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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 23, 2004 12:43:36 GMT -8
Shabbat shalom achi!  |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 14, 2010 13:59:18 GMT -8
This thread brings back some old memories of when I attended State Churches. When I was with the Baptist who, believe in security of the believer, I would bring up scriptures that seem to indicate that salvation can be lost. When with those who believe you can loose your salvation, I would bring up scriptures that seem to indicate that salvation can’t be lost. In the end, I discovered that both positions have some truth and falsehood in them.
My current understanding of this issue is that servants are not secure in their salvation as seen in the parable of the unmerciful servant who had received forgiveness of his debt but was then cast out because he didn’t have mercy on his fellow servant. Or in the parable of the talents in which the last servant loses his talent. These would be those who have tasted the good word but then fall away sealing their fate of being cast out.
Sons on the other hand are secure in their salvation being sealed and holding the earnest of the spirit in our hearts. Jesus taught no parable in which a son is cast out. A son may stray but Jesus is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us.
Can one move from servant to son?
Prov. 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If you have received Jesus, you have been given the power to become the son of God and thus be secure in your salvation which he perfected. The seed that falls on good ground is never in danger of being rooted up even though tares are sown among them.
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Post by zionlion on Apr 14, 2010 19:28:48 GMT -8
Shalom jimmie,
Yes, one is secure in the covenant as long as one continues in faith in Messiah. (Matthew 24:13)
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Post by jimmie on Apr 15, 2010 8:24:14 GMT -8
I don’t think Matt 24:13 calls us to endure the commandments of God unto the end. Rather it calls us to endure the persecution of the world/non-believers unto the end. We gain strength for that endurance by observing all things whatsoever he has commanded.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
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Post by zionlion on Apr 15, 2010 18:08:58 GMT -8
I agree.
But persecution and suffering can cause one to lose one's faith, thus breaking the covenant.
I see nothing in the whole of Scripture which indicates that a person who is out of covenant fellowship with Elohim at the end of this life has any chance of entering the Kingdom.
This applies to everyone, even sons (and daughters).
Blessings
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Post by jimmie on Apr 16, 2010 9:02:55 GMT -8
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It appears that Jesus expected some who broke some commandments and though others to do likewise would be in the kingdom of heaven.
I cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It appears that Paul expected some folks to be saved even though their works were not acceptable.
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Post by zionlion on Apr 16, 2010 20:56:08 GMT -8
Is there not a difference between breaking a commandment and denying that Yeshua is the Son of G-d? Would you agree that Paul is speaking of believers; not people who once believed but have changed their minds and have become unbelievers? In a nutshell, every believer is capable of falling away as Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly teaches: "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted of the good word of G-d and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of G-d and put Him to open  ."Shabbat Shalom |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 18, 2010 16:58:22 GMT -8
Shalom,
I agree that there are plenty of scriptures, as seen in this thread, that teach that one can lose their salvation. If you can gain salvation through faith and trust in God alone...than you can loose it through turning on that saving faith and trust. It is fairly simple Biblical cause and effect.
But, there is a difference between turning against and denouncing the faith that once led to your salvation and struggling with a particular sin in your life. The fact is, if you struggle against that sin it is evidence that you still have your saving faith, but that you are simply struggling to live a holy life or are quenching the Spirit that is within you.
Does this make sense to everyone?
Shalom u'vracha aleychem b'shem Yeshua HaMashiach,
L'chaim b'Yeshua!
Reuel
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Apr 19, 2010 6:12:17 GMT -8
I believe that the confusion which arises on this issue is almost always directly related to the definition of "salvation." The mainstream Christian definition of salvation is not Biblical, but rather, is a man made doctrine. They have reduced salvation to something akin to "fire insurance." Meaning, you are "saved from the tortures of an eternal hell." Which they claim can be secured for eternity with a simple confession of faith in Yeshua. Does the Bible actually teach this? Not by a longshot!
In my next post I would like to address some of the erroneous statements made on the first page of this thread.
Shalom
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Post by jimmie on Apr 19, 2010 14:00:54 GMT -8
Reuel,
Denying that Jesus is the Son of God is breaking a command.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
The wages of sin is death. No matter how “small” or “great” the sin. Jesus fulfiled the requirement of death for the joint heirs. However there are some who have tasted the gift but are not joint heirs.
Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How could Jesus tell these people that he “never knew” them, if they were once counted as heir? If one divorces his wife he can never say he “never knew” her. These were never counted as joint heirs/sons.
David Ben Yosef,
Yes, words do have definitions. I look forward to your comments in regards to the meaning of salvation. I, too, have some reservations of how the state church defines it. I have “sold” a fire insurance policy or two myself.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Apr 23, 2010 20:07:49 GMT -8
David Ben Yosef, Yes, words do have definitions. I look forward to your comments in regards to the meaning of salvation. I, too, have some reservations of how the state church defines it. I have “sold” a fire insurance policy or two myself. Then you know exactly what I'm talking about. When I get some time on my hands, I'll elaborate, but I can give you a taste of what I would like to share at that time. For one thing, the Jews correctly discern, and define the meaning of Gehenna. Which is a temporary judgment from HaShem, that purifies the soul in order to be fit to enter the Kingdom. Christians, and many Messianics believe in a sadistic G-d who tortures his creation for all eternity. This is what they are "saved" from. The Bible doesn't teach that garbage anywhere within it's pages. Also, the Jewish concept of salvation is primarily national, rather than individual. Where as the Christian, as well as the Messianic concept is primarily a personal salvation from hell. It's utterly selfish in nature, which is the exact opposite of what HaShem desires of our hearts and minds. Anyway, I'll write more later when things die down a bit for me. Right now it's Spring cleaning time, inside the house, as well as in the huge yard I have. Fun fun fun....LOL Shalom |
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Post by ronshua on Mar 2, 2013 11:06:56 GMT -8
Greetings Saints , I've been looking for my long held belief and don't see a word of it . " saved by faith " . An example ; Ephesians 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 2 Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins, 2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others, 6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus, 8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, ( We have no faith and it's a gift of GOD , where do we get this " gift of GOD " ? Does Scripture tell us , plainly ? Yes ! ) Acts 2:38 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, ( The " gift of GOD " . Can a believer lose this " gift of GOD "? What does Scripture say about this subject . ) Hebrews 5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 8 through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, 9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, 12 for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what [are] the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food, 13 for every one who is partaking of milk [is] unskilled in the word of righteousness -- for he is an infant, ( " righteousness " ; Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, `Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfill all righteousness,' then he doth suffer him. ) 14 and of perfect men is the strong food, who because of the use are having the senses exercised, unto the discernment both of good and of evil. ( <== " good and evil ", remind you of another story , Genesis maybe ? ) Hebrews 6 4 for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit, 5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age, 6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public . 7 For earth, that is drinking in the rain many times coming upon it, and is bringing forth herbs fit for those because of whom also it is dressed, doth partake of blessing from God, 8 and that which is bearing thorns and briers [is] disapproved of, and nigh to cursing, whose end [is] for burning; 9 and we are persuaded, concerning you, beloved, the things that are better, and accompanying salvation, though even thus we speak, Mark 3 28 `Verily I say to you, that all the sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and evil speakings with which they might speak evil, 29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' May my peace be to all , in that Name , Yeshua . The servant ron . |
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Post by ronshua on Mar 3, 2013 8:52:25 GMT -8
Greetings Believer , do you give any credence to, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words ? The words translated 'godhead' in most Scripture translations are a corruptions ! 'godhead' is not in any early canon . www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0001217Strong's didn't give 'godhead' a number , translators corrupt two words " DIVINE, DIVINITY " to buy and sell there tainted goods . As for Acts 17:29 & Hebrews 1:3 , it's Strong's number 5480,charagma> Graven ; The identical to the MARK of Rev, 13 ! Topic: Mark (Noun) <1,,5480,charagma> denotes "a stamp, impress," translated "mark" in Rev. 13:16,17, etc. See GRAVEN. Act:17:29 “Yes, we are God’s children. So we shouldn’t think that God is made out of gold or silver or stone. He isn’t a statue planned and made by clever people Hebrews 1: 3 The Son is the gleaming brightness of God’s glory. He is the exact likeness of God’s being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. He provided the way for people to be made pure from sin. Then he sat down at the right hand of the King, the Majesty in heaven. Topic: Graven <1,,5480,charagma> from charasso, "to engrave" (akin to charakter, "an impress," RV, marg., of Heb. 1:3), denotes (a) "a mark" or "stamp," e.g., Rev. 13:16,17; 14:9,11; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4; 15:2 in some mss.; (b) "a thing graven," Acts 17:29. Love your Scripture , save for the obvious corruptions . But please tell me did you just over look Acts 2:38 ? Where the Assembles of our ABBA started , " 3,000 that first day " And Acts 10 , the first " little dogs " entered the Kingdom ? Baptism Water baptism ; 37 When the people heard this, their hearts were filled with . They said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” 38 Peter replied, “All of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then your sins will be forgiven. You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children. It is also for all who are far away. It is for all whom the Lord our God will choose.” 40 Peter said many other things to warn them. He begged them, “Save yourselves from these evil people.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized. About 3,000 people joined the believers that day. 34 Then Peter began to speak. “I now realize how true it is that God treats everyone the same,” he said. 35 “He accepts people from every nation. He accepts all who have respect for him and do what is right. 36 “You know the message God sent to the people of Israel. It is the good news of peace through Jesus Christ. He is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened all through Judea. It started in Galilee after John preached about baptism. 38 You know how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. Jesus went around doing good. He healed all who were under the devil’s power. God was with him. 44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 Some Jewish believers had come with Peter. They were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on those who weren’t Jews. 46 They heard them speaking in languages they had not known before. They also heard them praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. New International Reader's Version (NIRV) Sorry to see your stand on faith . Peace to you and all that's has been entrusted to your care . The servant ron . |
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Post by alon on Mar 3, 2013 20:36:33 GMT -8
I was raised a Baptist, really big on eternal security. But like many other things Baptist I've come to a different conclusion. I think we have eternal security in that God will never forsake or betray us, nor can anyone else take us from Him. But we can step away. I base this on the fact that often in scripture our relationship to ha Moshiach is compared to a wedding, where He is the groom and we are the bride. Mat 22 & Rev 19 for example. Consider then what was said about Israel, our grande example of the greater body of believers in Jer 3:8, "I saw that even though backsliding Isra'el had committed adultery, so that I had sent her away and given her a divorce document ..." So we can force a Holy God into giving us a divorce. We can take heart though, in that He goes on "14 "Return, backsliding children," says ADONAI; "for I am your master. I will take you, one from a city, two from a family, and bring you to Tziyon." God is faithful, and calls us to repentance. But a divorced woman is not married, so unless we repent I take that to mean we are in sin, under the law and not under grace. Another reason is my understanding of the Hebrew marriage customs. As I understand (and feel free to tell me if I'm wrong) once the groom started the proposal, he was committed. The bride could back out any time until she and her groom drank of the 4th cup, which for us will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I'm sure things varied from time and place, but my understanding is not that much. (And yes, you can take that either as it didn't vary that much, or my understanding isn't that much. As I said, feel free to correct me as learning this on my own is fraught with perils!) At any rate, as I see that picture we can walk away, but He will not put us away without cause. God is faithful. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Mar 3, 2013 21:07:40 GMT -8
... But, there is a difference between turning against and denouncing the faith that once led to your salvation and struggling with a particular sin in your life. The fact is, if you struggle against that sin it is evidence that you still have your saving faith, but that you are simply struggling to live a holy life or are quenching the Spirit that is within you. Does this make sense to everyone? Shalom u'vracha aleychem b'shem Yeshua HaMashiach, L'chaim b'Yeshua! Reuel Yes. I have in my notes that the ancient Rabbi's broke sin into three types. avon- iniquity, weakness, the tendency to fall under temptation. chetah- the act of violating YHWH's principles, but not identifying with it. You fell into temptation. shagah- defection. To deliberately enter into counter covenant with ha satan. A clear act of rebellion that identifies you with the lawless one. It is here that we step clearly outside grace and under the law. Under that set of definitions, your statement makes perfect sense. Dan C note: these definitions come originally from some of my books by J. Klein and A. Spears |
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and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. [Numbers 15:16]
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