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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 6, 2004 11:13:32 GMT -8
Amen Psalm 122.6, and Azumah, In fact, it is actually worse for those whom serve Him at some point in their life, and are known to be of Adonai, and then deny Him by their works in the end... "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the L'rd and Saviour Yeshua HaMashiach, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." 2Peter 2:20-22 The above underlined passages do not sound like they support salvational security when one rejects the truth. And, if we continue reading... "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit),
And have tasted the good word of G'd, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of G'd afresh, and put him to an open  ." Hebrews 6:4-6 Adonai, may we be given the grace (power) to serve you acceptably in this fallen world.B'Shem Yeshua |
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Angel
Junior Member
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6
Posts: 50
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Post by Angel on Apr 6, 2004 14:05:35 GMT -8
Adonai, may we be given the grace (power) to serve You acceptably in this fallen world.
~ This will be a portion of my daily prayer! |
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Post by LovingNeighbor on Jun 16, 2004 1:24:47 GMT -8
Shalom all,
Well my take on this subject is found in Rev.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
- in the book saved
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
- not in the book not saved
so if once saved always saved then you get written in the book and can't be erased, well what about these verses:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
If you were written in the book of life you had salvation, then if you can be blotted you can lose it. Of course no one wants to hear this because it means we are responsible for our choices. again Moses talkes of the same scenario of losing his citizenship in the kingdom.
Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Shalom
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Post by el Gusano on Jun 16, 2004 2:21:50 GMT -8
Then, I would be interested in seeing you explain the contradiction that you are creating. Since the book of Acts explicitly states (in one passage) that eternal salvation is eternal (actually, everlasting; eternal means without beginning or end or existing in such a way that time is meaningless and only God is eternal), this would be a contradiction. If there's a contradiction in Scripture, then you can't trust it and it should be thrown out. On the other hand, you can look at the passages. I'll post an excerpt from a decent article that I recently read: This willy-nilly translating and addition and ommission of words so popular with the KJV does nothing but confuse things. Here's the entire article talking about what "the life" is. (Right click and save it.) www.inthebeginning.org/kingdom/sweigart/life.pdf |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 16, 2004 9:30:31 GMT -8
The term "salvation" is a little more complex than most make it out to be. Salvation is not totally realized until we die, and are resurrected. Therefore, the books are open until the day we die as we can clearly see in Sha'ul's (Paul) following statements... "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Yeshua The Messiah. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of G'd in Yeshua The Messiah." - Philipians 3:11-14 There are many scriptures that do indeed point to the possibility of loosing one's salvation. If a person decides to turn on the faith that first saved them, they remove themselves from the saving hand of the Father... "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the L'rd and Saviour Yeshua HaMashiach, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."- 2Peter 2:20-22 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit),
And have tasted the good word of G'd, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of G'd afresh, and put him to an open ." Hebrews 6:4-6 Let us also interpret this from the foundation (TeNaKh)... "Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand." - Ezekiel 3:20 Don't get me wrong, I believe I am saved, and can be sure of this as long as don't reject my faith in the Good News. I don't loose, or attain my salvation directly by my works. But...my works do manifest my faith (as we can deny Him by our works)... " They profess that they know G'd; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." - Titus 1:16 But, this faith must be kept until we die... This is nodoubt a hotly debated subject, and I thank everyone beforehand for their continued love towards one another in discussing this. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by LovingNeighbor on Jun 16, 2004 10:41:15 GMT -8
Shalom all,
El Gusano, I believe your talking about this scripture as it is the only one in acts that refers to both eternal and salvation in the same proximity:
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Here it mentions everlastin life - but not everlasting salvation. The word everlasting is and can be used with a fixed time, just as we do not have everlasting life until we are given it. we work under the rules of time until we recieve everlasting life. Salvation happens at a point in time representing an event.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Here he talks about salvation but not with the phrase everlasting.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Here again he refers to everlasting life no mention of salvation. So clearly there is no contradictoin. Everlasting life is mentioned and salvation but not everlasting salvation. Salvation is a point of being saved. Like when Israel was saved from Pharoah with YHWH's mighty hand, but still many died in the wilderness, even if salvation happens at a point it doesn't mean it is ongoing. What comes to mind is the new kingdom. Will there still be free will? and if not why the seven thousand years of teaching mankind how to live and choose right. If it doesn't matter then what a waste. The kingdom I believe will still be us choosing to do good or evil. What is Yahushuah King for if there can be no wrong. we have no model of perpetual(everlasting) salvation and it can mean continual not only from before time or outside of time. Just as you can start a perpetual moving object, but it doesn't mean it was started before time. Anyway if there is another verse on perpetual salvation lets post it and discus the complex subject until we are all satisfied.
Shalom
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Post by el Gusano on Jun 16, 2004 13:45:52 GMT -8
No, I'm talking about Acts 16:30, 31: The question is, "what must I do to be saved?" The answer is, "believe (aorist, active, imperative) and you shall be saved (future, passive, indicative)." You believe punctiliarly (single action, not a process), and you shall (not may; no room for doubt) be saved.
Now, I don't think it's a cursory believe, as pisteuo implies more than that (when used as a present active participle, it is used as a noun for being faithful). If you unbelieve, you are not saved (Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, yet he who disbelieves shall be condemned.). However, if you believe (active) and quit believing (part./quit being faithful), that does not mean that you're headed for the lake of fire; you're still saved, but you lose your rewards or your inheritance.
In Acts 13:46048, there is no mention of everlasting life, only age-lasting life (the age to come).
New Testament everlasting is expressed in the phrase eijs tou<v aijw~nav tw~n aijw>nwn found in Galatians 1:5 and not in a single Greek word. Translated “unto to the ages of/from the ages.” Some other examples are found in Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18 Hebrews 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11.
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Post by LovingNeighbor on Jun 16, 2004 16:44:35 GMT -8
shalom all,
well, I think that the concept of salvation now is the problem. It takes away the right of YHWH to judge us and deem us worthy or not. IT's quite simple. What makes more sense. We are falling in or out of being saved, or that you can be on or off track and the final conclusion of the matter doesn't happen until after death when you are judged as a whole, with all you actions and choices. Salvation happens as an event, this is why the verses point to the future. Do this and you shall be saved. Shall is future and if in the mean time you change directions you will not. It's like the prodigal son he gets up and starts heading back to his father. If he changes his mind and turns back he will not recieve his reward. he repented and must stay on the path as best he can to get back to his father. Now grace comes in when his Father comes to him the difference when he wasn't quite there.
Belief you mentioned above is to trust in, not a one time thought but a state of thought. Like trust you can trust once and then stop trusting, you can believe at one point then stop believing.
Shalom
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Post by el Gusano on Jun 17, 2004 17:24:45 GMT -8
Yes, you are correct that if the prodigal son had not returned, he would not have received his reward; however, he would have still been a son. If he had died in the pig pen, he would not have been a pig, he would have been a son.
Both sons had an inheritance; one blew it. When he came back, he still had a small reward (a feast, a robe and a ring), but it was not the better inheritance.
"Believe" is an event that results in salvation: (
"Believing" (present, active, participle) is a process that ends in rewards; only the saved can be rewarded. The lost are already judged and at the end of the age, they will be dumped into the lake of fire (at the great white throne judgment). The saved are judged at the judgment seat of Christ, for their works.
To say anything else is contradictory to Scripture and if there's contradiction, why bother studying it?
It's important to remember that the lost are punished punitively and the saved are punished as chastisement. Two different concepts.
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Post by LovingNeighbor on Jul 22, 2004 0:05:16 GMT -8
Shalom all,
you said "belief is a one time event that gives you salvation"
Life or salvation, does not come from a one time event, but is an all the time choice, as wisdom which is the tree of life is consistently chosing the right things. the book is there to teach us how to make better choices which is choosing life not death. His son taught us how to choose life. but everybody wants to win the lottery and be fed but few want to learn to fish.
The inheritance was not small, because he repented and learned and had humility in his heart and his brother who obeyed had envy and hate.
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 22, 2004 6:54:09 GMT -8
My opinion on this subject is this. That no matter how many times a person sins they may always ask for forgiveness. Yet, there comes a point when someone starts asking forgiveness and not truly meaning it. At this point one has not truly asked for forgiveness. When one does not at least regret the sin, and they no longer have Yohshuah HaMoshiach on thier mind, they are no longer christian. To stay a christian one must regret thier sins and realize that Yohshuah HaMoshiach is the sacrifice for those sins. ;D Yet I could be wrong  , what are your opinions? |
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 23, 2004 10:39:15 GMT -8
I would say they are disobedient Christians. If you have a child, and he becomes a terrorist or a mass-murderer, he is still your child, even if he doesn't regret it. But, he has some serious punishment coming.
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 23, 2004 11:33:00 GMT -8
I know the point that you are trying to make, but what I am saying is that a person knows that any sin is a direct act against the Almighty. If your son becomes a terrorist, he can be forgiven; yet when he hurts you and than doesn't say a sorry or even care, then he has shown that he doesn't want your forgiveness, but rather just to be fed and basically mooche off you for a while.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 23, 2004 12:09:27 GMT -8
Shalom chaverim,
No doubt the scriptures attest that one can loose his/her salvation if he/she rejects what caused their salvation in the first place. If one obtained it by faith, than one can loose it for a rejection of that same faith (the scriptures I have provided in previous posts on this thread agree). LovingNeighbor is right in saying that salvation is a process as it is not fully realized until we recieve our new resurrected bodies, and until the great white throne judgment as seen in the book of Revelation. But, I agree with El Gusano when he states that the scriptures do communicate that at a given point we can be assured that we are sealed for salvation. Although, being sealed doesn't mean that we have fully realized salvation in it's complete sense, as we have not already attained salvation (Phl 3:12). But, we do recieve the guarantee of the Spirit of Elohim if we continue trusting in G'd until the end. And, this consequently is manifested by what we do (James 2:20). Chumash614 made a good point. Can we be forgiven if we don't ask for forgivness?
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 23, 2004 12:19:14 GMT -8
Bravo and Ameyn Reuel.
I must now go because I have to prepare for Shabbat. See you all on Sunday.
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." 
, what are your opinions?
from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
