Salvational security

[johnd]

Mar 9, 2015 0:16:24 GMT -8 alon said:

I believe all those points were already answered. Simply repeating them does not a good argument make.

I believe I made the point that I made a mistake in repeating myself. I did not realize I had already responded to this thread. But in the recent response I spelled out the scriptures I had only alluded to previously.

As to them making a good argument... all scripture makes for a good argument especially opposing opinion / speculation / and no scripture quotes.

Mar 8, 2015 20:43:49 GMT -8 johnd said:

you were never saved in the first place if you do turn away from salvation.

Yes, a very convenient doctrine. I was told this all the time growing up, and I recognized it as just an excuse for the obvious fact that some do walk away. It's one of the reasons I left the "church."

You left the Church, or you left God?

And some walk away proving they were never saved.

Look, friend, your argument is with the Author of 1 John 2:19.

Judges 16:20 “She said, "Shimshon! The P'lishtim have come for you!" He awoke from his sleep and said, "I'll get out this time, just as I shook myself loose before." But he didn't know that ADONAI had left him.”

This is the danger I see in such doctrines. Because of disobedience, the result of such doctrines as eternal security, too many otherwise strong Christians find themselves shorn, blinded and chained to a spiritual gristmill. God has left them and they don't even know it! Samson thought God would be with him no matter what. He forgot it was his choice; he is the one who was supposed to be with God. And God can and will leave His own if we leave Him.

Dan C

Samson was under the old covenant. The cross changes everything.

John 16:26–27 (NASB95)
26“In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;
27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.

John 3:16–18 (NASB95)
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I quoted 1 Corinthians 5:5 to show what happens with extreme disobedience in the body of Messiah (believers).

[johnd]

Mar 9, 2015 12:43:20 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Johnd
How would you answer the following:
Gen. 2:4 And the serpent said unto the women, Ye shall not surely die:
Didn’t the woman have eternal life? Isn’t the serpent’s lie that the woman can disobey God and still have eternal life? The original lie is still going strong. You can disobey God and still have eternal life.

The woman did not have eternal life already... the tree of life was in the garden as well. Why? If they had eternal life already? And why were they commanded to be fruitful and multiply (prior to the fall) if they would live forever?

Believe in Messiah and you will have life eternal.

[alon]

Mar 10, 2015 4:46:39 GMT -8 johnd said:

As to them making a good argument... all scripture makes for a good argument especially opposing opinion / speculation / and no scripture quotes.

You need a scripture reference that simply repeating the arguments doesn’t make them true? Or was there something else? Some things are self-evident; others can be proven by logic. I don’t believe I need a scripture reference for everything.

you were never saved in the first place if you do turn away from salvation.

Again, this has been dealt with and repeating it won’t make it true. But bottom line, if you want to believe that it won’t affect your own salvation. I only argue it here because, as I have said it is a dangerous doctrine.

You left the Church, or you left God?

Both; and with a vengeance. And partly because I too as a rebellious teenager was led down the garden path by “Eternal Security of the Believer.” It didn’t take long then to realize this, like so many things I was told in church was wrong.

And some walk away proving they were never saved.

Again, you are simply repeating your opinion as it was drilled into you in church.

Look, friend, your argument is with the Author of 1 John 2:19.

1 John 2:18-19 (ESV) Warning Concerning Antichrists- Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

This speaks of the Antichrist, and his types who will come; not of those who step out of His grace. That title “Warning Concerning Antichrists” is from the ESV, so in this case the translators agree with me. And there are other translations which title this passage similarly: the NSRV, NET, DLNT, EXB and others.

Samson was under the old covenant. The cross changes everything.

It changes everything and at the same time nothing. Let’s first look at the chapter you quoted from:

1 John 2:7-9 (ESV) Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.

The only thing different is in the TNK they looked forward to Yeshua, and now we look back. We have His example. But salvation was the same in the TNK as it is in the B’rith Chadasha. It was and is by grace, through faith/trust in God.

Romans 4:9-13 (ESV) Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

John 16:26–27 “In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.

John 3:16–18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And that proves what regarding eternal security? Relevance …

I quoted 1 Corinthians 5:5 to show what happens with extreme disobedience in the body of Messiah (believers).

1 Corinthians 5:5 (ESV) you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Again you simply repeat yourself as though this will make everything as you see it. This has nothing to do with believers throwing those they think are fallen away to ha’satan. I’ve known churches that did this, and they always seem to end up going to extremes. In some of the older AoG churches they’d throw you to the devil for wearing a small piece of jewelry! This included a wristwatch, bolo tie, wedding ring- anything at all.

This scripture deals with allowing those who want to step away from God’s grace to do so, and trust me when you do that the devil has a field day! In this way many are convinced that following Yeshua ain’t so bad after all! I was.

So look, if you want to hold onto that belief, by all means do so. But it should be apparent to you it won't fly here amongst those who have questioned what we were taught in church, thought about it and come to what we strive to attain, a rational decision on the topic. Not to say we can't be wrong; but here I think we've proven our point.

Dan C

[johnd]

Anti-anything is in opposition to the thing specified. Unbeliever / antichrist. Same difference.

Matthew 12:30 (NASB95)
30“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

And by your leaving God with a vengeance... did you return to God? Maybe you never left as much as you believe you did but rather did the Prodigal son gig or a denying disciple Simon Peter thing.

And as to your "logic"

Proverbs 14:12 (NASB95)
12There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

John 17:17 (NASB95)
17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

We DO need the Bible to determine all truth!

[alon]

Mar 10, 2015 14:44:56 GMT -8 johnd said:

Anti-anything is in opposition to the thing specified. Unbeliever / antichrist. Same difference.

Patently false. Every unbeliever is not an antichrist, otherwise no one would be saved.

Matthew 12:30 (NASB95)
30“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

And while we were unsaved (including falling away) we did scatter.

And by your leaving God with a vengeance... did you return to God? Maybe you never left as much as you believe you did but rather did the Prodigal son gig or a denying disciple Simon Peter thing.

And you now presume to tell me what my intentions were, what I did. I know; I was there. Just maybe I did exactly what I said I did.

And as to your "logic"

Proverbs 14:12 (NASB95)
12There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Agreed. Seems like what I have been saying all along. Except that you try to say there is no room for logic.

John 17:17 (NASB95)
17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

Again true, but irrelevant, or at the least ambiguous with regards to salvational security.

We DO need the Bible to determine all truth!

A very misleading statement. Yes, we need a good grounding in the Bible to help develop discernment, among other things. But still there are some statements that are obviously true and need no scriptural reference, and others can be made/proven by logic. You have not answered the core issue, but simply tried to sidestep it misusing scripture.

Dan C

[jimmie]

Mar 10, 2015 4:49:57 GMT -8 johnd said:

[The woman did not have eternal life already... the tree of life was in the garden as well. Why? If they had eternal life already? And why were they commanded to be fruitful and multiply (prior to the fall) if they would live forever?

Believe in Messiah and you will have life eternal.

So would the women have died anyway if she had never eaten the forbidden fruit?
The tree of life would have restored her eternal life. vs 22.
They were commanded to be fruitful and multiply to subdue the earth. I take that as meaning they were to turn the entire earth into a garden of Eden. That would be a bit much for two people to do.