Christianity makes it that G-d isn't like that now. Marc I must warn you. What I am about to say will offend some people, so if you are easily offended, then please do not read the rest of this post. If not, then feel free to read on. Christianity comes into play as a false religion. It is a counterfeit (though cleverly packaged) to the one true faith of HaShem. Everything they do is the polar opposite of truth. From the nature of the Mashiach, to Christmas, Easter, and one of the biggest lies of all.... Replacement Theology (The Church is the new "Spiritual" Israel). If a Goy wishes to join with Israel into the true way of HaShem and leave behind the idolatry of the Church, then they must follow the established practice of accepting the minimum mitzvot (see Acts 15 and the Sheva Mitzvot of the Bnei Noach), with the intent to learn and do more as they study the . I might add that while Goyim are not required to convert, they are definitely encouraged to do so. As for believing that Rabbi Y'hoshua is the Mashiach outside of Judaism, I'm afraid that it is impossible. For if you extricate him from his Jewishness and Pharisaical surroundings and instead add qualities to him which are non-Jewish and completely foreign, then what you end up with is the blond-haired, blue-eyed, Torahless, Christian "Jesus." Again I must recommend this article from Yashanet if you truly want to get to know the historical Rabbi Y'hoshua. Not Subject to the Law of G-d? If you have not read it yet, it is a must read. Tzav_laTzav, We actually have a thread for discussing the Trinity doctrine. As you can see, it's been a pretty hot issue. You can read over the material here, and if there is some new input you wish to add, just pm myself or one of the other moderators and we'll see about unlocking the thread. TrinityShavua Tov all, Natanel |
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Post by Mark on Jan 29, 2007 5:02:10 GMT -8
Many Christian folk come to me with a question commonly prefaced with, "Don't Jews believe...?" I always put my hands up and cause them to step back just a little. There are very few doctrines that you can place under the blanket of Judaism and say all Jews believe such and such. We have to do the same thing with Christianity. To say Christians are all against is a gross over-statement. We could say (in speaking of the majority) that Christians all embrace homosexuality. Yet, within every congregation of Churches in my community you will find at least some who will take exception to that. I've met Catholics who walk in a sincere relationship with Adonai, walking in faith. I've met Protestants who have desire to grow and walk in obedience to (though some of them will define their pursuit very differently). David Lancaster (First Fruits of Zion) has stated that many Christians are growing and learning to walk in without even realizing that is what they are doing! Sure, they have some anti-nomian (sometimes anti-semitic) hang-ups; but Adonai is sluffing off the old things in the order and with the priorities that are most honoring to Him. If a drug-dealer comes to me and says, "I think God's telling me that I need to stop eating pork." My inclination is to change his direction. "Maybe there are some other issues that you should be working on." At the same time, as Messianic, Sabbath keeping and kosher eating are very important to me. Who am I to suggest that by demanding the mitzvot on my agenda, I am getting in the way o fthe work that Adonai is otherwise doing in someone's life? No, I don't believe we can diagnose a person's spiritual condition on the basis of what they keep in their freezer, nor even if they honor the Sabbath. Nor can we condemn one who worships in a building where there is erected a cross (as opposed to a Star of David). Marc, I might suggest offering your pastor friend to start with reading "The Jesus I Never Knew" or "What's So Amazing About Grace", both by Philip Yancy. Yancy is a name that he will recognize as a Christian; and no, he's not Messianic... at least not openly. Yet, he presents a perspective that begins to ask the right questions, leading in the direction of what we believe. |
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is done away with.
