johnd
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by johnd on Sept 15, 2013 9:57:44 GMT -8
The matter of the security of salvation is not really an issue in scripture. John 10:27-29, Jeremiah 32:40, 1 Corinthians 5:5
That one is actually saved is.
Matthew 7:21-29 (fixed typo today)
1 John 2:19 specifically states that if one can lose their salvation or in this case walk away from it, by their ability to do so it proves they were never actually saved in the first place.
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Post by alon on Sept 15, 2013 19:53:41 GMT -8
Shalom, johnd. Welcome to the forum! The matter of the security of salvation is not really an issue in scripture. John 10:27-29, Jeremiah 32:40, 1 Corinthians 5:5 This is what I was taught as a Southern Baptist, but it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. John 10: 27-29 " My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all ; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." This is all well and (very!) good. However it says nothing regarding the issue of free will and walking away. Your next scripture must be read in context to see what it is really saying: Jer 32:37-40 " Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation ; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety. "They shall be My people, and I will be their God ; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always , for their own good and for the good of their children after them. "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good ; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. "I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul. "For thus says the LORD, 'Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them." This sounds to me like it speaks of the national salvation of Israel in the end times. It does not speak to personal salvation in the present time. We have to watch for the "cherry-picking" of scripture that is so prevalent in Mainstream Christianity. Always read in context. 1 Corinthians 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.This one I can speak to personally. Sometimes, when we do walk away, God in His mercy allows ha satan to attack and harm us so that we will turn our hearts back to Him. If we repent, He is faithful to forgive. If we do not, He is just to judge, and we are not and will not be saved. This is the only way we can be saved by being delivered to ha satan. Ha satan DOES NOT save, he destroys. We are saved because, in the midst of the consequences we once again cry out to God for mercy. Again, read in context! Matthew 7:24-27 " Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and it fell -and great was its fall." This speaks of building your life on the foundation of God's word. There is no reference to "eternal security" in this passage. It could be inferred that if you walk away you destroy the foundation- which would in fact be the opposite of eternal security as taught in many mainstream churches. Nope. Read just even the previous verse and you'll see this talks about those who were lured in by the spirit of (and in the latter days the actual person of) the Antichrist. It does not say that a person who believes either can or cannot walk away. 1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour ; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared ; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. This stretching of the word to make it conform to church doctrine is another problem in mainstream Christianity. I know that some Messianics are guilty of these same types of things. I acknowledge that. However what we are talking about here is your list of typical mainstream dogmatic errors that many of us saw and walked away from even before we knew about Messianism. I doubt our salvation depends on which (if in fact either) of us is right. However there is a very real danger with the "saved by grace and good to go forever" mindset taught in mainstream churches; that is it tempts too many too successfully into sinning and thinking they are OK. God is never OK with sin- ESPECIALLY when it is done in His name! Dan C |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 5:43:33 GMT -8
Shalom, johnd. Welcome to the forum! The matter of the security of salvation is not really an issue in scripture. John 10:27-29, Jeremiah 32:40, 1 Corinthians 5:5 This is what I was taught as a Southern Baptist, but it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. John 10: 27-29 " My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all ; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." This is all well and (very!) good. However it says nothing regarding the issue of free will and walking away. Your next scripture must be read in context to see what it is really saying: Jer 32:37-40 " Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation ; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety. "They shall be My people, and I will be their God ; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always , for their own good and for the good of their children after them. "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good ; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. "I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul. "For thus says the LORD, 'Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them." This sounds to me like it speaks of the national salvation of Israel in the end times. It does not speak to personal salvation in the present time. We have to watch for the "cherry-picking" of scripture that is so prevalent in Mainstream Christianity. Always read in context. 1 Corinthians 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.This one I can speak to personally. Sometimes, when we do walk away, God in His mercy allows ha satan to attack and harm us so that we will turn our hearts back to Him. If we repent, He is faithful to forgive. If we do not, He is just to judge, and we are not and will not be saved. This is the only way we can be saved by being delivered to ha satan. Ha satan DOES NOT save, he destroys. We are saved because, in the midst of the consequences we once again cry out to God for mercy. Again, read in context! Matthew 7:24-27 " Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and it fell -and great was its fall." This speaks of building your life on the foundation of God's word. There is no reference to "eternal security" in this passage. It could be inferred that if you walk away you destroy the foundation- which would in fact be the opposite of eternal security as taught in many mainstream churches. Nope. Read just even the previous verse and you'll see this talks about those who were lured in by the spirit of (and in the latter days the actual person of) the Antichrist. It does not say that a person who believes either can or cannot walk away. 1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour ; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared ; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. This stretching of the word to make it conform to church doctrine is another problem in mainstream Christianity. I know that some Messianics are guilty of these same types of things. I acknowledge that. However what we are talking about here is your list of typical mainstream dogmatic errors that many of us saw and walked away from even before we knew about Messianism. I doubt our salvation depends on which (if in fact either) of us is right. However there is a very real danger with the "saved by grace and good to go forever" mindset taught in mainstream churches; that is it tempts too many too successfully into sinning and thinking they are OK. God is never OK with sin- ESPECIALLY when it is done in His name!Dan C Hebrews 5:1 to 6:6 has an interesting view on those who regress in their Christian life. |
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Post by visionary on Sept 16, 2013 6:50:52 GMT -8
Free Will has always been and always will be, so being saved one moment and losing it the next is based upon the next decision. Losing salvation is a step by step process just as was getting salvation in the first place. It is like having the holy spirit and then speaking like the devil the next. Peter can relate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 7:16:22 GMT -8
Free Will has always been and always will be, so being saved one moment and losing it the next is based upon the next decision. Losing salvation is a step by step process just as was getting salvation in the first place. It is like having the holy spirit and then speaking like the devil the next. Peter can relate. Yes, but the Hebrews text is pretty final, wouldn't you say? Once you've stepped that far away you are OUT (by your own choice, of course). |
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Post by alon on Sept 16, 2013 8:52:05 GMT -8
Hebrews 5:1 to 6:6 has an interesting view on those who regress in their Christian life. That is a very tough passage, and I don't really have the time right now to comment on it. But it does point out the very real danger of the mainstream idea of saved by grace and too often without true repentance; and the idea that no matter what you do you are saved and have "eternal security," even should you later become a Satanist. Dan C |
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Post by visionary on Sept 21, 2013 8:06:17 GMT -8
Free Will has always been and always will be, so being saved one moment and losing it the next is based upon the next decision. Losing salvation is a step by step process just as was getting salvation in the first place. It is like having the holy spirit and then speaking like the devil the next. Peter can relate. Yes, but the Hebrews text is pretty final, wouldn't you say? Once you've stepped that far away you are OUT (by your own choice, of course). That relates well to Yeshua's warning... seven more demons worse than before the cleaning. .. but at the same time 70 x 7 is a door always open to return, and like the prodigal son coming to his senses realizes there is no place like home. |
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Post by alon on Sept 21, 2013 9:46:57 GMT -8
That relates well to Yeshua's warning... seven more demons worse than before the cleaning. .. but at the same time 70 x 7 is a door always open to return, and like the prodigal son coming to his senses realizes there is no place like home. Well said! Dan C |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 11:18:45 GMT -8
Yes, but the Hebrews text is pretty final, wouldn't you say? Once you've stepped that far away you are OUT (by your own choice, of course). That relates well to Yeshua's warning... seven more demons worse than before the cleaning. .. but at the same time 70 x 7 is a door always open to return, and like the prodigal son coming to his senses realizes there is no place like home. Mmmmm - scripture begs to differ  |
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Post by alon on Sept 21, 2013 13:16:18 GMT -8
Mmmmm - scripture begs to differ You're up late ... ;D Hope everything's OK. Jer. 18: 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
Joel 2:13 Tear your heart, not your garments; and turn to ADONAI your God. For he is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace, and willing to change his mind about disaster.
Exod. 32: 9 The LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 "Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand ? 12 … Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. … 14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jer. 26:3 'Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.'
Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country ? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.
Jonah 3:9-10 "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish." When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
Exodus 32:14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. (NAS) (the CJB also says “ADONAI then changed his mind,” the KJV says He “repented,” NIV & ESV say He “relented,” and YLT renders this “and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.”)Looking at scripture as a whole, we see that God does relent when there is a change of heart. I have to believe there is hope, or many of us are doomed with no chance of redemption. What then? Should we join the Dispensationists in spreading doctrines of destruction amongst God’s people, because we are declared enemies of God by past actions? Or possibly go all out and worship evil? No, I think the better path is to return as a prodigal to the Father’s house in the hopes of being just a servant there. Dan C |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 14:00:46 GMT -8
Mmmmm - scripture begs to differ You're up late ... ;D Hope everything's OK. Jer. 18: 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
Joel 2:13 Tear your heart, not your garments; and turn to ADONAI your God. For he is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace, and willing to change his mind about disaster.
Exod. 32: 9 The LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 "Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand ? 12 … Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. … 14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jer. 26:3 'Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.'
Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country ? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.
Jonah 3:9-10 "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish." When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
Exodus 32:14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. (NAS) (the CJB also says “ADONAI then changed his mind,” the KJV says He “repented,” NIV & ESV say He “relented,” and YLT renders this “and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.”)Looking at scripture as a whole, we see that God does relent when there is a change of heart. I have to believe there is hope, or many of us are doomed with no chance of redemption. What then? Should we join the Dispensationists in spreading doctrines of destruction amongst God’s people, because we are declared enemies of God by past actions? Or possibly go all out and worship evil? No, I think the better path is to return as a prodigal to the Father’s house in the hopes of being just a servant there. Dan C I live in England at The Hebers, in North Manchester, Lancashire, so the time is only 11pm here, as I write. I shall not go to sleep for another 3 hours!  I'm a late to bed and early to rise sort of person. All is fine, thanks - just that our time zones are very different. I think the key to the text is that it is about people who purposely and knowingly choose to remove themselves from G_d after having known him in a very real and personal relationship - it is not about the average believer who backslides a bit. The language of the text makes it very clear that if you have been so very close to him and you then turn directly and purposefully against him, you will not change your mind and return to him, simply because your pride would never allow it, and so your sin continues to be the cause of his death on the cross in to your  . |
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73 
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Post by Miykhael on Sept 21, 2013 15:32:02 GMT -8
Does Reading (יְחֶזְקֵאל) Y'chezk'el Ezekiel 18 help?
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johnd
New Member
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Post by johnd on Mar 8, 2015 20:43:49 GMT -8
It doesn't have to be divisive. It's as simple as reading your Bible.
can't have your salvation stolen.
John 10:28–29 (NASB95)
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
can't sin your salvation away.
1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB95)
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
can't turn away from salvation.
Jeremiah 32:40 (NASB95)
40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
you were never saved in the first place if you do turn away from salvation.
1 John 2:19 (NASB95)
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Oops, I see I already posted this I just did not spell out everything.
It really is about whether or not you are truly saved rather than any security issue once you are saved.
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Post by alon on Mar 9, 2015 0:16:24 GMT -8
I believe all those points were already answered. Simply repeating them does not a good argument make.you were never saved in the first place if you do turn away from salvation.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Mar 9, 2015 12:43:20 GMT -8
Johnd
How would you answer the following:
Gen. 2:4 And the serpent said unto the women, Ye shall not surely die:
Didn’t the woman have eternal life? Isn’t the serpent’s lie that the woman can disobey God and still have eternal life? The original lie is still going strong. You can disobey God and still have eternal life.
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- there are 70 faces to 
I'm a late to bed and early to rise sort of person. All is fine, thanks - just that our time zones are very different.
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