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Post by el Gusano on Mar 12, 2004 14:44:02 GMT -8
As per Reuel's request, I've started a new thread on the subject of salvational security. I am reposting my entire post from the other thread. This is not the entirety of my views, but should be a good starting point.
Salvation and salvational security is probably one of the most divisive subjects in Christianity today. However, when examined closely, it is spelled out clearly in Scriptures. Turn to Acts 16:30-31: “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” This is the only place in the Bible in which saved is both in the question and in the answer. Let’s look at this passage a little closer.
“Believe”, in Acts 16:31, is the Greek word, “pisteuo” and is aorist, active, imperative. What does this mean? It means that it is a punctiliar action that is commanded, not requested, to be performed by the person to whom it is addressed and the act cannot be reversed. The word “believe” in this passage is very interesting in that its grammar makes a very pointed fact about how to be saved. “Shall be saved” is in the future, passive, indicative, which indicates it is simply a statement of fact. Salvation is an event. When you trust Jesus the Christ, you are born into the family, and you become his child.
This action cannot be reversed. Anyone born into a family, regardless of what he does, is still part of that family.
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Post by Todah Yeshua on Mar 12, 2004 15:29:40 GMT -8
That was very powerful!! Thanks for sharing. I just thought that I would add this one, because I love it.
This is so powerful!!
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
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Post by Abramben on Mar 13, 2004 16:43:12 GMT -8
As per Reuel's request, I've started a new thread on the subject of salvational security. I am reposting my entire post from the other thread. This is not the entirety of my views, but should be a good starting point. Salvation and salvational security is probably one of the most divisive subjects in Christianity today. However, when examined closely, it is spelled out clearly in Scriptures. Turn to Acts 16:30-31: “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” This is the only place in the Bible in which saved is both in the question and in the answer. Let’s look at this passage a little closer. “Believe”, in Acts 16:31, is the Greek word, “pisteuo” and is aorist, active, imperative. What does this mean? It means that it is a punctiliar action that is commanded, not requested, to be performed by the person to whom it is addressed and the act cannot be reversed. The word “believe” in this passage is very interesting in that its grammar makes a very pointed fact about how to be saved. “Shall be saved” is in the future, passive, indicative, which indicates it is simply a statement of fact. Salvation is an event. When you trust Jesus the Christ, you are born into the family, and you become his child. This action cannot be reversed. Anyone born into a family, regardless of what he does, is still part of that family. Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent. Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 14, 2004 17:06:37 GMT -8
Abramben,
So, are you saying that one can loose his/her salvation?
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Abramben on Mar 15, 2004 0:28:18 GMT -8
Abramben, So, are you saying that one can loose his/her salvation? Shalom, Reuel Shalom Reuel, It does not matter what I say, what matters it what Messiah said. According to the scriptures I gave, what would happen to the believers if they did not take heed and repent? Abramben |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 15, 2004 18:56:00 GMT -8
Abramben, Good answer, and I agree.  Shalom, Zealot |
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Mar 17, 2004 17:05:27 GMT -8
el Gusano, What does this mean? It means that it is a punctiliar action that is commanded, not requested, to be performed by the person to whom it is addressed and the act cannot be reversed. Curt: The word "act" seems to indicate the word believe is more than just a mental process. The devil also believes in Jesus. I like to think the word believe means to "be-living like Jesus". Could it also mean it is commanded you "be-living" like Jesus? Maybe what can't be reversed is "the living like Jesus" if you wish to be saved. Could it also be possible that you aren't literally "born" into the family until Jesus's return?  |
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 19, 2004 1:23:04 GMT -8
You are saved by the aorist verb "believe"; you please God by the noun "faith". That's what Scripture says. It doesn't say anything about be-living or anything like that.
The aorist tense of a verb is punctiliar. It is graphed as a dot. It is an event. It's like pulling the trigger on a gun; it cannot be undone and it is not continuing action. Jesus Christ made it simple and easy to be saved by His death upon the cross.
You are correct in one thing however: it is not a casual "believe". It has the preposition "epi" with it. Satan believes in God, just as I believe the sky is blue.
The verb believe is an aorist, active, imperative. We already know what aorist is and active is self-explanatory. Imperative means that it is a command; you can either obey or not. If you command your child to clean his room, it may happen or it may not. But, the result of following the command to believe results in the action, "shall be saved". "Shall be saved" is future, passive, indicative. Indicative simply means that it's a statement of fact and there's no question about the action. Future means what it sounds like and passive means that it's a passive action on the part of the person to whom it's referring.
When you're born from above (at the moment you believe), you're in the family of God. Your DNA cannot be changed. You cannot be unborn.
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Mar 19, 2004 16:25:11 GMT -8
el Gusano, I do agree with a lot of what you say. Such as we have the freedom of choice to obey or not to obey and also with "shall be saved is in the future. I used the word be-living (a word I made up because it is so closely spelled as believing) to show the idea that believe is more than just a mental process but also involves action on the part of the Christian. I think the overall picture of scripture would support that believe also involves becoming like Jesus. This verse by itself leaves one to believe it might be just a strong mental process. I couldn't imagine anyone in the Kingdom of Heaven who was there and didn't want to be like and live like Jesus did. In fact I would be willing to say those who strongly say they believe on Jesus and don't keep His commandments and want to live like Him are lying about the believing part. Give me some Bible verses about the subject of "born again". It has always intrigued me when people have said they have been born again and would like to understand more. Especially, give me a verse about the when part because I'm still leaning towards we are born again upon our ressurection from the dead. ." 18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, and the firstborn from among the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." Also you said "Your DNA cannot be changed, You cannot be unborn." It may not be possible to be unborn but it is inevitable you will die. If anyone be in His Kingdom they must be ressurected from the dead and then there bodies will be changed and probably their DNA also. " 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but butbut we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed." By the way I admire your knowledge of the Greek language. I wish I would be able to use that approach in addition to my Bible study. I still think their are language experts who disagree among themselves as to meaning. |
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 19, 2004 17:17:07 GMT -8
Are you talking about entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavens or eternal salvation? There are several words translated as “saved”. In Luke 1:71, it is salvation from our enemies. In Matthew 8:25 and 14:30, it is physical salvation. In Acts 16:30-31; it is salvation of the spirit. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus is talking to Nicodemus here. Nicodemus is a Pharisee, and should know these things. He may know these things and is just asking rhetorically. “Out of water and of the Spirit” is a compound prepositional phrase. As such, either both parts are literal or both parts are figurative. It’s either real water and real spirit or it’s figurative water and figurative spirit. This passage is talking about baptism and the Holy Spirit. This is talking about entrance into the Kingdom. There are those that teach that baptism is necessary for spirit salvation, but that is just false teaching. Teaching that spirit salvation and the Kingdom are both the same thing is simply contradictory to Scripture. Spirit salvation is in John 3:3: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. The word that’s translated “again”, is translated as “from above” down in verse 31. [John 3:31] John 3:3 should read “born from above”. “See” is a casual glance and does not imply any sort of participation. To see the Kingdom, you have to be born from above, or saved (salvation of the spirit). To enter into the Kingdom, you have to be born of water and of the Spirit. But, John 3:5 says, “unless a man be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter”. It may or may not happen. Just being baptized doesn’t guarantee an entrance into the Kingdom, but is a necessary requirement. Seeing it, you are saved, entering it, you are ruling and reigning (qualified, based on works), which is salvation of the soul. (This is where be-living would fit in. ) |
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 19, 2004 17:21:13 GMT -8
BTW, most of the disagreements among the language experts stem from preconceived notions and theology. I have had to un-learn some of the things that I was taught as a child. I've met others that say, "well, this doesn't fit with what I think, so it must be incorrect".
Personally, I think that's why there are so many sects and also why more don't teach from the original languages. If they taught from the original languages, there would be fewer sects. There would still be some because of disagreements about what is said, but far fewer. (They would also have to lose some of the pre-conceived ideas.)
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 19, 2004 23:37:29 GMT -8
Shalom Curt, and El Gusano, You have been busy while I have been out. Good discussion thus far. El Gusano, I would be interested to see how you interpret the following scripture.... "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open  ." Hebrews 6:4-6 Shalom, Reuel |
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Mar 30, 2004 17:59:53 GMT -8
el Gusano, Please explain in greater detail, one of your following statements. "There are those that teach that baptism is necessary for spirit salvation, but that is just false teaching." Exactly which spirit is that? |
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Angel
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"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6
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Post by Angel on Apr 5, 2004 19:43:48 GMT -8
This is probably one of the biggest topics for debate among believers - from many denominations.
I am currently reading an e-book "Believer's Conditional Security" which is available thru www.evangelicaloutreach.org
This book is a comprehensive refutation of the "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" (or "OSAS" ) teaching that is propragated by many modern Christian teachers & pastors. I have not had a chance to review all of the material (there are over 800 pages), so I'm not advocating or denying it's teachings, but I keep going back in my mind to the passage of scripture that contains the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:4-15):
[/i] 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8 "Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." 9 His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND. 11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.[/color][/ul] This is one of the few parables that Yeshua actually explained of those "who had ears to hear"... A key point: without the daily reading/hearing/studying of the Word, the soil may not remain "good" and we will not bear fruit! My fear is that there are many " dead churches " that tend to cater to what the people want to hear, rather than it's leaders telling them the TRUTH of Yeshua's Word! I believe that most people want to believe in "Salvation security" because it gives them a false sense of security so that if they continue to live in a blatantly sinful way without fear of eternal consequence: it's okay "because once I was saved"! I know that it is not our place to attempt to judge a person's heart: only our Father in heaven knows the truth of one's heart... and only our Father has the right to judge the actions of each individual. But using suicide as a prime example: (as a survivor of suicide by several members of my family) how can I trust that this person, who cause SO much hurt & pain for his/her family left behind, could be welcomed into an eternity with our heavenly Father? A G-d who hates sin so much that even Yeshua hung on the cross & cried out "My G-d, My G-d, why you have forsaken me?" when He bore the great burden of all of our sins to the point that the Yeshua himself felt the schism between Himself & His Father because of the sin that G-d could not look upon... To keep it simple, I lean on Joshua 24:15 - "...but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"Another interesting piece of scripture that I wonder about comes from the story of Ananias & his wife, Saphira, in Acts 5:1-11. From all accounts, Ananias & his wife, Saphira were part of the 1st Century "church"... and although we don't know their hearts (during the time when they became believers) we can assume from the fact that Peter and the others in the community knew them well and welcomed them as part of their spiritual family, that they were true believers -- who wanted to give back to the community, but in a "not-so-honest fashion". My question is this: if Ananias & Sapphira were true and joyful believers and since G-d struck them dead because of their lie to G-d, what lesson about "salvation security" is there in this Word? [/color]
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Post by azumah on Apr 6, 2004 9:05:06 GMT -8
I agree with most of you in this issue. If there is one thing that we have to do, it is to repent from our sins. Our sinful nature is the only reason CHRIST died and rose. HE did not do it so we could speak in tongues, be able to prophecy, or have ministries. HE did it solely for our sins. The two passages that speak most strongly to me about this are Matthew 7:21-23:
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV
And Luke 13:26,27:
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV
Luke 13:26-27:
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV
Luke 13:26-27
26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
NIV
Luke 13:26-27
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
KJV
If we are workers of iniquity, it doesn't matter what we do for the kingdom. We will not be worthy to enter in.
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